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Relapse wrote:


It's not like very few people own guns (47% of Americans report ownership the number that own guns and don't report it is anyone's guess)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

yet alcohol has an 8 to 1 lead over gun related homicide as a cause of death.

Whether this reflected a true decline in gun ownership or a cultural shift in Americans' willingness to say they had guns is unclear.

That has to be one of the most true statements in that article. I tend to lean towards the latter here... With all the recent stories of the untrustworthiness of the US Gov't. I feel that more people are going to be reluctant to stand up and say "yep, Ive got guns"

 Minx wrote:

Relapse wrote:
yet alcohol has an 8 to 1 lead over gun related homicide as a cause of death.

Why are you comparing (slow) alcohol related suicides with gun related homicides?

I think he's concerned about deaths in general.

 Soladrin wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
A 100% of people who breathe air die.

As I said, alcohol death is a cause for humor with people, yet they freak at the far fewer number of people that are killed by guns.

For me the main reason for that would be, guns kill other people, alcohol involves a lot more killing yourself, which I don't mind.

All of the victims of drunk drivers would disagree. And has been pointed out, the majority of gun deaths are suicide, so their mostly for killing yourself as well.

I think you ahve to factor in the propinquity of said death. Unless you get killed by someone who drank, which is a sad occurance, having a drink or five will likely only kill you many years down the line and we are not fully-equipped to deal with such long term consequences of things that appear harmless. All the kids I teach who smoke disbelieve the statistics on tobacco-related disease and death, just because one cigarette doesn't really harm them, in fact it makes them feel great.

Speaking of which, do you also have access to those stats? I'm curious all of a sudden.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Minx wrote:

Relapse wrote:
yet alcohol has an 8 to 1 lead over gun related homicide as a cause of death.

Why are you comparing (slow) alcohol related suicides with gun related homicides?

I think he's concerned about deaths in general.

In that case the ratio would have been 9/3 or 10/3 (if the drunk driving related death are not part of the quoted 88000).

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Minx wrote:

Relapse wrote:
yet alcohol has an 8 to 1 lead over gun related homicide as a cause of death.

Why are you comparing (slow) alcohol related suicides with gun related homicides?

I think he's concerned about deaths in general.

That is correct. It doesn't matter if the death is fast or slow, at the end of it, more people are lilled yearly by alcohol than guns, even though there is a high percentage of people that admit owning guns. Add to the alcohol deaths, the other negative effects of alcohol, not only on the one drinking it but also those that have to be around the one drinking.

Again, from the CDC:

Excessive alcohol use has immediate effects that increase the risk of many harmful health conditions. These immediate effects are most often the result of binge drinking and include the following—

Unintentional injuries, including traffic injuries, falls, drownings, burns, and unintentional firearm injuries.

Violence, including intimate partner violence and child maltreatment. About 35% of victims report that offenders are under the influence of alcohol.

Alcohol use is also associated with 2 out of 3 incidents of intimate partner violence.

Studies have also shown that alcohol is a leading factor in child maltreatment and neglect cases, and is the most frequent substance abused among these parents.

Risky sexual behaviors, including unprotected sex, sex with multiple partners, and increased risk of sexual assault. These behaviors can result in unintended pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases.

Miscarriage and stillbirth among pregnant women, and a combination of physical and mental birth defects among children that last throughout life.

Alcohol poisoning, a medical emergency that results from high blood alcohol levels that suppress the central nervous system and can cause loss of consciousness, low blood pressure and body temperature, coma, respiratory depression, or death.

Long-Term Health Risks

Over time, excessive alcohol use can lead to the development of chronic diseases, neurological impairments and social problems. These include but are not limited to—
Neurological problems, including dementia, stroke and neuropathy.

Cardiovascular problems, including myocardial infarction, cardiomyopathy, atrial fibrillation and hypertension.

Psychiatric problems, including depression, anxiety, and suicide.

Social problems, including unemployment, lost productivity, and family problems.

Cancer of the mouth, throat, esophagus, liver, colon, and breast.20 In general, the risk of cancer increases with increasing amounts of alcohol.

Liver diseases, including—
Alcoholic hepatitis.
Cirrhosis, which is among the 15 leading causes of all deaths in the United States.

Among persons with Hepatitis C virus, worsening of liver function and interference with medications used to treat this condition.

Other gastrointestinal problems, including pancreatitis and gastritis.

An utterly pointless gun thread based upon a false equivalency, I've not seen one of them before!

Nuclear weaponry don't kill anyone at all each year while according to some random internet source peanuts kill 150-200 people a year in the US. That means that loosely regulated private ownership of nuclear weaponry is perfectly safe. Right? Right?

Is there some sort of requirement to recycle the same threads ad nauseum?

 Palindrome wrote:


Is there some sort of requirement to recycle the same threads ad nauseum?

Until you rise up, demand your right to self-defense and arms, and overthrow your obviously oppressive regimes, yep, there is a requirement for these threads

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think you ahve to factor in the propinquity of said death. Unless you get killed by someone who drank, which is a sad occurance, having a drink or five will likely only kill you many years down the line and we are not fully-equipped to deal with such long term consequences of things that appear harmless. All the kids I teach who smoke disbelieve the statistics on tobacco-related disease and death, just because one cigarette doesn't really harm them, in fact it makes them feel great.

Speaking of which, do you also have access to those stats? I'm curious all of a sudden.

Yep, the links I posted are from the Center for Disease control website. Just jump on the links and they will take you there. The statistic that surprised me was the fact that most gun deaths (roughly 60%) are suicides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Palindrome wrote:
An utterly pointless gun thread based upon a false equivalency, I've not seen one of them before!

Nuclear weaponry don't kill anyone at all each year while according to some random internet source peanuts kill 150-200 people a year in the US. That means that loosely regulated private ownership of nuclear weaponry is perfectly safe. Right? Right?

Is there some sort of requirement to recycle the same threads ad nauseum?

Glad you saw the thread title and instead of moving on, felt the need to jump in. You must have felt required to.


How is the information I provided a false equivelancy? Did you bother to check the statistics provided?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well
1:Guns tend, not always as shown before, meant to kill other people(And mostly yourself if you roll a one)
2:No one is going into schools and killing people with tequila shots
3: Alchohol Tastes good, a lead bullet im sure doesnt(I have yet t been able to catch a bullet in my mouth)
4: Drunk people are hilarious, Dead people not so much(Sometimes though)
5: Guns hit on touch AC and have no place in my fantasy

2: I'd love to see that-"excuse me kids, today's lesson is on 'body shots'. Gina, will you come up and lift your shirt so we can demonstrate?" This is only appropriate with 18yr old seniors, of which "Gina" is in this case.

4: stick the hand of a corpse down his own pants and make him look like he's jacking it. Hilarity ensues.


Also...it's another gun thread. Hurrah...

Not sure why this justifies guns?

 carlos13th wrote:
You also need to look into other statistics such as the number of gun owners compared to people who drink alcohol.

47% of Americans admit to owning a gun. There are more out there that own at least one, but don't admit to it.

60% of Americans drink.

We have these statistics, yet we have 11,000 people murdered by guns a year compared to 88,000 from alcohol related causes.

This pretty much puts into perspective how dangerous gun ownership is in relation to other recreational items. The fact of the matter is, guns go beyond the area of recreation to a definite need, depending where in the country you are.. Alcohol rarely, if ever, fits that bill.

Relapse wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
You also need to look into other statistics such as the number of gun owners compared to people who drink alcohol.

47% of Americans admit to owning a gun there are more out there that don't admit to it, but who knows how many.

60% of Americans drink.

We have these statistics, yet we have 11,000 people murdered by guns a year compared to 88,000 from alcohol related causes.

This pretty much puts into perspective how dangerous gun ownership is in relation to other recreational items. The fact of the matter is, guns go beyond the area of recreation to a definite need, depending where in the country you are.. Alcohol rarely, if ever, fits that bill.

Considering it's technically a poison, I don't see how there would ever be a "need" for it.

Relapse wrote:

How is the information I provided a false equivelancy? Did you bother to check the statistics provided?

I ignore almost all gun threads a s a matter of course given that they are nearly all the same anyway. I rarely skim brand new threads if they are less than a couple of pages but I almost always regret doing so.

It is a false equivelency as alcoholism and gun ownership have nothing in common. My nuclear weapon Vs peanut analogy should have made that clear.

If you are going to have a frank debate about gun control then at least use proper evidence.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Not sure why this justifies guns?

Not to justify anything. I am just pointing out that a fairly large percentage of people are outraged over guns because of the number of people murdered a year, yet don't think twice about supporting an industry that kills 8 times as many yearly.

In other words you are justifying guns.

 Palindrome wrote:

Relapse wrote:

How is the information I provided a false equivelancy? Did you bother to check the statistics provided?

I ignore almost all gun threads a s a matter of course given that they are nearly all the same anyway. I rarely skim brand new threads if they are less than a couple of pages but I almost always regret doing so.

It is a false equivelency as alcoholism and gun ownership have nothing in common. My nuclear weapon Vs peanut analogy should have made that clear.

If you are going to have a frank debate about gun control then at least use proper evidence.

Statistics provided by a neutral agency are not evidence, or not what you want to admit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other words you are justifying guns.

Nope, don't own a gun, never felt the need. Just pointing out hypocrisy.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other words you are justifying guns.

Well, in other words the sky is purple.

I can type words that make no sense as well.

He's making a clear point, there is a double standard out there. He is in no way making a justification of anything.

He's making a clear point that because people die from alcohol it is OK for people to die from guns.

That is a justification of guns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
He's making a clear point that because people die from alcohol it is OK for people to die from guns.

That is a justification of guns.

To repeat myself, but slower, in the hope you understand this time,....... Pointing........out.........hypocricy.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
He's making a clear point that because people die from alcohol it is OK for people to die from guns.

That is a justification of guns.

Have you even read any of his posts? Or are you just being difficult on purpose? I'm tending to think the latter.

He has clearly said the only point he is making is that there is a double standard in how the two items are viewed. Not a single post of his has in anyway mentioned any support for gun rights. Not one. If you are interpreting it for that, then that is your own issue.

 djones520 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
He's making a clear point that because people die from alcohol it is OK for people to die from guns.

That is a justification of guns.

Have you even read any of his posts? Or are you just being difficult on purpose? I'm tending to think the latter.

He has clearly said the only point he is making is that there is a double standard in how the two items are viewed. Not a single post of his has in anyway mentioned any support for gun rights. Not one. If you are interpreting it for that, then that is your own issue.

I'm pretty sure he's just trolling.

 djones520 wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
A 100% of people who breathe air die.

As I said, alcohol death is a cause for humor with people, yet they freak at the far fewer number of people that are killed by guns.

For me the main reason for that would be, guns kill other people, alcohol involves a lot more killing yourself, which I don't mind.

All of the victims of drunk drivers would disagree. And has been pointed out, the majority of gun deaths are suicide, so their mostly for killing yourself as well.

Victims of drunk drivers would disagree that alcohol suicide is something I don't mind ... what?

Besides, I think the punishments for drunk driving are way too lax, everywhere.

Relapse wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
You also need to look into other statistics such as the number of gun owners compared to people who drink alcohol.

47% of Americans admit to owning a gun. There are more out there that own at least one, but don't admit to it.

60% of Americans drink.

We have these statistics, yet we have 11,000 people murdered by guns a year compared to 88,000 from alcohol related causes.

This pretty much puts into perspective how dangerous gun ownership is in relation to other recreational items. The fact of the matter is, guns go beyond the area of recreation to a definite need, depending where in the country you are.. Alcohol rarely, if ever, fits that bill.

How often does the average American go shooting, versus go drinking?

I went through this before, and usually get ignored:

The average American spends something like 300 hours a year operating a motor vehicle, and exponentially more time than that involved with motor vehicles (such as pedestrians crossing the street, etc). The average American spends nowhere near that much time with firearms. Not even close. So you can't look at the comparison as a matter of X guns and Y cars versus A deaths and B deaths. You have to look at the deaths against the rate of time spend using the tools.

And when that happens, I'd bet that you find *nothing* compares to the lethality of firearms.



ALSO: this is a really tired thread. Why was it started again?

Because guns n' 'MURICA.

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other words you are justifying guns.

Nope, don't own a gun, never felt the need. Just pointing out hypocrisy.

That's not hypocrisy at all, an example of hypocrisy would be saying that there is a gun problem in your country and then protesting against the government for trying to install new polices that could help reduce gun violence that would be hypocrisy, as hypocrisy is saying you believe in

something and then not following through with what you believe in. Also just because someone is for more gun control doesn't mean they aren't concerned about alcohol related deaths.

 Soladrin wrote:
Because guns n' 'MURICA.

Exactly!

'nuff said.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
You also need to look into other statistics such as the number of gun owners compared to people who drink alcohol.

47% of Americans admit to owning a gun. There are more out there that own at least one, but don't admit to it.

60% of Americans drink.

We have these statistics, yet we have 11,000 people murdered by guns a year compared to 88,000 from alcohol related causes.

This pretty much puts into perspective how dangerous gun ownership is in relation to other recreational items. The fact of the matter is, guns go beyond the area of recreation to a definite need, depending where in the country you are.. Alcohol rarely, if ever, fits that bill.

How often does the average American go shooting, versus go drinking?

I went through this before, and usually get ignored:

The average American spends something like 300 hours a year operating a motor vehicle, and exponentially more time than that involved with motor vehicles (such as pedestrians crossing the street, etc). The average American spends nowhere near that much time with firearms. Not even close. So you can't look at the comparison as a matter of X guns and Y cars versus A deaths and B deaths. You have to look at the deaths against the rate of time spend using the tools.

And when that happens, I'd bet that you find *nothing* compares to the lethality of firearms.



ALSO: this is a really tired thread. Why was it started again?

Yet you have people out there saying those who own guns are a danger to society, despite the fact that, according to you, gun owners don't use guns as much as people drink alcohol.
There are about 10% more people in the U.S. that drink than those who admit to owning guns, yet the death rate for alcohol related causes is 8 to 1 over gun related homicide.

As far as looking at the times involved in drinking versus gun use, it would seem that alcohol is a greater danger because of addiction, causing the drinker to use it more.

Just to reiterate,I am not a gun owner and I think any untimely death is horrible, whether by alcohol or gun, but there is a huge element of hypocricy with those who preach heavy gun control or abolition, yet frequently use and share alcohol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheesecat wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other words you are justifying guns.

Nope, don't own a gun, never felt the need. Just pointing out hypocrisy.

That's not hypocrisy at all, an example of hypocrisy would be saying that there is a gun problem in your country and then protesting against the government for trying to install new polices that could help reduce gun violence that would be hypocrisy, as hypocrisy is saying you believe in

something and then not following through with what you believe in. Also just because someone is for more gun control doesn't mean they aren't concerned about alcohol related deaths.

Then how come we never hear from them about alcohol related death?

Relapse wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
You also need to look into other statistics such as the number of gun owners compared to people who drink alcohol.

47% of Americans admit to owning a gun. There are more out there that own at least one, but don't admit to it.

60% of Americans drink.

We have these statistics, yet we have 11,000 people murdered by guns a year compared to 88,000 from alcohol related causes.

This pretty much puts into perspective how dangerous gun ownership is in relation to other recreational items. The fact of the matter is, guns go beyond the area of recreation to a definite need, depending where in the country you are.. Alcohol rarely, if ever, fits that bill.

That high on gun ownership? That surprises me even more so than only 60% of Americans drinking alcohol.

 djones520 wrote:


Considering it's technically a poison, I don't see how there would ever be a "need" for it.

My liver consistently makes chemicals that attempt to kill me, fortunately, doctors have found that if I drink enough alcohol, I can temporarily kill those cells