Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was playing a game the other night against another regular at my LGS and this is a guy who I know very well, but every single game I've played with him, he always tries to cheat by trying to give wargear that units can't take such as heavy rail rifles on a pathfinder or giving a tau suit more weapons than it can take, or giving a dwarf army too many runes. However, he's an idiot who despite cheating, still loses to me and the other regulars every time, but this victory comes very painfully as we call him out on every rule mistake and he tries to deny it. I remember from my last game with him that he played orks and forgot his codex and stated "I know my ork codex, don't worry." Also, when works flyers, he would go past 90 degrees and after the move turn them even further to get a better angle, i've told him he couldn't do that, but gets defensive about it saying "I know how to work a flyer." Me and many other regulars are pretty much fed up with this guy, yet he pretty much keeps our GS afloat single-handedly as he constantly has his mom shell out money to buy new models every day as he owns every single army in WH40k and WHFB. And me and the other regulars worry about new people who join our community because our cheater would pretty much latch onto them and teach them how to play and the last thing we need is to have a player get called out for cheating yet didn't realize he was due to poor learning from someone else. What you do about players such as these.

Pull him aside and tell him how it is, failing that don't play him until he gets the message.

Yeah, the easy solution to players like that is to just not play them.

"You cheat in every game, I don't want to play with you"
If everyone repeats this simple phrase he'll soon get the message.

Seems a little obvious to me but wouldn't you just tell him you won't play him until he's willing to play the same game as you are.

Next time he says "I know what I am doing".

Ask him "ok, so are you saying what you just did is correct?"

For example, as him "do you mean to turn more than 90 degress?"

If he says yes, then say "thats funny, I don't remember that rule like that, you mind showing me exactly where you read that".

If he gets mad say "I 'm sorry, but you are the only person I have ever seen play like that, so if you want to play me, I would appreciate it if you will show me how you are doing these things"

then turn him into a newt.

davethepak wrote:

then turn him into a newt.

...What if he gets better?

Well, he's an Ork player, those guys are sneaky gits.

Seriously, is the problem that he cheats, or is the problem that he doesn't understand the rules?

I don't get these sorts of threads where grown men don't have the ability to call out other men over a game of plastic soldiers with RIGID rule sets. You even mention this person has his mom buying his models, which means he's probably a kid, so this should be even easier. Where's your spine?

Say: "I'm not playing you because you're a cheater, kid. You make up your own rules and break existing ones. Play fair, and then we'll throw it down on the tabletop." Do it with a straight face, stare him in the eyes and pierce his constitution, and don't break eye contact when you're done speaking. Wait for his reaction, which will likely be some sort of pissant response, in which case you keep a straight face and SOLID eye contact, and when he's done with his tirade, turn your back and continue whatever you were doing. Ignoring a big baby is extremely effective at irritating them, since they get no reaction from you.

edit - By the way, don't worry about him suddenly not buying stuff anymore. He's clearly VERY addicted to the hobby since he owns every army and buys stuff weekly.

I don't get these sorts of threads where grown men don't have the ability to call out other men over a game of plastic soldiers with RIGID rule set

His mother buys his models , he maybe many things but a man is not one of them . children cheat at games , because that is what they do . I have never seen a basket ball game or a football game and in all of them people cheated , if there were no judge.

If he is a kid who cheats AND loses, then why worry? Just play him, and win!

Or cheat yourself. Have some really fun with units and combos that you normally arent allowed. Its would be a fun a game if both parties can bend the rules.

Well ordinarily I would say kick him out. As you have the complication that he is a significant part of keeping your LGS going and your main concern is about him giving new players wrong instructions, that latter part is easy to deal with. Just deal with misinformed other players in a friendly fashion as and when they play the rest of you. If they turn a flyer too far thinking that's allowed, do NOT accuse them of cheating. Instead say in a friendly manner - "you know you're not supposed to turn them that far, right?" and back it up with a rulebook again, in the friendliest, non-accusatory rule. 9/10 they'll be fine with the correction because they wont be deliberately cheating. And after the first couple of times they've found someone correcting them, they'll draw their own conclusions about the player that taught them.

Don't worry about this part at least. Reasonable people will remain reasonable people even if first exposed to this player.

It depends on his age.
If he is an adult, you should call him out on it and refuse to play him as long as he cheats. That will teach him.
It it is a little kid, there is little that can be done about it, it is in their nature to cheat . You could try explaining to him that cheating is wrong and that it makes the game less fun for others.
It it is an adult who behaves like a little kid, you should laugh at him

Give him a HUUUGE advantage in the next game. (ok, I actually agree with the others, so I wanted to come up with a different angle on the problem).
He might feel the need to cheat because he sucks badly at the game. Give him a game he cant possible lose. like this:

Mission last stand of (insert name of army the non-cheating player is playing)
Setup: whatever rocks your boat
Armies: non-cheater gets a 1000 pts to pick his forces with.
cheater/rules-impaired gets 2000 double FOC with the "without numbers" special rule from BRB

game length: game stops when 1 force has been completely eradicated (non-cheater)

Objective: cheater: destroy everything. non-cheater survive for more turns than the other opponents the cheater/rules-impaired kid had this month.
(the non-cheaters could then ridicule those mates that "only" managed to kill of 3567 points etc)


Another way could be to make some 2v2 matches (and give his poor team mate a coke after the game as payment) He might take his team mates "suggestions" to heart a lot easier than opponents "annoying" rules complaints.



While this kid does sound rather obnoxious, his money (ok, his mothers money) sounds like a huge asset to the community. Either reduce his obnoxiousness or increase his mother cash flow to the community, until you end up with a positve number ( cash flow - obnoxiousness= degree of happiness)

Cheaters get my blood pumping. I actually beat a guy's face into the dirt for cheating me in MTG. That was during my 'japanese delinquent' stage though, and he said some pretty provoking things.

In a casual situation like a FLGS, I would call him out on it. Don't mix words. Tell it to him, stoned-faced. If you beat around the bush and try to imply it, they'll think they can still get away from it, and he won't feel like there are any real repercussions to deal with. Not to imply that most gamers are cowards, but faced with someone with a hard face and harder words, they will back down.

Well in terms of age, he's about 16, so not entirely a kid, and he knows his rules as he's been playing for a year now. And our GW manager has had to pull him aside every time for playing illegal lists.

 marv335 wrote:
"You cheat in every game, I don't want to play with you"
If everyone repeats this simple phrase he'll soon get the message.

This. A few months of not playing with anyone, he'll either conform to the norm, or go away. Either solution is a win.

 Tigramans wrote:

davethepak wrote:

then turn him into a newt.

...What if he gets better?

Don't worry, the writers will get lazy and decide suddenly kill him off.
Deal with it.

It might indeed be that he does not fully understand the rules.

Of course, I cant help but notice that you said he was an idiot who lost even though he is cheating. This could have ramifications that tell more than you think.
1. He doesnt understand the rules and having someone nag him throughout the game calling him on stuff (his possible point of view not mine) could be throwing him off to where he is not able to fully focus on the game whch in turn could cause him more decision making issues.

Possible ways to help.
A. Talk to him in private where he is not publicly embarrased by the conversation. ask him whats up and find out if he needs help. explai to him that the rest of you are willing to help him out in learning.
B. Help hi make himself a "cheat sheet". Find the rules he forgets the most and make a sheet with them organized in such a way that it is an easy reference. This may end up being more of a phamplet than a sheet but still easier than flipping through the book and you can print it in a larger font. Laminate or put in page protecters in a foer and he can keep it with his spare army sts, which brings us to C.
C. Help him to make a series of army lists based on what he has. This way, he can always be ready with a list that you guys will know is legal. At game time he can just pull out which one he wants to use.
D. Might be an idea to help him design or find for him an army list sheet where the stats and all are set up in an easy to read format. maybe even a section for each entry to list special rules.
E. get some of the rest of the group to help in the coaching.


2. He is just a poor player (in skill level) who is trying to run with the big dogs and is frustrated to the point where he is trying to do anything he can to win. I'm not saying that this would be an "ok' behavior. I'm just saying that it is a possible one which the reasoning for could be understood if not approved..As in the first possibility, this could lead to further frustration as a game goes on and he is called on it.

Possible ways to help.
A. Same as in first example.
B. My old gaming grup had a guy who was bad at playing but he would design his own personal objectives. Killing a particulerly awesome character Ihad who always did well or "BY gd he aint taking THIS building" or something small that might not have anything to do with the game but made him fell better. As the rest of us didnt know these objective, we couldnt plan or play for them and he usually did it and got a private victory. It made our games more fun and we both got to wn. Something like ts may help him feel better and be less likely to cheat.
C. Same as C above
D. Same as D above
E. Same as E above
F. Run small point games to coach him on tactics and strategy where you can focus on particular weak spots.

It may be that he is just a jerk who cheats. If that is the case, you know what to do.
If it isnt though, it could be that you might lose a possible gamer and member of the "community" who could turn to much more nefarious hobbies if he no longer has gaming. I've seen gaming and the close knit gaming community keep people out of trouble where otherwise, they could have gone into rugs or crime or whatnot. Often I have little patience but if I am unsure, I ry to coach and help where I can just in case. I dont know why, but something in the back of my mind just made me pay more attention to this than other similer posts like it. Overlook my rambling sorry.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I don't get these sorts of threads where grown men don't have the ability to call out other men over a game of plastic soldiers with RIGID rule sets. You even mention this person has his mom buying his models, which means he's probably a kid, so this should be even easier. Where's your spine?

Say: "I'm not playing you because you're a cheater, kid. You make up your own rules and break existing ones. Play fair, and then we'll throw it down on the tabletop." Do it with a straight face, stare him in the eyes and pierce his constitution, and don't break eye contact when you're done speaking. Wait for his reaction, which will likely be some sort of pissant response, in which case you keep a straight face and SOLID eye contact, and when he's done with his tirade, turn your back and continue whatever you were doing. Ignoring a big baby is extremely effective at irritating them, since they get no reaction from you.

edit - By the way, don't worry about him suddenly not buying stuff anymore. He's clearly VERY addicted to the hobby since he owns every army and buys stuff weekly.

QFT. OP, I highly suggest you learn some simple strategies for confrontation. This is something that will pop up throughout your entire life, and you need to find a way to effectively deal with people like this. Avoiding the problem, or beating around the bush, is not a good way to live.

You're adults. Talk about it. Tell him to stop and if he keeps it up nobody will want to play with him.

I ran into a guy I suspected to be cheating in movement at a tourney a while ago.

He was holding his measure above the table, and looking down and moving models - but it looked like they were a bit....long in the move.

Now, I know that ocassionally, I move like this, just for speed, and I did not want to start a confrontation, but I wanted to address it.

I asked him "hey, I know that maybe from your angle that movement looks fine, but from here it looks a bit sloppy, so could I ask you to take a bit more care in moving, and maybe place the movement template on the table?".

He looked a bit startled, but did it.

Later, I asked a few other guys if he had "sloppy" movement in their games - I got a response back "you mean that cheater...".

Do I know that he was intentionally cheating?
No.
Do I know I would not put up with that kind of movement?
Yes.
Did I say something about it, but try to be polite?
Yes.

With this person not following the rules, its best to bring it up - yeah, its not easy, but we don't have to be jerks about it.
But in life we can't let other walk over us either.

Regardless, even after dealing with him, I would avoid playing that guy in the first post....if those are the things you caught him at....what else is he doing wrong...

 EVIL INC wrote:
It might indeed be that he does not fully understand the rules.

**snip**

Possible ways to help.

**snip**

Possible ways to help.

**snip**]Overlook my rambling sorry.[/u]

I can absolutely overlook the length of an extremely helpful post which does an excellent job of teaching the OP how to better handle a troubled kid. Especially one that goes out of it's way to point out how to encourage the kid to become a better member of the group.

However, what I can't overlook is that your post goes against every meaning of your handle: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
Cheaters get my blood pumping. I actually beat a guy's face into the dirt for cheating me in MTG. That was during my 'japanese delinquent' stage.

I'd like to hear more about this phenomenon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was over-moving some guys due to awkward table-positioning this weekend. My opponent commented, I remeasured and I think I was wrong (I can't remember).

He ended up pwning my face so hard I'm still numb, so it worked out, but you have to consider people are just making mistakes sometimes.

Sounds like he's a douche though. Counter-cheat.

Mageofsymphonia wrote:
Well in terms of age, he's about 16, so not entirely a kid, and he knows his rules as he's been playing for a year now. And our GW manager has had to pull him aside every time for playing illegal lists.

16 is too old to be cheating. Beat him up
Simply refusing to play him might also get the point across, but it is less fun, and less blood for the Blood God.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, he's an Ork player, those guys are sneaky gits.

And he plays ALL the army's.

Spraying the cheater with pepper spray is the correct way to stop cheating.

16? He's a kid.

He probably has a lot of bad habits from being coddled by his parents and having everything placed in front of him on a platter. It's his way or the highway. So, he probably does not have the social skills as a person to interact.

Pull him aside and talk to him. Explain to be a successful member of society is to be able to interact with other people and not burning bridges (the game store is like a small microcosm). Networking builds opportunities, etc etc. I'm not going to jump on a soap box.

If he's too closed minded to take some one on one man advice, F him. I'm willing to try once, or twice...but some people need to learn by falling on their own sword.

Mageofsymphonia wrote:
I was playing a game the other night against another regular at my LGS and this is a guy who I know very well, but every single game I've played with him, he always tries to cheat by trying to give wargear that units can't take such as heavy rail rifles on a pathfinder or giving a tau suit more weapons than it can take, or giving a dwarf army too many runes. However, he's an idiot who despite cheating, still loses to me and the other regulars every time, but this victory comes very painfully as we call him out on every rule mistake and he tries to deny it. I remember from my last game with him that he played orks and forgot his codex and stated "I know my ork codex, don't worry." Also, when works flyers, he would go past 90 degrees and after the move turn them even further to get a better angle, i've told him he couldn't do that, but gets defensive about it saying "I know how to work a flyer." Me and many other regulars are pretty much fed up with this guy, yet he pretty much keeps our GS afloat single-handedly as he constantly has his mom shell out money to buy new models every day as he owns every single army in WH40k and WHFB. And me and the other regulars worry about new people who join our community because our cheater would pretty much latch onto them and teach them how to play and the last thing we need is to have a player get called out for cheating yet didn't realize he was due to poor learning from someone else. What you do about players such as these.

Everyone has already given some pretty good advice on how to deal with a cheater (direct communication), but I would say that if you FLGS is dependent upon this ONE player to keep themselves afloat - you have a bigger problem than one cheater.

Makumba wrote:

I don't get these sorts of threads where grown men don't have the ability to call out other men over a game of plastic soldiers with RIGID rule set

His mother buys his models , he maybe many things but a man is not one of them

Read my entire post, I addressed that.