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I know I like the Bretonnian line quite a bit, and would be sad to see them disappear.

IF that happens, I'd be happy to pick up miniatures that echo them for use in some system somewhere!

A kingdoms of men book would be interesting as it could include:

Brets
Kislev
Araby
Ind
Cathay
Tilea
Estalia

I'd go for it if the book was any good.

Puscifer wrote:
A kingdoms of men book would be interesting as it could include:

Brets
Kislev
Araby
Ind
Cathay
Tilea
Estalia

I'd go for it if the book was any good.

Could but wont, GW can't trademark something they don't have a model for so they simply wont put anything in their books that don't have models these days.

 Live2sculpt wrote:
This is a GREAT topic, but I don't have time to backread it today. Forgive me, I'm just subscribing in at this point to be plugged into the convo and I'll come back to it later.

I have lots of figure sculpting to do this weekend, but I HAVE a concern about Bretonnians and their future.

And I HAVE a question for those who collect Brets.

Are Brets likely to be discontinued outright? I LIKE the idea of the rumored "Kingdoms of Man" army book instead. If it contains Brets as a force selection side by side with Empire etc, that makes perfect sense to me.

But is the Bretonnian line getting squeezed out of production?

I'M CONSIDERING MAKING A SUPPLEMENTAL LINE OF QUALITY BRETONNIAN STYLED FIGURES TO BE RELEASED IN 2015.

What is currently on the market is mostly of the wrong scale or otherwise not a good match. Which is odd considering that Medieval Knights and Peasants are fairly public domain material.

How many would see that as a product people would collect?

If GW leaves the Bret line unsupported because it doesn't make enough scratch for THEM, then it is a market Niche I'd happily fill if the buyership is there.

The "ARTHURIANA Miniature Line" could start right here and now in this thread....

Opinions?

I would be interested in a 3rd party not-Bretonnian line, but there are actually some alternatives. There's Fire Forge Games Teutonic Knights as a replacement for Bret Knights and Perry make good alternatives to Men at Arms and Peasant Archers.

The Teutonic Knights might be slightly smaller scale than Bret Knights, but frankly, they're a better scale. They're the same scale that Bret Knights USED to be back in, ummm, was it 5th edition? The current Bret knights horses are bigger than a standard cavalry base, so they won't even rank up unless you use the correct head behind the correct horse, which isn't always an option as they give you random heads in the box. Bret Knights are the perfect example of why embiggening things isn't always the best option.

If I were restarting a bret army, I'd probably go for the Teutonic Knights rather than GW's models.

I think any Bretonnian players need to have a long hard think about their wargaming, come out of the closet, and start collecting that historicals force that they obviously desire

As AllSeeingSkink has said, there are some wonderful miniatures from Perry and Fireforge (amongst half a dozen others) that would suit perfectly, and are literally an arm or a leg cheaper than their GW equivalents.

Puscifer wrote:
A kingdoms of men book would be interesting as it could include:

Brets
Kislev
Araby
Ind
Cathay
Tilea
Estalia

I'd go for it if the book was any good.

I would love that, as I could get all sorts of interesting armies. But GW will never do it because: 1. They don't have any figures for most of those ranges and 2. Those ranges are all taken straight out of history, so there's nothing they can copyright or protect.

A question for the people that play WHFB - is it at all possible to create an army with just what the company is offering in the Brettonia section? The choice seems rather limited.

As far as I remember with the BSB gone, no, Been a while since i've played fantasy, but I believe Bretonians must include the BSB in their army.

As for limited choises... always been like that ... though there usued to be a lil more flavor in the archers

m@a, archers, 5 types of knights, mounted scouts; relique and trebuchet ( and then people wonder why bret players have so many knights...)

 Alkasyn wrote:
A question for the people that play WHFB - is it at all possible to create an army with just what the company is offering in the Brettonia section? The choice seems rather limited.

Technically you could kitbash the Knights plastics into a BSB and general, you can still buy damsels, and some of the Special slots. However you can't get trebuchets or grail knights, which is a big hit. You COULD make an army, but it would be far from competitive.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
A question for the people that play WHFB - is it at all possible to create an army with just what the company is offering in the Brettonia section? The choice seems rather limited.

Technically you could kitbash the Knights plastics into a BSB and general, you can still buy damsels, and some of the Special slots. However you can't get trebuchets or grail knights, which is a big hit. You COULD make an army, but it would be far from competitive.

You can still buy the Grail Knights in Australia. Though it's now made me realise the Bret range is disappearing from the GW website If the Bretonnians go down the drain permanently, I'm going to tie up my last couple of armies and be done with GW for good. Rising prices, degrading rules and dropping armies I collect is the straw that will break this camel's back.

 Aerethan wrote:
However you can't get trebuchets or grail knights, which is a big hit.

And no reliquary ! Me sad panda !

I always liked how Bretonnia was basically medieval France + King Arthur; it was a great way to get people who did't know about Warhammer to hear about it, because they saw bowmen and men-at-arms and knights which were easily recognizable; I also thought it was funny that most of their characters were almost blatantly ripped off from medieval fantasy, like Bertrand le Brigand (Robin Hood) along with Hugo le Petit (Little John) and Gui le Gros (Friar Tuck), Repanse de Lyonesse (Jean d'Arc), Louen Leonceour (Richard the Lionhearted) etc.

Empire on the other hand was always strange because they went for landsknecht everywhere despite it being what amounted to the Holy Roman Empire, and Empire always felt too plain to me. Not sure why because I think a historically-painted Empire force looks striking on the tabletop, but they just seem too "average".

Then of course they screwed it up with the grimdark nonsense, although I do recall the original Bretonnia being closer to the current one (oppressive knights and oppressed peasants, and not so much King Arthur).

I never did get why they didn't expand Tilea and the other human nations; beyond Dogs of War there wasn't anything about them other than the fact you had Russians (Kislev), Romans (Tilea I believe?) and a few other nationalities that just were there without ever being fleshed out.

Maybe that's what they plan to do? Make a Kings of War-esque "kingdoms of men" army list that lets you build Empire or Bretonnia or whatnot with restrictions and some special rules based on what you pick?

Tilea was more renaissance Italy than Roman Italy.

Which could have been great, because you could have gone bat gak crazy with all sorts of Da Vinci inspired war machines.

The key reason they don't get expanded though is a question of play style, take Tilea as an example, you emphasise shootiness because of crossbows etc, then you start to tread in WE territory, go too crazy on the warmachines and you risk overlapping into Dwarf or Empire play.

In order to develop a new faction, it has to offer something new in terms of playstyle that is sufficiently in demand to support the expense of developing a new range through sales, and have fluff to fit.

That's why the Bretts have struggled to get an update i believe, I'm sure I've read somewhere that designers have struggled to find a tabletop identity for them. Personally, I'd smack the Empire over the nose with a rolled up newspaper and tell them to give their knights back, and refocus Empire to allow Bretts to be THE army for cavalry, as opposed to AN army for cavalry, but when the models are out, and people are using them in their armies, that's tricky to do.

Maybe you're right about Tilea, my memory is hazy I just remember a unit of Roman Legion-looking guys from Dogs of War, and my personal favorite the Conquistador-looking pikemen (Pizzaro's Pikemen? Something like that) which earned their gold several times over in my Dark Elf army back in the day.

Fair point about the identity, I'd rather see Empire and other human kingdoms amalgamated with options like I said above, with differing focuses based on which you want (so Empire = balanced, Bretonnia = more cavalry, Tilea = more shooty, etc.)

To be honest I would be shocked if they dropped Brets.
To me, they are the best human faction because I reckon most kids grow up thinking knights are cool, and thinking puffy pants are lame. I was much more familiar with the idea of knights and peasant bowmen growing up than I was the Holy Roman Empire, Landsknecht, primitive handguns and so on.

Still, if they do drop them, no reason people shouldn't buy up the perry brother's awesome WOTR plastics and play Kings of War with them.

Returning to the idea of reforming the Bretonnians as to approach a more Space Marine stule (something that maybe would make them look more "fantasy"), I mentioned the Chronopia Firstborn line of miniatures. Looking at the Avatars of War thread, I found some pictures from future plans of Felix for miniatures that are on the same direction:













That kind of knights I would like to see...

I've always felt that the head-statues is what detracted from Bretonnia the most. There's vast potential for them to be this badass knight army, but instead they look more like a floufy clown parade. It's reached the point where the only Bretonnian armies I really enjoy looking at are made by extensively supplementing the GW models with historical mini sets, and even more extensive use of freehand heraldry and patterns.

In short, it's become an army that only looks good in the hands of a master painter, which IMHO is a death sentence.

I absolutely agree with Corgan that a more accessible theme and look would help them reach the accessibility that Space Marines lend to the 40k line. And all it would need is dual-kits making the head statues and unnecessary adornments an optional attachment. Essentially allow the old Bretonnian adherents their classic look, while allowing a "grittier" Bretonnian force to make an entrance as well.

I recognized Fireforge and Perry lines. And they are good (Perry's WotR line is superb) but I was talking about making 'high fantasy' metals, not historic plastics.

Rather like making cleaned-up versions of 2nd-5th edition brets.

Oh well. I'll go take it elsewhere... I've Chaos Warriors to focus on...