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Hello fellow tabletop enthusiasts, my name is Khoma and I'd like to showcase the kickstarter that's been in development for over a year:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/acane210/shadow-rise

'Shadow Rise' includes (painted):

1x 6 pc. Garrisoned Outpost, 7x4x7 inch exterior, 4x4x4 inch interior.
1x Summoner with Gargoyle Duocorn, Wingspan 7'' Length 5.5''
1x Hailstone Knight with Hailstone Dragon, Wingspan 8'' Length 6''
26x 28mm scale miniatures
6'' measuring tool, two dice, doodads, cards and counters.
Models are currently being modified and finalized.









Looking forward to your feedback, if you are interested in the basic game rules please visit my kickstarter page for more information.

Thank you for your time.

So I take this is done by the same people as wormhole warfare/escape from new orc city then?

Just under a different name ? Wonder if this will last longer than 2weeks ?

 CURNOW wrote:
So I take this is done by the same people as wormhole warfare/escape from new orc city then?

Just under a different name ? Wonder if this will last longer than 2weeks ?

Thanks for your question Curnow, it does not involve the same people as Wormhole Warfare or Escape from New Ork City, it is an independent project created by me, I currently do not work with a team of artists or designers at the moment.

What are the figs going to be cast in ?

 CURNOW wrote:
So I take this is done by the same people as wormhole warfare/escape from new orc city then?

Just under a different name ? Wonder if this will last longer than 2weeks ?

Does seem that they are linked somehow as both project creators are from the same city and very similar sculpting & painting style.

Figures will be cast with 'fingerprint' Smooth-on products, molds will be made with the same material. Based on this tutorial:

http://www.stormthecastle.com/miniatures/smooth-on.htm

However, I have invested in a vaccuum sealer and back up methods to get rid of air bubbles in the models.

Aeneades wrote:

 CURNOW wrote:
So I take this is done by the same people as wormhole warfare/escape from new orc city then?

Just under a different name ? Wonder if this will last longer than 2weeks ?

Does seem that they are linked somehow as both project creators are from the same city and very similar sculpting & painting style.

Thanks for your input Aeneades. this project is currently run and produced by me with unfortunately no outside assistance from previous kickstarter creators.

o.O


wow.

Hire a sculptor.
Seriously.

 marv335 wrote:
Hire a sculptor.
Seriously.

Thanks for your input Grot and Marv, I appreciate your criticism and strive to improve every day. Currently there is a six month time span before release (and a one month delivery date on production supplies) where I can commission outside artists for separate limbs on these models.

Believe it or not these models looked better without my paint job, I was extremely concerned enough that I considered using simple green to strip the paint, but since painted miniatures is part of the offering for this kickstarter, I did not want to give customers any false assumptions.

The paint job is seriously not the issue.


Your asking people for faith based money for.... those figures, and theres not really much to them. A set of ta-ta's with arms, riding a flying horse, a bunch of sculpts made with mashed potatoes, bases of the figures that are inconsistant and the models seem...Just outright odd. The whole thing reeks of "Give me money, then I disappear into the night...."

This is an insult of epic proportions. If you want honest feedback, take it and go back and rethink this project, please.

Use the kickstarter for a FEW figures, so you can commission professional sculpts of some concept art, and do this right with a sculpter, or a figure maker of quality.

If you "Strive to improve", then please- don't go a step farther, use the project for a purpose, and do this right the first time.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The paint job is seriously not the issue.


Your asking people for faith based money for.... those figures, and theres not really much to them. A set of ta-ta's with arms, riding a flying horse, a bunch of sculpts made with mashed potatoes, bases of the figures that are inconsistant and the models seem...Just outright odd. The whole thing reeks of "Give me money, then I disappear into the night...."

This is an insult of epic proportions. If you want honest feedback, take it and go back and rethink this project, please.

Use the kickstarter for a FEW figures, so you can commission professional sculpts of some concept art, and do this right with a sculpter, or a figure maker of quality.

If you "Strive to improve", then please- don't go a step farther, use the project for a purpose, and do this right the first time.

I understand your advice, originally this was a tabletop game with counters and cards instead of miniatures.
Instead of focusing my time exclusively on digital art or sculpts, I tried to appeal to both elements along with establishing a universe; maybe unsuccessfully. Right now, it seems that focusing so much work on the sculpts and placing them at the forefront of the presentation, any excitement or enthusiasm for unique game mechanics are lost.

This is not a "take the money and run" situation, Perhaps to a fault, I'm proud and honest of my work and continue to invest a lot of time and money towards this project. I've measured the volume of liquid rubber and resin these molds and casts will take and researched their respective bulk price, shipping prices, painting materials, labor and priced the product accordingly. With my own financial investments I can cover any production hazards and set a realistic release date to allow enough time to finish any shortcomings.

Playtesting this game personally with index cards for friends and my LGS gave me hope that this game would be fun, if not presentable because of its models.

Using the kickstarter for a few figures and using any extra funding towards better sculptors is a sound idea and wish it had been my plan from the start.

Minis are somewhat less than amazing. Maybe better paint jobs would save them, but I think it's actually tough to do good tentacles that don't just look like elongated blobs of green stuff.

Some of the 'trooper' types aren't bad, and I think might look better with a more inspiring paint job.

I think one reason for the comparisons to New Ork City, etc. is there seems to be a similar lack of focus. You've got a scenery piece (good quality, but very generic looking)... Some 'buggy' possessed guys that are hard to see due to the camo/mud-stained paint scheme... Some troopers that aren't bad, but are somewhat generic.... A bunch of random looking characters... Some 'trees' that look like scraps with faces added... Some sorry of winged cow, with and without rider?... Some sort of dragon?

Basing is inconsistent.

Also, why to the females all seem to have ridiculously oversized boobs?

Oof.
Okay, honestly, my advice would be ditch the models. They look terrible, and as others have pointed out; asking people to have faith the models they invest in might be more acceptable is a hell of a stretch.

Focus on the game itself, as even that looks like it needs work. The basic tutorial on the kickstarter page is a jumbled mess.
Example of one paragraph:
"If a shadow rise player's model moves into base contact with an opposing model. The unit is now controlled by the shadow rise player: If any models are in base contact with this unit next turn. They are also converted. Players must spend one inch of movement to climb roofs."
Ignoring the awful grammar (I'd suggest having someone proof read your stuff before putting it up.), and the imbalanced sounding rule; what has movement to a roof got to do with the capturing of base contact units? You're outlining capturing enemy units and then suddenly you're talking about movement distances.
The whole description is a mess.

If you have faith in your game system then take the time to explain it better, with better diagrams (They're awful). Focus on the game, take the rules to gaming clubs and have people use proxy models, to give feedback.
At the moment it sounds like you are trying to make a tabletop MOBA, and it's been hastily thrown together.
And finally; lose the video game stretch goal. That looks equally as terrible, and is an entirely inappropriate stretch goal for people investing in a tabletop game.

That's all assuming this isn't just a cash in and run attempt.

Good luck. You're going to need it.

 Khoma wrote:

Using the kickstarter for a few figures and using any extra funding towards better sculptors is a sound idea and wish it had been my plan from the start.

I think people are going to judge you off the sculpts presented. It might be better to not show them if they're not up to the desired level of quality. Maybe focus on what you do have, and try to get a few sketches made of key characters, troop types, etc. to show a representative sample of each faction.

I'm not seeing a lot of info on your background, which contributes to the general feeling that this is not serious. You may want to focus on your background more, if that's your strength: So it's the 60s, but everything looks somewhat steam-punk, and you mention elves, dwarves, etc. but your characters look like horror characters with a look that could fit better with the 1920s, or earlier. Some lovecraftian tentacles and slime, but not a lot of the elements you call out in your descriptive image.

OK if this ever (a) funds and (b) ships, I'll buy a beer for anyone in thread at a UK games show I attend (Salute, Warfare etc)

The figures are awfully sculpted, amateurishly painted, unlikely to be castable and the finances for the funding just don't stack up.

That's before the question of whether you believe that the 'creator' has nothing to do wiith the New Orc City and other associated failed Kickstarter who has learned the lesson that setting the funding goal too high means that you don't receive any money whereas a $500 goal might just stumble across a few people that didn't see those attempts. Make your own decisions there.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The paint job is seriously not the issue.


Your asking people for faith based money for.... those figures, and theres not really much to them. A set of ta-ta's with arms, riding a flying horse, a bunch of sculpts made with mashed potatoes, bases of the figures that are inconsistant and the models seem...Just outright odd. The whole thing reeks of "Give me money, then I disappear into the night...."

This is an insult of epic proportions. If you want honest feedback, take it and go back and rethink this project, please.

Use the kickstarter for a FEW figures, so you can commission professional sculpts of some concept art, and do this right with a sculpter, or a figure maker of quality.

If you "Strive to improve", then please- don't go a step farther, use the project for a purpose, and do this right the first time.

I'd stay away from extending observations of sculpt quality to criminal motive. There is nothing to indicate that he/she is anything but a passionate gamer who will come out with exactly what you see especially as it is so achieveable (at least up to the video game part that has a 2,000% higher funding).

Unfortunately, I agree with the rest. My first impression when looking at the pictures is that they looked like the paper mache cat from an episode of the History Channel Pickers show.



I'd echo the sentiments above in getting a professional (or at least professional in training) sculptor. Also, I'm not sure what to make of the name of the game as the grammar seems kind of wonky. You have something called a sunrise which is one word and a noun which is what I assume you're going for with "Shadow Rise" which makes me think in two words it should be "A Shadow Rises"... but that sounds a bit too pretentiously poetic. Unless the term is already trademarks (something you should look into if you haven't already), I'd say go with the one word title.

My (personal) thought would be to get the game out to a wider audience and have it start to make a name for itself before you take the plunge on pimping out a deluxe version.
What about putting up some print and play files? Have you gone to places like Board Game Geek and Game Crafters to get some input/ feedback/ comments? I haven't seen anything there yet, and that's really where you need to start if you want to get a good game up and running.

Where do you want to see this game go? Are you aiming more at the tabletop/ skirmish crowd, or the board gamer crowd?
Reading through your rules, it almost seems the game would play better on a grid than on a free form tabletop. I think a board with dedicated marking for summoning lanes would work more effectively. Tokens would probably work just as effectively and probably cut down on your overhead as well.


I also find it incredibly hard to believe you'll get that many figures, scenery, cards, and... doodads cast, produced, boxed, and packaged for the amount you're asking for.

I could see a set of your Meridian Squad figures being something tabletop gamers would be interested in for various game systems if you got the quality of the sculpts stepped up. Those guys definitely have some potential, and since they're part of the core of your game, if you focus a later campaign on getting a set of those guys tooled up by a professional in resin (or even just have them tweak what you've already got) you might have a stronger foundation from which to build your game on.

Good luck!

 Balance wrote:
Minis are somewhat less than amazing. Maybe better paint jobs would save them, but I think it's actually tough to do good tentacles that don't just look like elongated blobs of green stuff.

Some of the 'trooper' types aren't bad, and I think might look better with a more inspiring paint job.

I think one reason for the comparisons to New Ork City, etc. is there seems to be a similar lack of focus. You've got a scenery piece (good quality, but very generic looking)... Some 'buggy' possessed guys that are hard to see due to the camo/mud-stained paint scheme... Some troopers that aren't bad, but are somewhat generic.... A bunch of random looking characters... Some 'trees' that look like scraps with faces added... Some sorry of winged cow, with and without rider?... Some sort of dragon?

Basing is inconsistent.

Also, why to the females all seem to have ridiculously oversized boobs?

Because of my sculpting ability, my female figures would look like men so I tried to compensate and failed.

 Squidbot wrote:
Oof.
Okay, honestly, my advice would be ditch the models. They look terrible, and as others have pointed out; asking people to have faith the models they invest in might be more acceptable is a hell of a stretch.

Focus on the game itself, as even that looks like it needs work. The basic tutorial on the kickstarter page is a jumbled mess.
Example of one paragraph:
"If a shadow rise player's model moves into base contact with an opposing model. The unit is now controlled by the shadow rise player: If any models are in base contact with this unit next turn. They are also converted. Players must spend one inch of movement to climb roofs."
Ignoring the awful grammar (I'd suggest having someone proof read your stuff before putting it up.), and the imbalanced sounding rule; what has movement to a roof got to do with the capturing of base contact units? You're outlining capturing enemy units and then suddenly you're talking about movement distances.
The whole description is a mess.

If you have faith in your game system then take the time to explain it better, with better diagrams (They're awful). Focus on the game, take the rules to gaming clubs and have people use proxy models, to give feedback.
At the moment it sounds like you are trying to make a tabletop MOBA, and it's been hastily thrown together.
And finally; lose the video game stretch goal. That looks equally as terrible, and is an entirely inappropriate stretch goal for people investing in a tabletop game.

That's all assuming this isn't just a cash in and run attempt.

Good luck. You're going to need it.

The rule for roof movement is for any models that happen to be placed on the roof of the garrisoned outpost that the Shadow Rise player would need to scale the building to take over the unit.

 Balance wrote:

 Khoma wrote:

Using the kickstarter for a few figures and using any extra funding towards better sculptors is a sound idea and wish it had been my plan from the start.

I think people are going to judge you off the sculpts presented. It might be better to not show them if they're not up to the desired level of quality. Maybe focus on what you do have, and try to get a few sketches made of key characters, troop types, etc. to show a representative sample of each faction.

I'm not seeing a lot of info on your background, which contributes to the general feeling that this is not serious. You may want to focus on your background more, if that's your strength: So it's the 60s, but everything looks somewhat steam-punk, and you mention elves, dwarves, etc. but your characters look like horror characters with a look that could fit better with the 1920s, or earlier. Some lovecraftian tentacles and slime, but not a lot of the elements you call out in your descriptive image.

Shadow Rise is an alienated nation in the southern hemisphere, a civilization that was barely known to the outside world (because visitors would be killed by the Summoner.) the setting is the 1960's because it was still an era where foreign cultures were still being explored and discovered and electric communication technology was still young.

When creating Shadow Rise, the inspiration was North Korea with a Cthulu twist, a predominantly single ethnic group that was cut off from technology and the outside world by it's oppressive leader.

Meridian Squad's inspiration was the United Nations mixed with the events of the Century of Progress International Exposition but replaced with fantasy races.

richred_uk wrote:
OK if this ever (a) funds and (b) ships, I'll buy a beer for anyone in thread at a UK games show I attend (Salute, Warfare etc)

The figures are awfully sculpted, amateurishly painted, unlikely to be castable and the finances for the funding just don't stack up.

That's before the question of whether you believe that the 'creator' has nothing to do wiith the New Orc City and other associated failed Kickstarter who has learned the lesson that setting the funding goal too high means that you don't receive any money whereas a $500 goal might just stumble across a few people that didn't see those attempts. Make your own decisions there.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:


My (personal) thought would be to get the game out to a wider audience and have it start to make a name for itself before you take the plunge on pimping out a deluxe version.
What about putting up some print and play files? Have you gone to places like Board Game Geek and Game Crafters to get some input/ feedback/ comments? I haven't seen anything there yet, and that's really where you need to start if you want to get a good game up and running.

Where do you want to see this game go? Are you aiming more at the tabletop/ skirmish crowd, or the board gamer crowd?
Reading through your rules, it almost seems the game would play better on a grid than on a free form tabletop. I think a board with dedicated marking for summoning lanes would work more effectively. Tokens would probably work just as effectively and probably cut down on your overhead as well.


I also find it incredibly hard to believe you'll get that many figures, scenery, cards, and... doodads cast, produced, boxed, and packaged for the amount you're asking for.

I could see a set of your Meridian Squad figures being something tabletop gamers would be interested in for various game systems if you got the quality of the sculpts stepped up. Those guys definitely have some potential, and since they're part of the core of your game, if you focus a later campaign on getting a set of those guys tooled up by a professional in resin (or even just have them tweak what you've already got) you might have a stronger foundation from which to build your game on.

Good luck!

Thanks, I appreciate it. I already own a 5 gallon barrel of Smooth-on 300 rubber and resin, with Kickstarter funds I can purchase even more materials. I could make ten copies of this game, the initial kickstarter funding goal. The cards would have been printed and constructed by me unless I exceed my funding goal by nearly $1000. My profit margin would practically be zero but my hopes were to have a successful tabletop game on my resume for future applications to jobs / professions. That is my ultimate goal with this kickstarter.

This kickstarter will most likely be canceled. After these valid criticisms it's only obvious that I need to spend more time or none at all. As one person the quantity of workload was overwhelming and spread too thin. The integrity of the work is too poor. Seeing other tabletop games that use simple miniature models such as Catan, I thought these miniatures would be something people would want to purchase for their wargaming armies in addition to playing Shadow Rise.

 Khoma wrote:


The rule for roof movement is for any models that happen to be placed on the roof of the garrisoned outpost that the Shadow Rise player would need to scale the building to take over the unit.

Yeah, you totally missed the point. Never mind, you seem to be totally ignoring solid advice from people here, so I'm going to come down on the scam side.

There's a misunderstanding, I completely admit there wasnt enough time spent to make the tutorial completely coherent among other things, my reply was an attempt to better help understand that specific point.

I can't think of any of those models I would want to use.

If you have any friends with artistic talent, maybe hit them up for drawing characters for cardboard cut-outs.

The artful characters from King of Tokyo were what convinced my kids to convince me to buy it.

Let's keep the comments constructive and useful please people, no need to start throwing accusations around.

Thanks.

Khoma can I ask how old you are if that's not too rude ?

Appreciate it Reds8n,

I'm 22

 Khoma wrote:
Figures will be cast with 'fingerprint' Smooth-on products, molds will be made with the same material. Based on this tutorial:

http://www.stormthecastle.com/miniatures/smooth-on.htm

However, I have invested in a vaccuum sealer and back up methods to get rid of air bubbles in the models.

Aeneades wrote:

 CURNOW wrote:
So I take this is done by the same people as wormhole warfare/escape from new orc city then?

Just under a different name ? Wonder if this will last longer than 2weeks ?

Does seem that they are linked somehow as both project creators are from the same city and very similar sculpting & painting style.

Thanks for your input Aeneades. this project is currently run and produced by me with unfortunately no outside assistance from previous kickstarter creators.

But you are the guy who 'sculpted' and 'painted' the 'miniatures' for those other projects right? There's no need to be obtuse.

Ah ok .never mind then.
As I said before with the exotitans/new orc figures you may want to look at the designs if you want to be able to cast them in resin as those have far to many undercuts to trap resin in and rip your moles.

If you do end up canceling- DO NOT stop getting feedback, especially from places like here, game crafters, and bgg if you're serious about wanting to get this game out there.

Some of us CAN be harsh and off putting, but it certainly isn't out of spite. There's been a lot of sound and valid advice offered here, and I hope you act on it.

Like I said before, PNP files are a great way to get your rules out to a wider audience. Get people outside your immediate area to give it a try. Get feedback on it. Post rules on BGG. Get feedback on it. Post them here. Get feedback on it. Be willing to adapt and toss what the community feels doesn't work. If you've got your gameplay refined where even using proxy models is smooth and fun, then you're definitely headed in the right direction.

MOBA/ Tower defense table top games are still a pretty untapped niche that's definitely waiting to be explored.

In the meantime, look into getting a core set of figures tightened up sculpt- wise. Look into hiring someone while you continue to work on your own skills- they're a step above mine, so I can't fault you for that!

If you're serious about all this, definitely keep us posted and updated on how things progress!

Here's my honest feedback, I applaud you taking a chance to work on something and try to bring it into being. Most people never have the guts to try and even when we fail at something it can be a positive as we learn from every experience.

That said I think the minis could use a lot more work, keep practicing at the sculpting and don't give up trying to improve as it's the only way anyone gets better.

As somebody that runs a full time casting business I think you need to re-run your numbers and material calculations as to me it looks like you will be doing all your casting without making a profit. It looks like you're situated to break even at best and are more than likely headed for a loss. 5 gallons of material is a HUGE amount of stuff. I cast miniatures and parts every day and that would easily last me 5-6 months.

Don't be afraid to be ambitious but at the same time know that you'll likely need to put in a lot more work. If this is something your really want to do it may require a few start overs before you get things right, so if you do run into set backs try and learn from them as much as possible, then adjust strategies and try again.

 paulson games wrote:
As somebody that runs a full time casting business I think you need to re-run your numbers and material calculations as to me it looks like you will be doing all your casting without making a profit. It looks like you're situated to break even at best and are more than likely headed for a loss. 5 gallons of material is a HUGE amount of stuff. I cast miniatures and parts every day and that would easily last me 5-6 months.

Seconding this. The gallon of Resin we bought before Thanksgiving is still being used, though we will need to get another gallon before the end of the month.

Models look very bad. No other way to say it. : /

Either hire another sculptor or think about getting a great illustrator and have heavy cardstock tokens for your figures.

This is barely student grade work.