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Kommissar Kel wrote: It is not a matter of shooting one less weapon, it is a matter of having one less weapon to shoot.
You may fire up to 4(the full BS part doesn't really matter as it is assumptive in the discussion) as a Base rule, The Vector Strike counts as Firing a weapon; you now have 1 less weapon from the 4 to fire, it does not matter how many weapons the Flyer has.
Why wouldn't it matter? The rules no where give a model permission to shoot a weapon it does not have. The full BS part matters in context because as I have demonstrated, a flyer with more than 4 weapons may shoot more than 4 weapons. A flyer with less than 4 weapons cannot possibly shoot 4 weapons.
You need to re-read what I wrote, I didn't say it does not matter, I said it wasn't a matter. The two mean wholly different things.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
VS does not refer to firing any particular weapon. An FMC with zero weapons can still VS. I see no reason that an FMC with a weapon should have to count has having fired that weapon to VS when an FMC with no weapon can VS without having a weapon to count as such. If a Hellturkey has it's weapon destroyed and Vector Strikes, does it count as having fired a non-existent weapon? No.
Counting as firing a weapon has nothing to do with any particular weapon it may or may not have.
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change.
Kommissar Kel wrote: It is not a matter of shooting one less weapon, it is a matter of having one less weapon to shoot.
You may fire up to 4(the full BS part doesn't really matter as it is assumptive in the discussion) as a Base rule, The Vector Strike counts as Firing a weapon; you now have 1 less weapon from the 4 to fire, it does not matter how many weapons the Flyer has.
Why wouldn't it matter? The rules no where give a model permission to shoot a weapon it does not have. The full BS part matters in context because as I have demonstrated, a flyer with more than 4 weapons may shoot more than 4 weapons. A flyer with less than 4 weapons cannot possibly shoot 4 weapons.
You need to re-read what I wrote, I didn't say it does not matter, I said it wasn't a matter. The two mean wholly different things.
Right; That's what I get for being distracted by children.
The rules give permission to fire up to 4 weapons; just because the HellTurkey does not have 4 weapons does not reduce the number of weapons capable of being fired. Vector Strike counts as shooting a weapon. In the case of Vector Strike the Hell Turkey can fire more than 1 weapon.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
The rules give permission to fire up to 4 weapons; just because the HellTurkey does not have 4 weapons does not reduce the number of weapons capable of being fired. Vector Strike counts as shooting a weapon. In the case of Vector Strike the Hell Turkey can fire more than 1 weapon.
Actually, by that logic the hell drake is capable of firing an infinite number of weapons: 4 at full BS and an infinite remainder as snap shots. Why? Because vehicles are capable of firing all their weapons every turn. Thus, the actual limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire should be determined based on the actual number of weapons they are equipped with. A vehicle with 20 weapons could by RAW shoot all 20 every turn, even if it's a zooming flyer.
PanzerLeader wrote: Thus, the actual limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire should be determined based on the actual number of weapons they are equipped with.
You obviously wouldn't say this without rule support - mind citing some?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
PanzerLeader wrote: Thus, the actual limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire should be determined based on the actual number of weapons they are equipped with.
You obviously wouldn't say this without rule support - mind citing some?
I cited all the vehicle shooting rules earlier, but to recap: a stationary vehicle can fire all it's weapons, a vehicle that moved at combat speed can fire one weapon at full ballistic skill and fire snap shots with the remainder and a vehicle that moved at cruising speed may only fire snap shots (page 279 in the eBook). The flyer rules state that a zooming flyer may shoot up to four weapons at full BS when moving at cruising or combat speed. The flyer is still allowed to shoot any additional weapons beyond four as snap shots per the base vehicle rules.
The rules use the word "all" to describe how many weapons a vehicle may fire. To define all, you have to assume it refers to the number and type of weapons listed in the vehicles entry. Thus a vehicle with only one weapon can only ever fire one weapon. If you assume that a zooming flyer can always shoot 4 weapons at full BS EVEN IF THOSE WEAPONS DONT ACTUALLY EXIST IN THE VEHICLES RULES, then you also have to assume that it can fire an indefinite number of weapons as snap shots per turn even though those weapons also don't exist. In effect, a vehicle has an undefined number of weapons unless you assume based on the word "all" that the limit of weapons a vehicle can fire is the number and type given in the profile.
How many people have to tell you the same thing before it sinks in?
1) Your can fire 4 weapons as a zooming flyer
2) VS counts as firing one weapon. ( not a specific weapon)
3) after a VS, a zooming flyer may fire 3 weapons
This is pretty simple
insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.
PanzerLeader wrote: Thus, the actual limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire should be determined based on the actual number of weapons they are equipped with.
You obviously wouldn't say this without rule support - mind citing some?
I cited all the vehicle shooting rules earlier, but to recap: a stationary vehicle can fire all it's weapons, a vehicle that moved at combat speed can fire one weapon at full ballistic skill and fire snap shots with the remainder and a vehicle that moved at cruising speed may only fire snap shots (page 279 in the eBook). The flyer rules state that a zooming flyer may shoot up to four weapons at full BS when moving at cruising or combat speed. The flyer is still allowed to shoot any additional weapons beyond four as snap shots per the base vehicle rules.
The rules use the word "all" to describe how many weapons a vehicle may fire. To define all, you have to assume it refers to the number and type of weapons listed in the vehicles entry. Thus a vehicle with only one weapon can only ever fire one weapon. If you assume that a zooming flyer can always shoot 4 weapons at full BS EVEN IF THOSE WEAPONS DONT ACTUALLY EXIST IN THE VEHICLES RULES, then you also have to assume that it can fire an indefinite number of weapons as snap shots per turn even though those weapons also don't exist. In effect, a vehicle has an undefined number of weapons unless you assume based on the word "all" that the limit of weapons a vehicle can fire is the number and type given in the profile.
If it had an infinite number of weapons, then yes it could snapshot said infinite number of weapons, while firing four at full ballistic skill, but VS reduces the allowance, rather than taking the place of one of the weapons. As everyone else has said, if you VS, it counts as firing one weapon, leaving you able to fire three weapons at full BS. The limiting factor then is the number of weapons you have, in this case one.
Maybe it would help if you didn't think of it as taking place as one of the weapons but rather taking place of the time it takes to fire a weapon at full BS.
Because of the advanced targeting systems a zooming flyer normally has time to fire 4 weapons at full BS, thats why the rest of the shots are 'snap' shots. If the hell drake does a VS then it will only have time to fire 3 weapons at full BS. Since it only has 1 weapon it has plenty of time to fire it even after a VS.
Perhaps the drake would have to re-orient it self or return to attack posture, who knows. Its a game with rules that provide an abstraction of what might actualy be going on in a more thematic battle.
I do love how Panzer has added FMC's to his argument without actually taking it to the logical extreme and answering my question (about a FMC with no gun doing a VS).
So here's another one:
Read the Bombing Run rules (page 81), they are worded the same way as Vector Strike ("...counts as having already fired one weapon in it's following Shooting phase..."). So if a flier has no other weapons (due to Weapon destroyed results or what-have-you) it cannot drop a Bomb? Clearly you should see why we all think the intent is that it counts against the 4 at full BS but doesn't prevent another weapon firing?
Really?...again?...another thread about Drake VSing and then scorching things?
How many is it now?, 50? 60 threads?
It should be pinned so that poeple stop making threads about this, specially if One personne says its wrong and 120 other personnes are saying that its right...
PanzerLeader wrote: Thus, the actual limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire should be determined based on the actual number of weapons they are equipped with.
You obviously wouldn't say this without rule support - mind citing some?
I cited all the vehicle shooting rules earlier, but to recap: a stationary vehicle can fire all it's weapons, a vehicle that moved at combat speed can fire one weapon at full ballistic skill and fire snap shots with the remainder and a vehicle that moved at cruising speed may only fire snap shots (page 279 in the eBook). The flyer rules state that a zooming flyer may shoot up to four weapons at full BS when moving at cruising or combat speed. The flyer is still allowed to shoot any additional weapons beyond four as snap shots per the base vehicle rules.
The rules use the word "all" to describe how many weapons a vehicle may fire. To define all, you have to assume it refers to the number and type of weapons listed in the vehicles entry. Thus a vehicle with only one weapon can only ever fire one weapon. If you assume that a zooming flyer can always shoot 4 weapons at full BS EVEN IF THOSE WEAPONS DONT ACTUALLY EXIST IN THE VEHICLES RULES, then you also have to assume that it can fire an indefinite number of weapons as snap shots per turn even though those weapons also don't exist. In effect, a vehicle has an undefined number of weapons unless you assume based on the word "all" that the limit of weapons a vehicle can fire is the number and type given in the profile.
Right, so your entire argument is based on making an assumption you're never told to make.
You do understand that's pretty much the opposite of RAW, right?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
The rules give permission to fire up to 4 weapons; just because the HellTurkey does not have 4 weapons does not reduce the number of weapons capable of being fired. Vector Strike counts as shooting a weapon. In the case of Vector Strike the Hell Turkey can fire more than 1 weapon.
Actually, by that logic the hell drake is capable of firing an infinite number of weapons: 4 at full BS and an infinite remainder as snap shots. Why? Because vehicles are capable of firing all their weapons every turn. Thus, the actual limit on how many weapons a vehicle can fire should be determined based on the actual number of weapons they are equipped with. A vehicle with 20 weapons could by RAW shoot all 20 every turn, even if it's a zooming flyer.
@ Jinx Dragon: I still owe you an answer.
Well, Yes.
It can shoot all 20(and now that we are talking about more than 4, the @Full BS part matters); 4 of them are at full BS and the remaining 16 are snapshots. The same would go with an infinite number of weapons; 4 are at full BS and the remainder are snap shots.
If A flyer Has 3 Weapons(say the Standard Vendetta) it can fire all 3 at full BS. If A flyer has 5 Weapons(Same Vendetta, now with the HB Sponsons) it can fire 4 at full BS and the remaining 1 as a Snapshot. These are the basic Vehicle rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/28 16:59:15
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
@ jinx dragon: you're right. By RAW, you cannot chose the weapon effected by the vector strike. However, it is also unnecessary because the controlling player may choose which weapon to fire and thus, effectively, choose which weapon was effected by the use of Vector Strike.
@ kommisar kel: so now we've used the basic vehicle rules to show that flyers may actually shoot more than 4 weapons. We've also shown that vehicles only have permission to shoot "all" their weapons. If a vehicle has only one weapon, then "all" = 1. So where does permission to shoot up to 4 at full BS override the base rule defining the number of weapons a vehicle can fire as "all"?
@ spellbound: you're only in Dallas. You bring your drakes, I'll bring my raven and you'll see how little they bother me in game. I'll even give you homefield advantage and travel up there. The wife likes DFW. Now, feel free to add a constructive answer on how the flyer rules trump the base rules on how many weapons a vehicle can shoot. I've already shown the vaunted "4 weapons @ full bs" is not an actual limit on how many weapons a flyer can shoot total and is not explicit permission to shoot more than the vehicle actually has.
The VS rule is: A model that made a Vector Strike
in its Movement phase counts as
having already fired one weapon in its
following Shooting phase. However, any
additional weapons it fires that turn can
choose a different target to that of the
Vector Strike.
I understand your point of view of: Counts as fired 1, but only has 1, so that's the one that counts as fired.
But as has been said before, if he had 0 weapons to fire, the Rule would be completely invalid: The "1 counted as shot" is a limitation to the next Shooting phase, not a status assigned to any of the weapons the Model has
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Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
So if it gets a weapon destroyed result, you're saying it can no longer VS?
We all hate that flying ball of doom, I hate them even more in pairs, but you're not gonna win everyone over by adding a line to the rule that doesn't exist
Panzer, you seem to be unwilling or unable to answer the following question. Please answer it, explain why you cannot (or won't) or concede.
Can a FMC that has no ranged weapons, or a Heldrake that has suffered a Weapon Destroyed result perform a Vector Strike? If so, what weapon does it replace?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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@ happy jew: yes, it can. Per the USR, to execute the VS you must only be in Swoop mode (or zoom if a vehicle) and have passed over the target unit. Once those two conditions are met, you are eligible for the d3+1 hits. The USR then imposes an additional restriction on models with shooting weapons (count as having fired one weapon) and gives them explicit permission to shoot a seperate target. The sequencing in the USR makes this clear by putting the shooting restriction after telling you how to achieve and resolve the VS. The crux of my argument comes down to "where does a model with only one shooting weapon receive permission to count a weapon it does not have by the rules as the one counted against the VS"?
Come on up, let's get a game. As if it proves anything.
Reading all the posts it seems both parties are valid depending on what interpretation you use of the EXACT SAME set of rules with the EXACT SAME words.
So which interpretation SHOULD it be? Obviously the one that lets it shoot, since it's been admitted due to weird wording that LOSING the weapon has no effect whatsoever on how the offending ability, vector strike, functions. It's obvious one was not intended to prevent the other from being used. It gets to use both.
@ nosferatu: exactly, it reduces the amount you can fire. A vehicle shoots all it's weapons. When "all" = 1, you have no more weapons to shoot after vector striking.
@ spellbound: all it proves is that I like to game. HIWPI, you let the drake VS and flame because it follows the rule of cool. Daemonic dragons should look and play awesome. However, I'm trying to find a more logical, RAW/RAI nuanced answer for some of my local gamers who aren't exactly happy with a TO answer of "because I ruled it that way"
PanzerLeader wrote: @ nosferatu: exactly, it reduces the amount you can fire. A vehicle shoots all it's weapons. When "all" = 1, you have no more weapons to shoot after vector striking.
@ spellbound: all it proves is that I like to game. HIWPI, you let the drake VS and flame because it follows the rule of cool. Daemonic dragons should look and play awesome. However, I'm trying to find a more logical, RAW/RAI nuanced answer for some of my local gamers who aren't exactly happy with a TO answer of "because I ruled it that way"
No, that's that's still incorrect. You're not replacing a weapon, nothing tells you to replace a weapon. It simply says it counts as firing a weapon. You're not taking a weapon away, you're simply firing a different one.
PanzerLeader wrote: @ happy jew: yes, it can. Per the USR, to execute the VS you must only be in Swoop mode (or zoom if a vehicle) and have passed over the target unit. Once those two conditions are met, you are eligible for the d3+1 hits. The USR then imposes an additional restriction on models with shooting weapons (count as having fired one weapon) and gives them explicit permission to shoot a seperate target. The sequencing in the USR makes this clear by putting the shooting restriction after telling you how to achieve and resolve the VS. The crux of my argument comes down to "where does a model with only one shooting weapon receive permission to count a weapon it does not have by the rules as the one counted against the VS"?
You said:
"The USR then imposes an additional restriction on models with shooting weapons..."
I see no separation in the SR between models with ranged weapons and models without them. The differentiation you are suggesting here is entirely fabricated.
"A model that made a Vector Strike in its Movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase"
A model, even if it has no ranged weapons, will count as having fired one in the shooting phase after a VS. That is clear. It does not matter in regard to this rule if the models has a 'shooting weapon' or not.
As the rule includes (by not precluding) flyers and FMS with no ranged weapons and causes them to count as having fired a weapon but no weapon in particular, why would you apply this rule differently to any other model?
A Hive Tyrant using a witchfire power will count as firing a assault weapon, does that mean he can't fire his devourer? No.
counts as firing a weapon ≠ counts as firing an equiped weapon
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change.
@ McNinja: so please demonstrate where a vehicle with a single weapon can "count as" firing a weapon it doesn't have. A vehicle can shoot "all" it's weapons. Where "all" is >1, there is no conflict with VS because the controlling player can elect which weapons to shoot with and simply forgo shooting one to comply with VS. When "all" = 1 and you "count as" firing one, you have no weapons left to shoot after vector striking.
PanzerLeader wrote: @ McNinja: so please demonstrate where a vehicle with a single weapon can "count as" firing a weapon it doesn't have. A vehicle can shoot "all" it's weapons. Where "all" is >1, there is no conflict with VS because the controlling player can elect which weapons to shoot with and simply forgo shooting one to comply with VS. When "all" = 1 and you "count as" firing one, you have no weapons left to shoot after vector striking.
You "count as" firing one. You aren't actually firing one that your model has on it. You have a total of four to fire at full BS. You count as firing one weapon. Nothing says you have to "use up" a shooting weapon you have.
@ Abandon: I can agree with you that counts as firing does not equal count as firing equipped weapon. A hive tyrant could have a witch fire power and two devourers. On any given turn, the tyrant could shoot two devourers, shoot the witch fire and a single devourers or do a VS and use any one of the three possible shooting attacks.
@ McNinja: Please define how many weapons a vehicle can shoot. My base assertion here is that a vehicle can only shoot a total number equal to the number and type it is equipped with, I.e. "all" it's weapons per the base vehicle rules. If you have only one weapon and count as firing one weapon, then you have reached the base line cap of "all".
@ Rigeld: so I've made nuanced RAW/RAI arguments and you have not addressed any specific points in your responses. Please be constructive in the discussion or stop posting.
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