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2014/01/28 11:11:40
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/01/28 11:20:52
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
MasterOfGaunts wrote: I have a flyrant and he shouldnt be slowed down by his buddies. If you put a prime into the guard he would benefit of the higher average toughness.
Exactly - I was wondering if anyone has tried this yet, although at about 475 pts for a Flyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard and a Prime it might not be worth it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceRaven wrote: But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
There's more than just Tyrants in the HQ section
Just curious about the possibilities
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 11:31:34
So I don't normally run buildings, looking over the rules in the rule book & SHA does the Imperial Bastion have a external access point to the Battlements? or do you deploy via the building (needing 2 turns) or does the bit in SHA mean you can move up it like a ruin anyway? Think I've confused myself.
I don't have the IB model, currently working on Nidastion but I can't see any external points to deploy strait onto it.
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic
2014/01/28 12:43:05
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
PrinceRaven wrote: But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
There's more than just Tyrants in the HQ section
Just curious about the possibilities
True, and there are reasons why you would take a Prime over a Tyrant, I'm just wondering what reasons are to take Prime + Tyrant Guard over Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard. What does it bring to the table that a Hive Tyrant can't?
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/01/28 13:32:42
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
I think you use what the list demands in terms of HQs. A Tervigon in the HQ slot is not bad but it cannot join a squad of termagants. I think this is what is being missed here. Primes in squads of termagants is your most durable source of synapse. And if you believe that IB is not a big issue you need to play more games. The Norn Crown is admittedly an expensive upgrade. But those those 6"can at times be crucial. Again, it depends on the rest of the list. We are having a similar discussion on warp shadow. Why use a Crone as AA - it is fragile, a flyrant has a little better mathematical chance to take out flyers at AV10 - 12, it is difficult to get in a position to vector strike, etc. So yes, it has all those faults. But it is still one of our very best sources of AA - especially if you are not going to be tied into using Flyrants in every list and considering that the FA slot is generally not extensively exploited ( it could be with skyslashers, spore clusters, etc., but tends to be ignored).
The issue is that we are being told on the web that we need to shoehorn our builds with particular units to be successful despite the fact that you read batreps and these builds are not winning consistently at all. Time for the ostrich to pull his out of the ground and see what is coming at him. I'm not anti-flyrant. But there are are other good HQ builds. Why is no one exploring Trygon Primes in their builds either. A Prime with a miasma cannon is terrifying when it drops and rarely mishaps. Just don't isolate it entirely. Why are Biovores used and a 30 point Spore Cluster (str9) ignored entirely in builds? I see Jy2 uses a bastion as do a few others. There are good fortifications for Nids. But they are also being overlooked by many players. Someone uses a vengeance battery and gets hammered for suggesting it - personally thinking of trying out a firestorm redoubt in my builds.
There is no winning Nid build yet that we can agree on so it behooves us to explore as many options as possible to at lest try and develop builds that are competitive in a tac environment no? I don't want to play games where the outcome is prety much assured by turn three barring amazing end rolls by the Nid player.
2014/01/28 13:45:26
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
felixcat wrote: Why is no one exploring Trygon Primes in their builds either. A Prime with a miasma cannon is terrifying when it drops and rarely mishaps. Just don't isolate it entirely.
I can see multiple Trygon Primes working well with the new vanguard formations - not only will they land accurately and blanket the enemy deployment zone in SitW, but they immediately provide synapse to cancel GtG on Lictors/Stealers. Throw in a handful of Shrikes and Gargoyles and it could make an effective mostly-reserve list... assuming your opponent has no servo skulls
2014/01/28 14:19:53
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
felixcat wrote: Why is no one exploring Trygon Primes in their builds either. A Prime with a miasma cannon is terrifying when it drops and rarely mishaps. Just don't isolate it entirely.
I can see multiple Trygon Primes working well with the new vanguard formations - not only will they land accurately and blanket the enemy deployment zone in SitW, but they immediately provide synapse to cancel GtG on Lictors/Stealers. Throw in a handful of Shrikes and Gargoyles and it could make an effective mostly-reserve list... assuming your opponent has no servo skulls
I personally like 2 primes and a normal trygon...I just need to get them, I never bought into them because the meta never really let up on them...longfangs, grey knights, dark angels...I finally feel like the investment is worth it personally.
People can rip me apart but I'm working on a list that contains:
Swarmlord + Guard
Tyranid Prime
Tervigon (Crushing Claws)
Hormagants
Termagants
Haruspex
Venomthrope
2 Tyrannofexen
2 Dakkafexen (with adrenal)
Aegis Defense line
Weaknesses:
Anti-air, yes. Dakkafexen are nothing to scoff at though, in this regard. More importantly, the horde that will be generated can restrict flyer movement.
Grav guns, Yes. That's what the 2+ cover save is for.
Not incredibly mobile
Strengths:
38 T6 wounds!!!
Durable synapse
2+ cover saves (unless Tau)
Come on Catalyst!
Board control is MINE!!!
Hormagaunts will probably be ignored and so they can work to tarpit a unit or two
2014/01/28 14:41:25
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
What do you guys think about running a Walking tyrant+Guard(all with adrenals) in place of Carnifexes for enemy pressure? Other slot still being the typical flyrant, and crones so he isn't alone in the sky.
For example, if you used all your heavy support slots for Exocrines etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 14:41:49
2014/01/28 14:44:16
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Bulldogging wrote: What do you guys think about running a Walking tyrant+Guard(all with adrenals) in place of Carnifexes for enemy pressure? Other slot still being the typical flyrant, and crones so he isn't alone in the sky.
For example, if you used all your heavy support slots for Exocrines etc.
Generally, I'm trying it out a lot...I've been seeing that you either run Swarmy, or a Stranglethorn hive commander that sits back to buff other creatures...especially if your meta can down a flyrant like nothing.
But I think flanking with Swarmy and handing out buffs and psychic powers to a bunch of exocrines is a great strategy.
Idea is to push forward with everything, using the venomthropes + gargoyles to help with cover while using the Tyrant, Broodlord and 2 harpies to try to pin units down and help limit damage on the first turn. The termagaunts will outflank and try to get an annoying shooting attack on a backfield infantry unit.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
1. Try to fit in 1 more dakka flyrant if you can.
2. Why 2 units of warriors? They don't do anything for the list but to hold the backfield. Personally, I would swap out both units of warriors for a tervigon. No matter how nerfed he may have been, he is still superior IMO because of psychic powers and the ability to generate more troops.
3. If you don't run a tervigon, I'd recommend breaking up your unit of 30-gants into 3x10 gants.
4. Why 6 genestealers? Just go 5 stealers + broodlord.
5. You don't have much in the way of ranged AT. Give at least 1 of your harpies TL-HVC.
6. If you need the extra points (i.e. say, for the 2nd flyrant), you can drop the regen's on your TMC's. More big bugs > big bugs with regen.
jy2,
While I defer to you as a more experienced player, I disagree mildly with some of your advice.
1) In my opinion you shouldn't ever run warriors (90 pts) without paying for a heavy weapon (10 pts). They are usually going to be out of range of devourers, but at least a Barbed Strangler gives them something to do while sitting on an objective, or hiding behind the rest of your army.
2) The Broodlord is both expensive and only situationally useful, because many units can't be pinned. Genesteelers are not an effective combat unit, they are an objective holder that can outflank with a leadership 10 (so lack of synapse is less problematic), so keeping them as cheap as possible is the way to go. Spending any more than 70 pts on them feels like a waste.
3) Harpies are made for the HVC. Stranglethorn Cannon is for Carnifexes. If you can hit where you want with a small blast it is going to do nearly as much damage as a large blast. The large blast is preferable mainly to mitigate inaccurate fire.
4) Mawloc is more useful and cheaper than Trygon.
5) I've never seen Tyrannofex make back its points. My opponents recognize that he is tough to kill so they target squishier things first, and his damage output is low compared to other heavy support options (Carnifexes, Biovores)
6) I feel like taking advantage of synergy is huge.
A) Bastion + Venom = More shrouded range that is AV14
B) Bastion + Flyrant = Alpha strike survival
C) Comms Relay + Mawloc = reliable Mawloc
D) Comms Relay + Harpy = useful FMC in reserves.
E) Comms Relay + Genestealers = Genestealers arriving later thus more survivable.
So instead of your suggestion, I would look for something more like this.
25 Gargoyles (150)
1 Harpy w/ HVC (140)
1 Harpy w/ HVC (140)
3 Biovore (120)
1 Mawloc (140)
1 Exocrine (170)
1 Bastion + Comms Relay (95)
Maybe I've changed the original list too much to honor the original poster.
Keep in mind that I am just trying to improve his list, using as much of the original units in his list as possible. I am not trying to overhaul his army. Also, there may be an issue with the models that he owns so I always go with a minimal amount of changes to a person's list to make it stay as close to his original as possible.
1. Cool. No worries. Just drop 2 gargoyles to pick up the barbed strangler if that is what you prefer. Just beware that the minute he pokes his head out to shoot, the opponent can shoot him back.
2. I was suggesting a reworking of his list. Personally, I don't run Broodlords myself, but if the list-owner wants to include one in his list, I try to adjust the list to his specs.
3. The HVC can be added in to the harpies with no problem. Since the list-owner left it out originally, I thought he perhaps wanted to run them stock. 1+1 configuration is a nice compromise between the 2. Personally for me, I'd probably run 2 HVC's myself.
4. Like I said, wanted to let him run units that he probably wants to run. I agree that the Mawloc is arguably better than the trygon in this edition, but I left the trygon in there because it's not really that bad.
5. T-fexes, biovores, carnifexes, exocrines, mawlocs....all can be good depending on the situation. Any of them can be viable. I mainly left him there to stay as close to the list-owner's original list in case it is with models he currently has.
Your suggested list is fine as well. As a matter of fact, it is probably more synergistic. When I get a list, I tend to try to stay as close to the original as possible in the case that they are the actual models that the person has to work with. If you give me a Ford to work with, I'm going to try my best to make your Ford run faster instead of telling you to go out and buy a Porshce instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 16:04:33
jy2 wrote: Your suggested list is fine as well. As a matter of fact, it is probably more synergistic. When I get a list, I tend to try to stay as close to the original as possible in the case that they are the actual models that the person has to work with. If you give me a Ford to work with, I'm going to try my best to make your Ford run faster instead of telling you to go out and buy a Porshce instead.
This...is why I like you, Flingitnow, and Jeffersonian above almost all others for realistic advice.
I've had a chance to play some games against Orks and Tau (seperately, not allied) and have started to form a few ideas for myself re the new dex:
1. If you have enough synapse coverage, IB doesn't really become an issue - most of the games I have seen just don't use enough because there are a lot of other attractive toys they want to try;
2. If you're running dual Flyrants - try to run 2 broods of zoeys and a tervy as well. Those Flyrants become a lot more survivable (and by extension the rest of your army) if they have catalyst on them
3. Don't spread out - this makes overlapping synapse bubbles easier, and helps concentrate your strength
4. Pinning weaponry and Horror are great against Tau - if you're having problems with Tau, this is a nice place to go to get some help (Doesn't work as well if your opponent has an Ethereal though)
5. Venomthropes are good, but not essential. It's amazing how often you don't end up getting anything out of them (armour is the same or better, or shooting is ignoring cover)
Unit wise:
Flyrants - fantastic with catalyst, use carefully without
Biovores - Fantastic against Tau, take out firewarriors/pathfinders behind Aegis lines with ease!
Warriors - Good backfield synapse support, give them a strangler for another pinning weapon
Tervigon - Great Troop for holding objectives, and giving you more reliable synapse
Exocrine - A bit situational, but will suit some lists
Trygon Primes - Great additional reliable synapse if you are lacking, but a bit pricey if you already have synapse covered
Gargoyles - Brilliant - I will always take 20+ of these guys, too good to pass up and worth it against any army.
I'm obviously still trying out lots of different things - Harpy is on the agenda next (I like the idea of adding a third flyer, and one with lots of pinning/pie plate goodness!) Also tempted to try the Prime in a unit of 30 gants.
Will let you know how I go...
Until then - I am now convinced Tyranids can be competitive (even against Taudar), I think we're just taking longer then normal to work through all the kinks...
"The Broodlord is both expensive and only situationally useful, because many units can't be pinned...
People are finally starting to realize the Prime might actually be a good choice. A Broodlord is in many ways an economic version of the Prime plus he scores. I can't remember how many games my Broodlords won for me holding an objective and my opponents could not finish them off without fear of Tyranid retaliation. They are gamers winners and well worth their points. Give them toxin sacs and they are good to go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 16:52:45
MasterOfGaunts wrote: I have a flyrant and he shouldnt be slowed down by his buddies. If you put a prime into the guard he would benefit of the higher average toughness.
Exactly - I was wondering if anyone has tried this yet, although at about 475 pts for a Flyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard and a Prime it might not be worth it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceRaven wrote: But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
There's more than just Tyrants in the HQ section
Just curious about the possibilities
I do and it is surprisingly durable as both very tough and ends up with a lower priority level than say the flyrant in the face or the fex brood crashing the lines. Though normally with just 2 guard, but still very good for keeping your Warlord alive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 16:58:11
2014/01/28 17:58:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
The more I see other people's lists, the more I'm tempted to run a 9-carnifex list for my next batrep. Since we're sharing ideas, and Lechine - I like the looks of that list - does anyone have thoughts they'd like to share on what they would run in a 9-fex list at 1850 points? I have my ideas of course, usually involving large blasts, but I'd like to hear what you all have to say on this. Cheers!
I've come to the frustrating conclusion that I will never be able to use the new dataslate, genestealers, or mawlocs and have any fun at all. There are just too many grey knight players/allies in my area and they all take as much warpquake and servo skulls as they can ><
Revamping the list with the advice I've gotten so far. Looks like big bugs may be the way to go; for me at least.
2014/01/28 18:39:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Nice to see someone dislike Tyranid troops as much as me. Have you tested this yet?
Not the exact list but very similar in the troop department.
I've brought more than this and I consistently find gaunts/gants to be wasted troops. Most games I'm content with holding a single objectives and denying the rest. If I get the Scouring I've got a lot of fast attack, if I get Big guns I have a lot of Heavy, if I get Purge then I dont care about
wasting points on troops.
I'm bringing the gants as shields for the Venomthropes to use and if they fail to take them down then a unit of gants is no laughing matter, plus they can almost keep up with the Gargoyles.
Also, my wife and I just had the sad talk of putting my Swarmlord down and turning him into a second flyrant. So may end up with:
Flyrant w/HVC and Devourers
Flyrant w/HVC and Devourers
Commander_Farsight wrote: I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
Wait! The rules got 40k approved, but with different stats!?
2014/01/28 23:33:03
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Commander_Farsight wrote: I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
Wait! The rules got 40k approved, but with different stats!?
He's still experimental, but he was adjusted, and might be again before he's no longer experimental.
Commander_Farsight wrote: I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
Wait! The rules got 40k approved, but with different stats!?
He's still experimental, but he was adjusted, and might be again before he's no longer experimental.
What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
“No one expects the Imperial Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise, fear and surprise; two chief weapons, fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the God Emperor of Mankind! Um, I'll come in again...”
=][= Silent Guards =][=
2014/01/29 00:54:09
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Gatekeeper wrote: What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
Deathleaper...old one eye...primes...anything but the Tervigon can be a cc beast when kitted right...and he's not the worst cc unit out there...though finding him as an hq might be difficult,
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
~1660
