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Just saw over on Natfka that the Britonians might be getting squated into a "Kingdoms of men" book. /sigh
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/bretonnians-getting-rolled-into-empire.html?m=1

Hmm... always liked Bretonnia and thought they were way more different than another type of Marine, but if the product is dipping, I could see why they'd consolidate the rules... More surprised from a fluff perspective (how much would be lost by consolidating the books?) than from a rules perspective (seems like a few special rules and unit types could make the two distinct)

If Natfka says it, odds are it isn't true.

I call BS. Most of the stuff pulled is finecast, and bad finecast at that. Anyone that has followed the range has seen some options in the hero/lord section dwindle for some time now. It wasn't until the last month that some units like the trebuchet got pulled, and even before that, the online store said "usually ships within 4 weeks" for many of their units.

My guess is they didn't make that many of the Bretonnian range in the switch to finecast, so were low stock on models that don't particularly sell well, and they decided not to make another batch of the model. Likely they will just ride it out until a release later in the year where much of the range will be expanded and replaced with plastic.

If anything about this rumor is true, it's that they expand Bretonnian lore to include Tilea and Estalia as kingdoms that pay tribute to Bretonnia in an effort to help expand the flavor of the army. Even then though, I doubt it.

This rumor doesn't mesh with any of the previous Bret rumors so I would be surprised to see anything come of it. This rumor seems to be just an extension of the whole "GW abandoning WHFB" rumor mongering.

The Empire book is too new to be rereleased anytime soon.

No one can be sure what will happen to the Brettonians though. Fantasy sales are low that is not really in dispute, but what GW plans to do about it is impossible to guess.

It will be very interesting to see if they finally make the dwarf army interesting to play or if it will be in the same rut that it has been stuck in since 3rd edition.

Bretonnians might get better sales if they had an army book that was newer than 10 years old.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bretonnians might get better sales if they had an army book that was newer than 10 years old.

Maybe. But Empire did get a new Army Book, all kinds of fancy new kits, including the humongous Karl Franz guy (probably GW's biggest big-kit-flop yet), fancy cavalry, wizards, etc. and isn't selling either.

There's a reason Mantic Games (with Ronnie Renton having been at GW for over a decade) decided to not make "normal" human miniatures for Kings of War, and stick with Ogres and Elves instead.

Humans don't sell (unless they're Space Marines).

 Zweischneid wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bretonnians might get better sales if they had an army book that was newer than 10 years old.

Maybe. But Empire did get a new Army Book, all kinds of fancy new kits, including the humongous Karl Franz guy (probably GW's biggest big-kit-flop yet), fancy cavalry, wizards, etc. and isn't selling either.

There's a reason Mantic Games (with Ronnie Renton having been at GW for over a decade) decided to not make "normal" human miniatures for Kings of War, and stick with Ogres and Elves instead.

Humans don't sell (unless they're Space Marines).

Or Imperial Guard.

 Zweischneid wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bretonnians might get better sales if they had an army book that was newer than 10 years old.

Maybe. But Empire did get a new Army Book, all kinds of fancy new kits, including the humongous Karl Franz guy (probably GW's biggest big-kit-flop yet), fancy cavalry, wizards, etc. and isn't selling either.

Could it be:
1) The Core models are either old or ugly, or both
2) The Core models keep getting more expensive, both in terms of money AND points
3) Optimum unit sizes for Core has now gone up.
4) All of the above

Avian wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bretonnians might get better sales if they had an army book that was newer than 10 years old.

Maybe. But Empire did get a new Army Book, all kinds of fancy new kits, including the humongous Karl Franz guy (probably GW's biggest big-kit-flop yet), fancy cavalry, wizards, etc. and isn't selling either.

Could it be:
1) The Core models are either old or ugly, or both
2) The Core models keep getting more expensive, both in terms of money AND points
3) Optimum unit sizes for Core has now gone up.
4) All of the above

Or could be... fantasy humans don't sell. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Or Imperial Guard.

Not really. Tanks sell (obviously). Not the dudes in fatigues.

Empire was actually one of the better FB sellers until the current book hit.

So that's not it.

Avian wrote:
Empire was actually one of the better FB sellers until the current book hit.

So that's not it.

No it wasn't. Ronnie Renton left 2008..ish. Shortly after the 7th Edition Empire book. Knowing that Empire was the bottom of the pile, he decided to not make a version for Kings of War (in Miniatures).

Early Kings of War is a good indicator for what sells and what doesn't. It gave rule, but no miniatures, for Empire-style armies ("inviting" people to use miniatures from other manufacturers), but made miniatures for profitable lines (Elves, Orcs, etc..) that could be used with other manufacturers' rules (e.g. GW),

Empire were a loss-maker with their 6th Edition book. They were a loss maker with their 7th Edition book. They are a loss maker with their 8th Edition, despite having more new kits and development resource thrown at them than Tau and Eldar together.

Why should Brets be different?

Well, user Archibald_TK over at Warseer, who runs an independent store in Europe and has been handy with info on sales figures and whatnot, says that up until the most recent book, they were one of the best sellers.

You don't really think that GW would have put out "all kinds of fancy new kits" for them if Empire was at the bottom of the pile, do you?

WoC are humans, and they sell, so human WHFB armies do sell

The other (And probably primairy) reason Mantic havent made a human line is that there are so many historical miniatures that are a great price and quality you can base Kingsdoms of Men armies off that in making a fantasy human line you are competing with every other manufacturer out there.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Or could be... fantasy humans don't sell. Period.

Citation needed

Empire and Orcs were treated as the 'core' fantasy races by GW for years, I can only assume that this was backed up by their sales.

Avian wrote:
Well, user Archibald_TK over at Warseer, who runs an independent store in Europe and has been handy with info on sales figures and whatnot, says that up until the most recent book, they were one of the best sellers.

You don't really think that GW would have put out "all kinds of fancy new kits" for them if Empire was at the bottom of the pile, do you?

Sure they would.

A, because they can't really kill off the Empire. It's sort of core to the setting.

B, because occasionally they do give it "a go" (e.g. Dark Eldar) to see if the "if-only-we've-had-new-models-and up-to-date-rules-it-would-sell" idea works.

I doubt GW is "blind" to the vicious circle of unsupported armies being unsuccessful because they are unsupported. It is a real possibility. But that doesn't mean its true for every bad-selling army. Sometimes, it's simply a line of miniatures that isn't worth it. Period.

And one shop doesn't change that. The best-selling miniature wargame at my local shop is SAGA (fantasy humans, funny enough), but that hardly makes it the best-selling miniature wargame in the industry. It's just a local fluke driven by a handful of enthusiasts.

 carlos13th wrote:
The other (And probably primairy) reason Mantic havent made a human line is that there are so many historical miniatures that are a great price and quality you can base Kingsdoms of Men armies off that in making a fantasy human line you are competing with every other manufacturer out there.

Exactly, unless someone is dead set on their models lacking shoes or being blind, there really isn't a reason to buy GW's fantasy humans.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Or could be... fantasy humans don't sell. Period.

Citation needed

I said "could be"?

Why does my hypothesis need a citation, but the alternative hypotheses of other people here don't?

 Zweischneid wrote:

And one shop doesn't change that. The best-selling miniature wargame at my local shop is SAGA (fantasy humans, funny enough), but that hardly makes it the best-selling miniature wargame in the industry. It's just a local fluke driven by a handful of enthusiasts.

SAGA is a historical game (in so far as any game can be historical), not fantasy.

Great figures for skirmish bands.

A couple of knights on horse, a few archers, some peasents... come see the violence inherent in the system!

Myself? I'd like to see some added..variety to the range. The do not need a "New Army" book, just some added content, and consistancy.

I had an issue, back in the day of just buying more then 1 box of knights, and the basic red boxed set contents. I didn't see value in the purchase to take them seriously. Even with the formation charge, the army sucked into an enemy and died in the follow through of the charge.

I started playing them in some HQ, back way back when, and they had an interesting side effect of bringing in some added ranged attacks, and some filler attacks, then I'd use the earnings for a few more members in my band for the old Hogs Head RPG party followers, when the game was fun.

That hero had the lickies and chewies, and his "Team" was a support element. Skermishly, they play great. anything lerger... meh.

 Palindrome wrote:
, I can only assume that this was backed up by their sales.

Citation needed! Lol.

Not really, of course. However, just because you "assume", doesn't make it so. At least "assume" that the alternative hypothesis could also be correct and Empire was in the "core" because of the way the setting was conceived before they started worrying about the business-side of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
WoC are humans, and they sell, so human WHFB armies do sell

True.

Another reason GW might think about not supporting the less-successful human WHFB armies and just keep the one or two that do better.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Or could be... fantasy humans don't sell. Period.

Citation needed

I said "could be"?

Why does my hypothesis need a citation, but the alternative hypotheses of other people here don't?

Because of the sweepiness of the statement.

GW has a habit of occasionally rebooting a miniature line after a decade or so of no attention, but they don't continuously support non-sellers (look at their LotR / Hobbit line). Since Empire was the first (essentially) all plastic Fantasy line, we must assume that tales of them being a big seller (relative to other Fantasy armies, anyway) are true.

Fantasy humans do sell, but I'd be hard-pressed to say what was fantasy about the Empire and Brettonia.

They're more Renaissance/Middle Ages human, and there's tons of competition in that space (as you pointed out with the KoW example). The fantasy elements in the Empire are few and far between, and Brettonia doesn't have a ton more either. The demi-gryph/pegasus knights are the only ones that really spring to mind.

On the other end of the coin you have WoC, who have a distinct iconography with numerous fantastical units (mutations, etc.) tied into said design and in the case of the warriors appeal to the "heavily armored supermen" motif that drives Space Marine sales.

So I would say the more correct hypothesis is "generic historical-looking humans are a saturated market." It's not that they don't sell, or else the market wouldn't have become saturated. It's that there are so many offerings that one manufacturer will not enjoy the dominance/sales they can with a more distinct style of model. That non-humans are much easier to make have that distinct style since they're wholly fictional likely contributes as well.

On-topic, I wouldn't mind a Kingdoms of Men book so much if that book was expanded to include good chunks Estalia and Tilea and not "Brettonians plus two more kits" kind of nonsense. Then we could have pseudo-French, Spanish AND Italians...

Humans don't sell (unless they're Space Marines).

Eh, I dunno about that. I think there's a big market for well constructed human armies just as much as any other army. I, for one, am definitely interested in a quality human Fantasy army Given I have a Bret army in Fantasy and a Rohan force and a Harad force in LOTR... the people are out there, you just have to appeal to them. Just because GW have failed to appeal to peoples' tastes with their Fantasy human offerings doesn't mean there isn't a market for them. I personally think there'd be a bigger market for a good human army than something like an Ogre army (if it weren't for the appeal of Ogre's having very few models).

 Zweischneid wrote:
Maybe. But Empire did get a new Army Book, all kinds of fancy new kits, including the humongous Karl Franz guy (probably GW's biggest big-kit-flop yet), fancy cavalry, wizards, etc. and isn't selling either.

I don't know how well the Empire sold (do we have any sales figures?), but I found the Empire release pretty "meh". You have to appeal to the audience who is buying the army, and I think the typical human-fantasy player doesn't necessarily want a giant Karl Franz, silly looking chicken cavalry and giant contraptions of goodness knows what called "Celestial Hurricanum" or "Luminark of Hysh".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Maybe. But Empire did get a new Army Book, all kinds of fancy new kits, including the humongous Karl Franz guy (probably GW's biggest big-kit-flop yet), fancy cavalry, wizards, etc. and isn't selling either.

I don't know how well the Empire sold (do we have any sales figures?), but I found the Empire release pretty "meh". You have to appeal to the audience who is buying the army, and I think the typical human-fantasy player doesn't necessarily want a giant Karl Franz, silly looking chicken cavalry and giant contraptions of goodness knows what called "Celestial Hurricanum" or "Luminark of Hysh".

Which brings us back to the problem.

What exactly could they release for their human fantasy armies that a) isn't "meh" as you say it, b) isn't covered by Perry Miniatures and c) adds something relevant to the game. Not to mention doing it twice for two near-identical armies in the case of Brets and Empire?

What exactly do you propose to add to Bretonnians to make them Heldrake/Riptide/Wraithknight-style-mega-sellers in the GW catalog?

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Just saw over on Natfka that the Britonians might be getting squated into a "Kingdoms of men" book. /sigh
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/bretonnians-getting-rolled-into-empire.html?m=1

Well the name is definatley wrong.They already have a book called kingdoms of men for gondor/Rohan.It would be confusing to have another.

 Zweischneid wrote:
What exactly do you propose to add to Bretonnians to make them Heldrake/Riptide/Wraithknight-style-mega-sellers in the GW catalog?

Big ol' fething dragon, probably.

 Bull0 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
What exactly do you propose to add to Bretonnians to make them Heldrake/Riptide/Wraithknight-style-mega-sellers in the GW catalog?

Big ol' fething dragon, probably.

Not a bad idea.

But do you need Bretonnians to release a big ol' fething dragon though?

Could just squat Bretonnians and release the Dragon anyways for Chaos or High Elves are whatever, no?