The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**jy2**

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
For epic trolling, run this list against your opponent:

HQ:
Tervigon
Tervigon

Elite:
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope

Troop:
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30

Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30

Total - 1785

So you still end up with 65 points to play around with in an 1850 game. Each of your turns is going to take 2 hours+, but the look on your opponent's face when you drop 275 models on the table (with the potential to spawn more) will be priceless.

That wouldn't be a fun army to play against. It'll actually be very boring to play against. BTW, your venomthropes aren't going to last. Get a bastion for one of them.

BTW, a pure horde Tyranid army is not a viable nor is it a competitive Tyranid army.

Therion wrote:
I think the only one getting trolled is the poor bastard who has to buy, paint and assemble that.

Lol.

Kain wrote:

But the best part?

Monstrous creatures. In all the slots.

Word.

It's the return of Nidzilla.

bodazoka wrote:
What would be better?

A mix of 20 x devil gaunts and 10 x normal gaunt's outflanking with a Prime. (roughly 350 points)

The above outflanking with out a prime and assuming I can get a flyrant in range. (roughly 200 point's but without the flexibility of guaranteed synapse)

A Tervigon outflanking and then creating X number of gaunt's (195 + X - the TMC + say.. 9 gaunt's shooting likely is not as powerful as any of the above?)

I do not have my codex on me so Im not sure which would be the best threat for the most efficient price..

Personally, I run 2 flyrants so at least for me, outflanking with a Prime in the unit is out of the question.

I prefer to use my tervigon as a midfield or backfield anchor for the rest of my army, so that leaves me with option #2. If I ran this unit, on the turn they come in they will be ok. Afterwards, I'm going to have to have my flyrants nearby.

Naw wrote:
Before the horde codex updates everyone was guessing how the meta would change. Now we have an updated horde codex, but not quite what was expected. I guess a horde of monstrous creatures also count as a horde

To an outside observer who has read these threads and a lot of batreps, this is how I feel:

Tau and Eldar are still up there alone. Chaos Daemons find a bad match up with the Tyranids now, could be that folks don't know how to take them. Necrons I haven't seen much in action, but they do what they always do, ie. try the last turn grab. That leaves SM and CSM then. Both seem somewhat ill-equipped to take out a large number of MC's.

Good observations, though I'd say that necrons are up there along with Tau/Eldar.

Also, Draigowing with a brotherhood banner can still give Tyranids problems.

**Deraiderspam**

Draigowing Clearly hasn't become acquainted with Exocrines yet!

**PrinceOfMadness**

jy2 wrote:

That wouldn't be a fun army to play against. It'll actually be very boring to play against. BTW, your venomthropes aren't going to last. Get a bastion for one of them.

BTW, a pure horde Tyranid army is not a viable nor is it a competitive Tyranid army.

All good points, though that list I'd posted wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I intended it more as a comment on how many bugs you could fit into a standard sized game for fairly cheap. Heck, the 180 gants come out to just a little over 700 points. I still think it would be worth it for one game just to see your opponent's face.

**Niiai**

Stormoffires do not come with that condescending tone calling me sir and saying I do not know much about Tyranids. I did not claim to know much about Tyranids, I was asking a question among peers, fellow Tyranid enthusiasts who frequent this forum to see what they think about this particular train of thought.

The book did in fact get slimmer: Hive tyrant cost less and his wing upgrades got cheaper. A lot of choises in the elite department. All of the gaunts got cheaper in the troop department if you run them bare. The harpy got cheaper, shrikes got cheaper, in the heavy suport department things have never been this good as most of the options got a huge shawe in points. Carnifexes droped by 25%. On the mawlock you now pay a whopping 24 points for one T6 wound with a 3+ save. Even the all 5th edition codex all tar star trygon got cheaper. The biovore cost less, gained a wound and it leaves clusters of spore mines behind when it misses. On top of that a lot of the upgrades also got priced down, the shrikes for instance is now a riot compared to the old once. On top of that you can ad the fact that you do not have to buy weapons upgrades for entire broods, just some of them. And that last part is huge. All of this ads up.

As ductvade have evidence on and I was pointing out you get much more for your army these days. Even if you pay 50 points more for the Tervigon you still end up having 250 points more to buy an 2000 point army for. And those 250 points are worth more noe then before. So yes, things are better, you have more points to play with despite things like Scything Tallons not re-rolling it is now so much more wounds for the opposing army to kill. For Tyranids, that is as Eddies Izzard would frace it "A good thing".

Now back to the question at hand: If you want the Tervigon as troops in the old codex you would buy the Tervigon and usualy give it adrenaline glands, toxic sacks and the options to roll for 2 extra powers. You would also buy 10 termagaunts. This would cost you 240 points. In the new dex you would buy 1 Tervigon with thorax swarm and 30 termagaunst wich will cost you 325 points. You are now paying 85 points exstra for 20 exstra models compared to the old codex for this new get up. It is however 15 points of if you where to buy 30 'gaunst and a Trigon in the old codex. There are some negative things with this:

1: You would never buy a unit of 30 'gaunts.
2: They no longer get adrenaline glands and toxic sacks.
3: You will roll less powers meaning the Tervigon will not have as much utility.
4: It explodes bigger now.
5: It dies not re-roll 1 in mellee.
6: You can no longer roll Irion Arm.

On the pluss side:

1: You would be ludacris to buy 30 'gaunts in the old codex as you needed to tailor a tTranid list with presission. Getting a cheaper codex means there might be more room for things like this. Also now you can buy 10 to 15 of them with devoueres and use the 4 points one as meat shield. 8 points for a gaunt with a devourer is a very good price. And adding a wound for 4 points is a bargain.
2: Most of the powers on the tyranid list are good, but catalyst is exceptionally good. I like this new psychic table.
3: We got the thorax swarm. Flamers are very good in 6th edition and this flamer is exceptionally well. While the MC's they come on in this book are expensive, the thorax swarm is a huge bargain.

The old Tervigon was not actually that great in a fight. It would make babies and cast psychic powers. Although it could smash attack it had a terrible WS and very few attacks. You mostly bought it for the utility it brought, not the offence. Although a 50% chance of rolling iron arm could change this it still has a poor WS and few attacks. It also was reliable synapse, something you had a hard part justifying elsewhere in the book. I keep brining up the point of the thorax swarm because this will turn out to be a real gem. Now you do not want a Tervigon near your troops as this flamer is bad ass. You do not want to charge it because talngling with and MC with elite troops is not good, and charging it now means you will loose models to the wall of death.

As for the explosion thing I do not remember the wording of how far out you can place your termagant, but even if this is only 6" you can still run the gaunts and Terigon away from each other 50% of the time with an average roll of 7" on two run dice.

Did it get worse? Definably. Did it get bad? That is what I am asking. It might just have gone from being good in a bad codex to being decent in a codex with a lot more viable options in it. The old codex was not a very good codex as certain units where much better then others, often because of bad prising. While a lot of peple are complaining about the synapse it did get easier to get synapse in this codex. Both shrikes and zoantropes became actual options to consider. (The Warrior Prime did take a hit though.) If you are really short on synapse take dominion. Aslo, failing a leadership test is not so bad on a lot of the MC's as theese are fearless. Usualy they now try to do what they are supposed to do like charging or shooting. The Tervigon is not bad at all, it just went from being a mandatory unit for so many reasons (a solid troop choise with psyckick powers that made more troops and was one of the few units to provide synapse) to being just a unit. But I would not say it is bad. I do not know if it is over costed.

I am also wondering if the Hive Guards are bad ether. They still have the best gun in the codex. In fact that gun got better as it now always ignore cover and not just very often. What got nerfed was the BS of one point and a 5 point increase. It is still a 24" range with a very good chance of opening transports and other vehicles before you charge in with all your mellee/double purpose units. I do not know if that is bad.

Of course it now competes with the Fly'rant, Dakka Carnifexes, Zoantropes, and Exorite for viable options to shoot transports and other things while it was the only option in the old codex. Zoantropes are now a viable elite choice, and the Venomtropes can push your army in another direction then the old codex could. Shroud and more wounds in the army means you can just try to be as "fat" as possible. The crone and the harpy can also charge vehicles or vector strike them Hive Guards might have gotten nerfed but most of old redundant, but calling them outright bad feels very wrong for something with that good a gun.

What do you others think? Did the Hive Guards and Tervigon go from good to bad, or just from mandatory to descent?

**RiTides**

ductvader wrote:
HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)

TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope

HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine

1850/1850

I like that list quite a bit, although if I run something similar I'm thinking to drop a Tervigon and a few of the gaunts from the second unit, and add another Fex and make them all DakkaFexes.

In that case I'll also turn one of the Venomthropes into a Zoanthrope for the extra synapse.

**ductvader**

RiTides wrote:
ductvader wrote:
HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)

TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope

HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine

1850/1850

I like that list quite a bit, although if I run something similar I'm thinking to drop a Tervigon and a few of the gaunts from the second unit, and add another Fex and make them all DakkaFexes.

In that case I'll also turn one of the Venomthropes into a Zoanthrope for the extra synapse.

Going to play with a Firestorm Redoubt instead of the 2nd Flyrant here soon.

**Niiai**

For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?

**ductvader**

Niiai wrote:
For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?

Completely different.

A Dakkafex and Tyranno both play more like an LRC whereas an Exocrine is like a cross between a Predator and a Riptide.

**Jancoran**

jy2 wrote:
So far, the early consensus for the new Tyranids is that they've gotten worse. They've lost a lot of their good "stuff" from the previous codex and a lot of their units have actually gotten worse. Some examples of the "nerfs" done to the new Tyranids include:

No more access to the rulebook psychic powers. That means no more Biomancy or Telepathy.

They lost key units like Ymgarl genestealers, mycetic spores and in particular, the Doom of Ma'lantai.

The Instinctive Behaviour table is now more punishing. Whereas before, if you fail the test, you either did nothing or you charged with Rage, now if you fail your IB test, you can actually Fall Back, be Pinned or even take damage!

Key units have gotten worse or more expensive. Examples include tervigons, who are now more expensive, do not have access to Biomancy, cannot buff termagants with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs anymore, whose explosion will kill gants within 12" instead of the previously 6" and newly spawned gants now cannot move or assault. Gargoyles with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs are now more expensive than before by 25% and mawlocs can actually Mishap if they don't kill the models that they hit when they come up. Trygons have lost the ability to re-roll hits, Zoanthropes now have the Brotherhood of Psyker special rule and Swarmy is no longer the hard-hitting monster that he used to be. This list goes on.

Scything talons no longer give you re-rolls to hit and boneswords no longer ignore all armour saves.

Tyranids have lost much of their mobiltiy that used to make them so dangerous. Gone are the Mycetic Spores. Gone are the Ymgarls. Now you practically have to footslog the new bugs. By losing their mobility, Tyranids have also lost a lot of flexibility.

But enough with the negativity. This article isn't about the forecasted doom and gloom about the new Tyranids. As a competitive player, my natural tendency is look to the strengths of the army and I am actually liking what I see. I think that tyranids do have the building blocks for a good army. How good that army will be remains to be seen, but I feel that new tyranids may surprise some people. So how have the new Tyranids gotten better?

Part I - The Strength of the Tyranids

Overview

Psychic Powers:
Most will see the loss of Biomancy and other rulebook powers as a large detriment. However, the Tyranid psychic powers really aren't that bad. Catalyst is a gem and perhaps the best Tyranid psychic power. The Horror is actually great against non-Fearless units with lower Leaderships (think Riptides and such). Onslaught gives them some extra range. Paroxysm is useful against shooty armies and Psychic Scream can turn any unit into a mini-Doom of Ma'lantai. Finally, Warp Blast is now available not only to Zoanthropes, but to Tyrants and the Swarmlord as well. Tyranid psychic powers are actually quite good and that helps to lessen the sting of losing Biomancy.

Regeneration:
Regeneration on a Tyranid monstrous creature is amazing now. Before, you only regenerate on a roll of a 6. Now, you regenerate 1 Wound each turn on a 4+! Now I don't recommend Regeneration on every TMC (Tyranid Monstrous Creature) in the army, but definitely for key units like a Tervigon or maybe even your flyrants.

Tyranid Melee Weapons:
While tyranids have lost the ability to re-roll hits (or re-roll 1's to hit) with the scything talons, now almost any pair of melee weapons can combine to give them +1 Attack. So that meanst the dual boneswords by the Swarmlord gives him 5 Attacks now compared to 4 before. 2 scything talons, scything talons + rending claws, scything talons + crushing claws or even scything talons + boneswords (or bonesword + lashwhips) will give +1 Attack. Base units that benefit from this (assuming they don't trade in their melee weapons for shooting attacks) include the Swarmlord, hive tyrants, lictors and the Deathleaper. Moreover, most TMC's can take a tail biomorph for an extra attack.

Reduced Costs:
With a few exceptions, the majority of the Tyranid units have gone down in cost. Some of them have even gone down substantially. For example, the Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon is 60-pts cheaper than before. Flyrants with twin-linked devourers and mawlocs are down 30-pts and the base carnifex is down 40-pts! More importantly, Tyranid gribblies such as termagants and hormagants have gone down in points for their base costs. Now, both hoard Tyranids and Nidzilla builds have become more viable.

HQ's

Flyrants:
Wow....these guys are amazing! They are going to be the cornerstone of every competitive Tyranid army and you will see two of them. They are now 30-pts cheaper than before for a winged tyrant with dual twin-linked brainleech devourers. Moreover, they are now Ballistic Skill 4 (compared to BS 3 in the previous edition) and Mastery Level 2 psykers as well!

Old One Eye:
While never a great unit, he has come down by 40-pts in this edition.

Tyrant Guards:
Tyrant Guards are the same as before. The only difference is that they are cheaper by 10-pts each now. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that Lash Whips have been nerfed. Now, they don't lower the Initiative of the opponent. Instead, they only increase the Initiative of the bearer.

Troops

Tervigon:
The tervigon has been nerfed in every which way. They've gone up in price, they no longer have access to Biomancy, they can no longer buff nearby termagants with their biomorphs, a dead tervigon kills gants in a 12" radius (instead of 6") and they now require you to purchase 30 termagants in order to make them a troop choice. Of all the units in the new codex, tervigons are probably the units that were hit the hardest with the nerf bat. However, despite all of that, they are still a necessity in a Tyranid army, both as a durable beacon of synapse and as a troop generator as well. You won't see players spam tervigons anymore like they used to. However, you will still see most competitive lists run at least 1 tervigon, maybe even 2.

By the ways, tervigons have improved in 2 areas. The first is that regeneration does make them now more survivable. The 2nd is that they are now Initiative 2 and a little more survivable to Jaws of the World Wolf.

Termagants:
They are now cheaper. A unit of 30 termagants costs 30-pts less than before. They are also more customizable with their guns. However, the drawback is that they no longer benefit from the Adrenal Gland and Toxin Sac upgrades of a tervigon. Instead, they have to pay for those biomorphs, which are now double the costs of the previous edition. In any case, they will be the building block for troops in a competitive Tyranid list.

Hormagants:
Same with the termagants. The base price of each hormagant has gone down. However, the cost of their biomorphs have gone up. Slightly cheaper if you run them naked or with Adrenal Glands, but once you throw in Toxin Sacs, the cost becomes the same as the previous edition.

Elites

Venomthrope:
The Venomthrope is a gem in this edition. It's cost has gone done by 10-pts. However, its major improvement is that now it has and gives all friendly Tyranids within range Shroud. So deploy your MC's near it behind terrain and instead of a 5+ cover as was in the previous edition, now you are looking at 3+ cover, with 2+ cover behind ruins. He is going to be a must-buy for any and all Tyranid Nidzilla builds.

Lictor:
Still not a great unit, but they are cheaper by 15-pts each. In addition, now they get +1 Attack due to scything talons and rending claws and it's got Fear and Infiltrate.

Zoanthrope:
The Zoanthrope has become both better and worse in this edition. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule is definitely a minus as now, a single successful Deny the Witch can stop all of their shooting. However, on the plus side, a mindstrike missile will only cause 1W to the Zoans even if it hits multiple models within the unit. But the real improvement here is that they are now 10-pts cheaper and are Level 2 psykers. I see competitive players running units of 1 zoanthropes as cheap beacons of synapse and unit-buffers/force-multipliers.

Fast Attacks

Gargoyles:
They actually got nerfed in the new edition. The base cost remained the same. However, their biomorphs have now doubled in price. Despite the price increase, they are still a viable unit and I still see many Tyranid players running them. Lots of them. Flyrants and gargoyles still make a good combo.

Tyranid Shrikes:
Still not a great unit, but it is worth pointing out that they are now 5-pts cheaper per, and their biomorphs - Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs - are cheaper as well. So a unit of 5 Shrikes with scything talons, rending claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are now 40-pts cheaper than before and in addition, they get +1 Attack for having rending claws and scything talons. Maybe worth considering for a mobile source of synapse other than a flyrant.

Harpy:
Still not a great unit, but with a 30-pt discount for a TL-heavy venom cannon Harpy, it is worth considering, especially in a Tyranid Airforce build.

Hive Crone:
This guy shows a lot of promise. 4 36" haywire shots (twin--linked against other flyers) and S8 vector-strikes? Hell yeah! He needs some playtesting, but on paper, he looks like a winner.

Heavy Supports:

Carnifex:
Ladies and gentlemen....we have a winner! Carnifexes will herald the return of Nidzilla, potentially one of the most competitive builds in the codex. They are 40-pts cheaper per carnifex! That means you can potentially see competitive Tyranid players run 9 of them barebones in a list! Give them 2 TL-brainleech devourers and you've got a pretty effective shooter. Finally, you can give them some tail biomorphs for some more close combat killiness. Overall, you can expect tyranids builds to shift more towards carnifex-builds rather than the tervigon-spam of yesterday's bugs.

Biovore:
Are you kidding me? The unit that I have loved ever since 4th Ed. tyranids have just gotten better. No, they've actually gotten much better. How so? They are now 5-pts cheaper per and....get this....they now have +1 Wound, +1 Initiative and +1 Attack!!! But it gets even better. The spore mines that they launch are now much deadlier as well. Now if the blast misses, instead of placing 1 spore mine under the blast marker, you place D3 mines instead! Thus, a unit of 3 biovores can potentially create 9 spore mines!!! Unlike before, where the spore mines moved randomly, now you can actually control where they move. And now for the cherry on top, they don't just explode at S4. Rather, they explode at S4 +1 for each additional mine in the cluster. Thus, they can potentially explode at S10!!! Wow!

Every competitive list should contain at least 1 unit of biovores, and I wouldn't be surprised to see people running 3x3 of them at all.

Mawloc:
Like the zoanthrope, this is another unit that has gotten both better and worse at the same time. Probably the most attractive feature of the mawloc is its price tag...they're now 30-pts cheaper! However, where they got hit hard is in their primary attack, the Terror from the Deep. Now when they come out on top of a unit, if they don't wipe out the models in contact with them, then they actually Mishap! WTF?!? On the bright side, their Terror attack can potentially hit twice at AP2 and ignores cover. Moreover, when they get misplaced from the mishap, they can always use their Burrow rule to go back into reserves to try again next turn. Overall, I actually like this unit.

Tyrannofex:
While this guy was never really a competitive unit, his 60-pt price drop for the Rupture Cannon version makes him a very attractive buy. Give him regen and he becomes the most durable ground unit in the Tyranid codex. Definitely worth considering. Back in 5th, I ran the T-fex along with 2x3 biovores to some great success. I think I will have to revisit that build.

Exocrine:
Another intriguing new character, he gives the Tyranids their main source of AP 2 shooting. He's not even the greatest unit in the Heavy Support slots, but I can see players running 2-3 of these guns as mobile gun platforms. With a venomthrope and the Regen biomorphs, they can be very durable shooters.

Part II - Competitive Tyranid Builds

Coming up sometime in the near future will be Part II of my Tyranid article. In Part II, I will look into potential Tyranid competitive, tournament builds. Stay tuned....

Good insite. The doom and gloom has been a little depressing.

When I looked at the codex, the Mawloc and Hive Crone definitely caught my attention, as did the Biovores. The Heavy Support slot is SO crouded that the various builds will likely be marked by which heavies they use, which is interesting.

The Genestealers, which you didn't mention are one unit that has my personal attention. I am a big beleiver that attacking Morale is the strongest play in 40K and so Broodlord Pinning as well as barrage pinning makes me very excited to see what those builds will look like. There is a LOT of potential in the Psychic attacks of the Tyranids, for sure.

**Deshkar**

I have used both exocrines and mawlocs, and say I like the Exocrines a little more.

Mawlocs for me, either perform incredibly well or fail spectacularly.

On the other hand, the Exocrines are very flexible and reliable in dishing out 24" of AP2 threat. I normally run 2x flyrants and 2 dakkafexes/3biovores, so poor ap+high volume of fire is usually already well handled by the other monsters.

Between mawlocs/tyrano/dakka/biovores; you kinda have to balance what the rest of your army is bringing, your local meta, and overall game plan/style.

**Niiai**

Mhm, this new codex is blowing my mind. When I started playing nids in 5th edition I tryed 4 squads of genetsealers but they all died every time. Now the broodlord might be better.

And we have gotten a lot more shooting.

*puts on the thinking hemlmet*

**RiTides**

ductvader wrote:
RiTides wrote:
ductvader wrote:
HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)

TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope

HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine

1850/1850

I like that list quite a bit, although if I run something similar I'm thinking to drop a Tervigon and a few of the gaunts from the second unit, and add another Fex and make them all DakkaFexes.

In that case I'll also turn one of the Venomthropes into a Zoanthrope for the extra synapse.

Going to play with a Firestorm Redoubt instead of the 2nd Flyrant here soon.

Oh yeah, I meant to say I'd add another Fex AND a Bastion

with the leftover points from cutting a Tervigon and some gaunts (which would be plenty to pay for it).

**Niiai**

On a quick note: What are people experience with taking singel model units of zoantropes, venomtropes or biovores? All of these are less good for each other model in the brood.

**Razerous**

Okay so one of my first proper games (full 7 turns against a fairly deadly general & list);

5 Scythes (2 of which are doom scythes) Barge lord + MSS; Destroyer Lord + MSS; 5 Wraiths, 15 warriors, Night-fight cryptek (1500pts)

I very nearly tabled him by the end of turn two (the Lord evaded a pair of carnifexes in CC by having his chariot exploded on the HoW hits). It ended up going to turn 7, 4-7 win for Nids!

Summary;

-Dakka Flyrants are awesome, BS4 means so many hits; vector strike to instead engage multiple units, additional impact with maledictions (Paroxysm is my MVP!).

-Dakkafexes - so many shots. 6ed is a shooting person's game and they bring it in spades. Then, they charge into CC and wreck face, especially as a pair.

-Exocrines... with so many other bigger threats/target on the field (dual flyrants, dual fexes, synapse, Tervigon), they can be ignored. 6 Shots is awesome, I used that every time (occasionally Blast will be better) + it allows you to reasonably engage Flyers; as compared to a single snap-fire warp lance or the Trygon's containment spines etc.

-Gants: Use them to capture objectives and win the positional game. Deny charges, ward off movement, bubble-wrap units, contest 3 objectives. A nid player will have the units to do heavy lifting.

-Biovores; Umm
1) Spore Mine Clusters are Hilarious. Top points for amusement factor.
2) The damage/threat range is great and is lacking elsewhere in any Nid army.
3) SMC's are un-threatening or timid... but they will force an opponent to make more decisions, thus more mistakes. Ignoring them may result in a free Str4+ hit in CC!

-Tyranid Psyker Powers. Whilst not having powers like Iron Army for T9 (wounded on 6's?), dropping a Scythe to BS1 or a warrior squad by -1BS is so brilliant! Psychic Scream those GK's @ LD7. Twice I used catalyst to make range, grabbing a few extra inches an opponent thought he was safe from (And again, yes he can then react to this in the future but it means more decisions thus more mistakes).

**JGrand**

For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?

After giving it a try, I don't like the Exocrine at all. 24" range is a bit limited in the current game; however, the worst issue it faces is wild inaccuracy. The reliable and desirable shooting in 40k right now is twin-linked and/or ignores cover. I had a game the other night in which the Exocrine's big blast hit 7 Grey Hunters. While it didn't scatter, once cover was factored in, I killed a whopping two models. The six shot mode is similarly underwhelming--especially compared to the volumes of twin-linked strength six and seven of contemporary competitive lists.

All in all, I think the Exocrine is fool's gold. It is only a matter of time before players realize this.

**Razerous**

JGrand wrote:
For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?

After giving it a try, I don't like the Exocrine at all. 24" range is a bit limited in the current game; however, the worst issue it faces is wild inaccuracy. The reliable and desirable shooting in 40k right now is twin-linked and/or ignores cover. I had a game the other night in which the Exocrine's big blast hit 7 Grey Hunters. While it didn't scatter, once cover was factored in, I killed a whopping two models. The six shot mode is similarly underwhelming--especially compared to the volumes of twin-linked strength six and seven of contemporary competitive lists.

All in all, I think the Exocrine is fool's gold. It is only a matter of time before players realize this.

I disagree entirely. It seems to me players are getting spoilt by super-elite units that have those extreme levels of accuracy/reliability which simply doesn't exist across an entire codex, in any codex. Its good shooting nids don't have elsewhere and @ BS4 6 shots seems fairly reasonable to me! How much are those mech vet plasma squads?

**ductvader**

Razerous wrote:
JGrand wrote:
For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?

After giving it a try, I don't like the Exocrine at all. 24" range is a bit limited in the current game; however, the worst issue it faces is wild inaccuracy. The reliable and desirable shooting in 40k right now is twin-linked and/or ignores cover. I had a game the other night in which the Exocrine's big blast hit 7 Grey Hunters. While it didn't scatter, once cover was factored in, I killed a whopping two models. The six shot mode is similarly underwhelming--especially compared to the volumes of twin-linked strength six and seven of contemporary competitive lists.

All in all, I think the Exocrine is fool's gold. It is only a matter of time before players realize this.
I disagree entirely. It seems to me players are getting spoilt by super-elite units that have those extreme levels of accuracy/reliability which simply doesn't exist across an entire codex, in any codex. Its good shooting nids don't have elsewhere and @ BS4 6 shots seems fairly reasonable to me! How much are those mech vet plasma squads?

...and it's an effective 30" range. More with onslaught.

**Niiai**

This rather depends on what you are shooting at? If you want to kill a rhino you would not a hive guard do better? The Exorite is AP2. Have somebody math hammered 3 hive guard vs an exorite one a move and on a standing stil?

**Razerous**

Niiai wrote:
This rather depends on what you are shooting at? If you want to kill a rhino you would not a hive guard do better? The Exorite is AP2. Have somebody math hammered 3 hive guard vs an exorite one a move and on a standing stil?

But virtually every other decent shooting option in the nid codex can handle a rhino. However the AP2 the Exocrine provides is unique.

Also, this is speaking from a balanced approach.

**badula**

Could you tell me the exact setup of a dakkafex?

is it just 2x twinlinked brainleech or there is more in the recipe?

**rigeld2**

Nope, that's it.
150 points of awesome.

**Noctem**

For a cc fex (2 scytals) would both AG and TC be best or just AG?

**Razerous**

If you really wanted to punish yourself (and spend 33-66% of the cost of the 2xTL-Devs), getting adrenal is a must for fleet alone, CC wise. Then add biomorphs to taste.

**Noctem**

Well, I don't really consider it too much punishment since I very much enjoy playing close combat Tyranids, and I think dakkafexes are pure ugliness... even if they are the best choice vs cc fexes =P

I do try to play well and optimize what I DO like playing, but I for some reason I really hate the look of dakkafexes and also love melee!

**Commander_Farsight**

Noctem wrote:
Well, I don't really consider it too much punishment since I very much enjoy playing close combat Tyranids, and I think dakkafexes are pure ugliness... even if they are the best choice vs cc fexes =P

I do try to play well and optimize what I DO like playing, but I for some reason I really hate the look of dakkafexes and also love melee!

Its good to play what you like, especially when you find a build and army you like. I was able to do this with my Tau army. If you want to see it in action, check out my Battle Report on it, under the threads I have started.

**Naw**

What I like most about the xenos: Their Codex can completely change between versions. As a BA player I am quite jealous. I don't have any exceptions as I know the codex will be mediocre.

It sounds like Tyranids are quite formidable in shooting, I really do like them!

**lord_blackfang**

Razerous wrote:

I very nearly tabled him by the end of turn two (the Lord evaded a pair of carnifexes in CC by having his chariot exploded on the HoW hits).

I always detested people saying "your experience is invalid because you opponent sucks" but... if I'm reading this correctly he let a Fast Skimmer be caught by Carnifexes by turn 2?

**tetrisphreak**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Razerous wrote:

I very nearly tabled him by the end of turn two (the Lord evaded a pair of carnifexes in CC by having his chariot exploded on the HoW hits).

I always detested people saying "your experience is invalid because you opponent sucks" but... if I'm reading this correctly he let a Fast Skimmer be caught by Carnifexes by turn 2?

Given that it was probably a barge lord with MSS and a Warscythe, I could see how it would have moved towards the tyranid army, hoping to kill a hive tyrant or other somesuch, while not realizing the still lethal brutality of a brood of carnifexen.

Just supposing though, i wasn't there.

**gorgon**

stormoffires wrote:
Anyone try the pack of 30 termagants outflank with a Prime thats bonesword/lashwhip? I did a 30gaunt flank, 10 with dev. my word that was brutal, and a massive tarpit, then had a tervigon troop in the backfield with only the gaunts it spawns anywhere near it.

It's not near the top of my list of things to test, but one thing I'd like to try for gaks and giggles is a Prime stuck in a big unit of Genestealers with a Broodlord, either infiltrating or outflanking. Yeah, it's problematic for a host of reasons. But figure two T5 characters in the mix, with some SitW, etc. added to the Horror...might be fun.

ductvader wrote:
Created a fairly powerful list.

It can obviously be toyed with and doesn't fit the internet's love for spam...but it's been proving to be pretty mean thus far.

HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)

TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope

HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine

1850/1850

It's funny...the lists I'm trying first aren't identical to yours, but they've evolved in the same general direction. So is it groupthink at work, or does it show that GW intended players to build these types of lists?

**ductvader**

gorgon wrote:
It's funny...the lists I'm trying first aren't identical to yours, but they've evolved in the same general direction. So is it groupthink at work, or does it show that GW intended players to build these types of lists?

GW intended to sell every Tyranid kit except the Pyrovore with this book.

Termagants are cheaper and you now need 30 to run a Tervigon, so more fit in a list, on top of that, termagants can take a bunch of free options...which, if taken, mean you need more fleshborer gants for spawning purposes.
My list above require an average of 92 termagants...112 if I include 10 Spike Rifles in each unit as I plan on doing.

So many MCs are cheaper, except the Tervigon who most people already own 2 of and lets face it is now perfectly costed for what he does...and so you can fit more MCs into list.

For the first time since I can remember, the ELITE section is balanced.

The Exocrine was meant to be sold for effectiveness and the Haruspex for coolness...luckily they just happened to be one kit.

The whole book is viable...even a lictor/stealer army can be done for those that are just in love with that aesthetic.

The book was well written, the ways that rules are actually laid out overall reminds me very much of the Eldar book which has very few conflicts as well.

The Pyrovore...we all want to buy them so bad...It's a cool model...and GW doesn't want to sell them? This is the only point I don't get.