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xruslanx wrote: So you think that humanity is no different than other animals? You don't think our capacity to learn and understand and debate places us above the rest of creation?
I think that a view of humanity as being different from and superior to animals is fairly widespread. Certainly many islamic schools in the uk teach creationism, far more than christian schools do, and a belief in evolution is very low in many religious countries. It is very obliously not a freak medieval christian accident.
Of course we are different from other animals, but not superior. The genetic difference between chimpanzees/bonobos and humans is about 1.2%. Aside from bipedal locomotion, the predominate thing that sets us apart from other primates is our highly developed neocortex, prefrontal cortex, and temporal lobes (the things that allow us abstract reasoning, language, and learning). Again, these things make us different from animals, not better.
I used Christian teachings as an example because is it not only the worlds largest religion, but it also has the most influence on Western thought.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 03:48:12
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
EDIT: Actually, one looks like a bull terrier and the newer pick is a boxer...
Actually the first one looks more like an American Staffordshire Terrier.A.K.A Pit bull.
A bull terrier is the Spuds Mcenzy dog
And what was pointed out...even if they were the same breed of dog, that would only be an indication of microevolution.
And also before the chorus of "All it takes is time" crowd starts up again..I know that this is partly the difference, but there is also the issue that microevolution is observable/indisputable, while macro is not observable. Also you have to accept old earth..I.E. millions of years to accept macro. not everyone does accept this.
GG
You are aware that dormant genes from previous evolutionary forms have been found in animal dna, right? Macro evolution is an undesputable fact now.
chickenosaurus. I want mine. Now: (Skip to 8:40, the preamble isn't entirely relevant to my chickenosaurus)
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
I'm still trying to understand how macro evolution is not able to be proven.
Simple fact: Finding fossil evidence on small islands of tiny cousins of large land animals that normally existed on the mainland. That is evolution to fit a niche, not evidence of God suddenly making large animals small overnight by scaling them in Photoshop. Any belief otherwise is evidence of the short-sightedness of mankind.
Once again, I urge someone to show me where the theory of evolution actually says a God working behind the scenes cannot exist. That is a pure fallacy cooked up by religious groups that want to come off as being victimized by some shadowy group of scientists .
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: Once again, I urge someone to show me where the theory of evolution actually says a God working behind the scenes cannot exist. That is a pure fallacy cooked up by religious groups that want to come off as being victimized by some shadowy group of scientists .
Well, then again, there's also certain very vocal 'leading' scientists who see no issue with using terms like 'sociopathic' to define religious behaviour.
Personnal bet : if your stance on complex social phenomena is that reductive, it's probably wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 05:49:35
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
EDIT: Actually, one looks like a bull terrier and the newer pick is a boxer...
Actually the first one looks more like an American Staffordshire Terrier.A.K.A Pit bull.
A bull terrier is the Spuds Mcenzy dog
And what was pointed out...even if they were the same breed of dog, that would only be an indication of microevolution.
And also before the chorus of "All it takes is time" crowd starts up again..I know that this is partly the difference, but there is also the issue that microevolution is observable/indisputable, while macro is not observable. Also you have to accept old earth..I.E. millions of years to accept macro. not everyone does accept this.
GG
Time number 4
THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS TIME!!!!!!!
Now if you refuse to accept that the earth is very old you could make the argument that there hasn't been enough time for macroevolutiion to occur.
Of course if you are putting together random ages of people in the bible to work out the age of the earth then its quite clear you dont value scientific evidence much at all.
Some people believe the earth is 6000 years old which is pretty ridiculous considering we have found human artificacts older than that.
AegisGrimm wrote: Once again, I urge someone to show me where the theory of evolution actually says a God working behind the scenes cannot exist. That is a pure fallacy cooked up by religious groups that want to come off as being victimized by some shadowy group of scientists .
Then again show me exactly where there is anything we have discovered which means there has to be a god(s) working away behind the scenes. I am also yet to hear where this immensely complex being came from (other than from the pages of a best selling novel of course).
AegisGrimm wrote: Once again, I urge someone to show me where the theory of evolution actually says a God working behind the scenes cannot exist.
Of course that's not true. But evolution, combined with basic rules of belief, tell us that belief in "god behind the scenes" is about as reasonable as belief in mind control messages in the chemtrails. It's a simple principle, that holds for everything but god, that you don't believe in something without a good reason to do so. And by explaining the existence of life sufficiently well that no "god behind the scenes" is necessary evolution completely eliminates that reason. The only reason to even consider the possibility of there being divine involvement is if you're stubbornly determined to believe in a god no matter how lacking the evidence is and just need a place to put one. It makes about as much sense as insisting that the theory of evolution doesn't prove that I, Peregrine, didn't work behind the scenes to create life as we know it and therefore you can't criticize my belief.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Kilkrazy wrote: Something that is not required to exist, is not required not to exist.
Then I've got a teapot in space I would like to talk to you about...
Besides which, I've heard the argument of "well the universe couldn't just come from nowhere!" Or "well, people were clearly made as macroevolution is heresy and clearly not a real thing.. oh hi microevolition - you are cool as we can see you in action and to deny you would make us lool like utter fools"... arguments which not only apply to god but which apply to an entity which apparently is more complex than the universe and everything in it...
Some people believe the earth is 6000 years old which is pretty ridiculous considering we have found human artificacts older than that.
They also believe that 4000 years ago there was a world-wide flood that covered all the mountains, and we know that various civilisations existed at that time and were not drowned.
They also believe that within 200 years of the worldwide flood (that only left the family of Noah alive), there were lots of people again, and a huge city of people called Babel raised the tallest tower ever. Putting aside all the other evidence of reality, the simple mechanics of human reproduction preclude that being possible.
Young Earth Creationists will deny all logic in order to cleave to their magic book, basically.
Some people believe the earth is 6000 years old which is pretty ridiculous considering we have found human artificacts older than that.
They also believe that 4000 years ago there was a world-wide flood that covered all the mountains, and we know that various civilisations existed at that time and were not drowned.
They also believe that within 200 years of the worldwide flood (that only left the family of Noah alive), there were lots of people again, and a huge city of people called Babel raised the tallest tower ever. Putting aside all the other evidence of reality, the simple mechanics of human reproduction preclude that being possible.
Young Earth Creationists will deny all logic in order to cleave to their magic book, basically.
If you ever want to be fully terrified by a complete lack of logic and reasoning, look no further than Answers In Genesis.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Some people believe the earth is 6000 years old which is pretty ridiculous considering we have found human artificacts older than that.
They also believe that 4000 years ago there was a world-wide flood that covered all the mountains, and we know that various civilisations existed at that time and were not drowned.
They also believe that within 200 years of the worldwide flood (that only left the family of Noah alive), there were lots of people again, and a huge city of people called Babel raised the tallest tower ever. Putting aside all the other evidence of reality, the simple mechanics of human reproduction preclude that being possible.
Young Earth Creationists will deny all logic in order to cleave to their magic book, basically.
My favourite bit about the flood is to ask where the water went. Is the a plug in the sea we haven't found yet?
AegisGrimm wrote: Once again, I urge someone to show me where the theory of evolution actually says a God working behind the scenes cannot exist.
Of course that's not true. But evolution, combined with basic rules of belief, tell us that belief in "god behind the scenes" is about as reasonable as belief in mind control messages in the chemtrails. It's a simple principle, that holds for everything but god, that you don't believe in something without a good reason to do so. And by explaining the existence of life sufficiently well that no "god behind the scenes" is necessary evolution completely eliminates that reason. The only reason to even consider the possibility of there being divine involvement is if you're stubbornly determined to believe in a god no matter how lacking the evidence is and just need a place to put one. It makes about as much sense as insisting that the theory of evolution doesn't prove that I, Peregrine, didn't work behind the scenes to create life as we know it and therefore you can't criticize my belief.
The theory of evolution isn't about the origin of life in the first place though, so it doesn't actually say anything about whether God creating life is reasonable or not.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The theory of evolution isn't about the origin of life in the first place though, so it doesn't actually say anything about whether God creating life is reasonable or not.
The conventional "god behind the scenes" argument almost always either claims that god created life mostly as it is now, or was involved throughout the entire process of evolution.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/03 10:44:57
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
AegisGrimm wrote: Once again, I urge someone to show me where the theory of evolution actually says a God working behind the scenes cannot exist.
Of course that's not true. But evolution, combined with basic rules of belief, tell us that belief in "god behind the scenes" is about as reasonable as belief in mind control messages in the chemtrails. It's a simple principle, that holds for everything but god, that you don't believe in something without a good reason to do so. And by explaining the existence of life sufficiently well that no "god behind the scenes" is necessary evolution completely eliminates that reason. The only reason to even consider the possibility of there being divine involvement is if you're stubbornly determined to believe in a god no matter how lacking the evidence is and just need a place to put one. It makes about as much sense as insisting that the theory of evolution doesn't prove that I, Peregrine, didn't work behind the scenes to create life as we know it and therefore you can't criticize my belief.
The theory of evolution isn't about the origin of life in the first place though, so it doesn't actually say anything about whether God creating life is reasonable or not.
Very true.
However the theory of abiogenesis does give us scenarios in which life could arise from inanimate matter without needing to presuppose the existence of a God or Gods.
This is conjecture, but... Doesn't it make sense that God would grant all of his creations the ability to improve themselves through evolution? It seems like it would take more effort to deny them that.
I don't think religion and Evolution conflict with each other at all, unless you are insistent that God is the proprietary engineer of existence, and that he would not set laws in place that let things play out in their own way. I'm not religious though, so perhaps my sketched ideas about God are incorrect.
While we're on the subject of "scary" science, how do most people feel about particle physics and other subatomic theory? I've always been fascinated by it, because my grandfather, who has his Doctorate in Physics, has always fostered my interest in it, but I could see how people would be quick to dismiss it as totally irrelevant.
Captain Fantastic wrote: This is conjecture, but... Doesn't it make sense that God would grant all of his creations the ability to improve themselves through evolution? It seems like it would take more effort to deny them that.
The problem comes with God being all knowing and all powerful. As such, all of God's creations would have to be perfect in their construction, and there'd be no reason for them to have to change to fit some purpose, since they'd be perfect in their creation as it is.
However the theory of abiogenesis does give us scenarios in which life could arise from inanimate matter without needing to presuppose the existence of a God or Gods.
Abiogenesis isn't a theory because it hasn't be proven yet, it is still an hypothesis.
Captain Fantastic wrote: This is conjecture, but... Doesn't it make sense that God would grant all of his creations the ability to improve themselves through evolution? It seems like it would take more effort to deny them that.
The problem comes with God being all knowing and all powerful. As such, all of God's creations would have to be perfect in their construction, and there'd be no reason for them to have to change to fit some purpose, since they'd be perfect in their creation as it is.
Hey God's a smart fellow (the Bible told me so!). COnsidering the whole fall of man* thing, he was probably just planning ahead
Perhaps the next time a family member of a "Young Earth" believer is raped or murdered the police only reply on "good old fashioned detector'ing methods" to solve the case. I mean it would be a bit two faced to rely on science in this situation, but dismiss it when it doesn't fit in with your religious beliefs on how the earth was created.
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.
Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor
I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design
Wolfstan wrote: Perhaps the next time a family member of a "Young Earth" believer is raped or murdered the police only reply on "good old fashioned detector'ing methods" to solve the case. I mean it would be a bit two faced to rely on science in this situation, but dismiss it when it doesn't fit in with your religious beliefs on how the earth was created.
Or they could just say that the lord works in mysterious ways.
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
Wolfstan wrote: Perhaps the next time a family member of a "Young Earth" believer is raped or murdered the police only reply on "good old fashioned detector'ing methods" to solve the case. I mean it would be a bit two faced to rely on science in this situation, but dismiss it when it doesn't fit in with your religious beliefs on how the earth was created.
Or they could just say that the lord works in mysterious ways.
Gotta love the "classics"
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.
Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor
I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design
nkelsch wrote: Um... how come it is not 100% of college graduates acknowledge humans have evolved over time.
Simple. Lots of universities in the states are backed by fundamentalist religion. Even in the very liberal northeast there's tons and tons of christian colleges that are private, do not allow the teaching of evolution, but mandate for graduation credit hours in theology regardless of major.
I'd assume in more religious areas of the country it's even worse.
Personally i don't understand how anyone, at all, in any shape form or fashion, can deny evolution, and maintain a shred of credibility.
Haight wrote: Personally i don't understand how anyone, at all, in any shape form or fashion, can deny evolution, and maintain a shred of credibility.
The same way they can believe in a sky unicorn and maintain credibility.
Edit: The answer is magnets.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/03 19:13:19
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
Captain Fantastic wrote: This is conjecture, but... Doesn't it make sense that God would grant all of his creations the ability to improve themselves through evolution? It seems like it would take more effort to deny them that.
The problem comes with God being all knowing and all powerful. As such, all of God's creations would have to be perfect in their construction, and there'd be no reason for them to have to change to fit some purpose, since they'd be perfect in their creation as it is.
This doesn't really make sense. A being without limits is limited to doing things one particular way?
Captain Fantastic wrote: This is conjecture, but... Doesn't it make sense that God would grant all of his creations the ability to improve themselves through evolution? It seems like it would take more effort to deny them that.
The problem comes with God being all knowing and all powerful. As such, all of God's creations would have to be perfect in their construction, and there'd be no reason for them to have to change to fit some purpose, since they'd be perfect in their creation as it is.
There is another option. Which is the most likely if God actually exists. Could just be that God is a bit of an donkey-cave.
I know what you mean in this context. Why bother making beings that adapt if you are all knowing and can do anything why not just fix that gak from the beginning. Instead of ending up with stuff like Giraffes with a Recurrent Laryngeal nerve which starts at the neck. Goes all the way down to the heart then comes back up taking a detor of around 15ft. It's in people too but how poor a design it would be for a perfect creator is most apparent in Giraffes. The theory is that this nerve and its length is a hold over in evolving from fish to mammals.
The extreme detour of this nerve (about 15 feet in the case of giraffes[15]) is cited as evidence of evolution. The nerve's route would have been direct in the fish-like ancestors of modern tetrapods, traveling from the brain, past the heart, to the gills (as it does in modern fish). Over the course of evolution, as the neck extended and the heart became lower in the body, the laryngeal nerve was caught on the wrong side of the heart. Natural selection gradually lengthened the nerve by tiny increments to accommodate, resulting in the circuitous route now observed.[16]
Captain Fantastic wrote: This is conjecture, but... Doesn't it make sense that God would grant all of his creations the ability to improve themselves through evolution? It seems like it would take more effort to deny them that.
The problem comes with God being all knowing and all powerful. As such, all of God's creations would have to be perfect in their construction, and there'd be no reason for them to have to change to fit some purpose, since they'd be perfect in their creation as it is.
This doesn't really make sense. A being without limits is limited to doing things one particular way?
Well, no. But then he's kind of a [deleted by Moderator].
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/05 16:05:48
