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Both books are actually reasonably well written if you ignore their terrible external balance.

 ductvader wrote:

Naw wrote:
Or wait for Tau/Eldar 7th edition where they have fixed everything idiotic?

I don't really believe that there's anything wrong with these books...it's more the fact that other books that have come out/are coming out haven't kept up to their power levels.

So your position is that high levels of Power creep is good for 40K? Because I think balance is good for 40k. And not the sort of balance that comes with Rock-paper-scissors where tau beat tyranids, tyranids beat Eldar, Eldar beat tau.

You think they should fix the power creep by continuing it, which is in theory ok, but in actuality what you have is continuous imbalance, because each new codex is power creeping the old ones, and the really old ones become less and less powerful. An alternate approach if you did feel that 40k needed power creep would be to power creep everybody at once to maintain the balance.

I subscribe to the theory that if every book is over the top overpowered, then no book is.

This may however, lead to 40k eventually being exalted in space with armies.

The problem being that until every book has been updated the older books just keep getting worse.

tag8833 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Naw wrote:
Or wait for Tau/Eldar 7th edition where they have fixed everything idiotic?

I don't really believe that there's anything wrong with these books...it's more the fact that other books that have come out/are coming out haven't kept up to their power levels.

So your position is that high levels of Power creep is good for 40K? Because I think balance is good for 40k. And not the sort of balance that comes with Rock-paper-scissors where tau beat tyranids, tyranids beat Eldar, Eldar beat tau.

You think they should fix the power creep by continuing it, which is in theory ok, but in actuality what you have is continuous imbalance, because each new codex is power creeping the old ones, and the really old ones become less and less powerful. An alternate approach if you did feel that 40k needed power creep would be to power creep everybody at once to maintain the balance.

In the end...Games Workshop is a business.

Power Creep is good for business. If I'm going to wishlist, I'm looking for it to be as realistic as possible.

 ductvader wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Naw wrote:
Or wait for Tau/Eldar 7th edition where they have fixed everything idiotic?

I don't really believe that there's anything wrong with these books...it's more the fact that other books that have come out/are coming out haven't kept up to their power levels.

So your position is that high levels of Power creep is good for 40K? Because I think balance is good for 40k. And not the sort of balance that comes with Rock-paper-scissors where tau beat tyranids, tyranids beat Eldar, Eldar beat tau.

You think they should fix the power creep by continuing it, which is in theory ok, but in actuality what you have is continuous imbalance, because each new codex is power creeping the old ones, and the really old ones become less and less powerful. An alternate approach if you did feel that 40k needed power creep would be to power creep everybody at once to maintain the balance.

In the end...Games Workshop is a business.

Power Creep is good for business. If I'm going to wishlist, I'm looking for it to be as realistic as possible.

Balanced power creep is better for business than unbalanced power creep. If you release a new Shrike kit at the same time as you release the new Riptide, then you can give shrikes a power creep equivalent to the Riptide and suddenly you've sold not just a lot of new Riptides, but also a pile of new Shrikes. If you release a new Warbuggy with the new Wave Serpent kit, and give Warbuggies a similar firepower upgrade to wave serpents, then you have sold a lot of new kits for both armies. Meanwhile you Tyranid and Ork players are happier and more engaged instead of only the Eldar and Tau.

Who knows what the hell GW marketing+rules developers are thinking? You would think that if they made great rules to go with awesome kits, they'd sell a ton. Yet, they always seem to shoot themselves in the foot. It's like the right (games design) and left (marketing) hands of the company are completely separate entities working independently of each other.

Bah...power creep happens. That's what you get when you get different people working on codices, each with a different vision of how the armies should play and without regarding external balance on the whole.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

On a more relevant note, I finished my test-games with the Skyblight formation. Will be posting the results in a couple of days.

 Kain wrote:


Mawloc: Inexplicably nerfed to no-longer push aside units as he emerges, making hilarious mishaps much more likely. *Sigh* He at least ignores cover now, finally reconciling the nonsensical nature of hiding in some bushes protection you from something eating your entire squad jaws style from below. This is now replaced with the equally nonsensical image of a single surviving grot quite possibly killing the thing as it emerges.

This doesn't seem like a fair assessment. It hits twice now, and instead of it popping up and staying there regardless, it now has a pretty decent chance of simply going back into on-going reserves and coming back again in short order.

It's also a fair bit cheaper...

Xyptc wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Mawloc: Inexplicably nerfed to no-longer push aside units as he emerges, making hilarious mishaps much more likely. *Sigh* He at least ignores cover now, finally reconciling the nonsensical nature of hiding in some bushes protection you from something eating your entire squad jaws style from below. This is now replaced with the equally nonsensical image of a single surviving grot quite possibly killing the thing as it emerges.

This doesn't seem like a fair assessment. It hits twice now, and instead of it popping up and staying there regardless, it now has a pretty decent chance of simply going back into on-going reserves and coming back again in short order.

It's also a fair bit cheaper...

The complaint is mostly about replacing one nonsensical artifact of the rules with an equally nonsensical artifact of the rules. There's no way to visualize a lone Grot or Tau drone forcing a mishap on a Mawloc.

 Kain wrote:

The complaint is mostly about replacing one nonsensical artifact of the rules with an equally nonsensical artifact of the rules. There's no way to visualize a lone Grot or Tau drone forcing a mishap on a Mawloc.

To be fair, the odds of that are pretty low (1/36 assuming you hit it). Very little in 40k is a dead cert, even Destroyer weapons fail 1/6th of the time.

Plus it's up to you where you point the thing in the first place... there's more chance and use in killing a small bunch of Lootaz than loads of Grotz.

I had an Ork Nob kill a Mawloc once, it passed 8/9 4+ Look Out, Sirs and so was still alive for the Mawloc to mishap on, I rolled a 1.

So what nid tactics are decent for dealing with imperial knights (either a bunch of them or acknowledging that their will be a bunch of other stuff supporting it vs FMCs etc)? Was wondering how experienced nid players plan and dealing with these things (eg will i have to get a crone now?).

I just watched the video on BOLS on dealing with the imperial knight and their suggestions didn't seem promising for nids.

- Crones
- Electroshock Grubs (surprisingly good on over-watch too)
- Hive Guard
- Zoanthropes
- Trygons
- Brainleech Devourers from the back
- Reaper Tyrants in melee (on a wounded Knight)
- Genestealers/Raveners/Lictors (if you have nothing else, lots of Rending attacks will work, but you will likely die yourself too)

Several Crones vector-striking and dropping Haywire missiles are probably the most reliable option in the codex. If you're made of money and Escalation is an option, a Harridan is even better thanks to an S10 vector strike plus heavy S10 firepower.

Beyond these however, your options are:
a) Make a suicidal melee charge.
b) Hope your opponent makes a mistake that Zoanthropes or Hive Guard can take advantage of.

Oh, and Impaler Cannons are the better weapon option for Hive Guard, oddly enough. Higher range, more shots, higher chance to pen, and ignores LoS / cover.

 Ventus wrote:
So what nid tactics are decent for dealing with imperial knights (either a bunch of them or acknowledging that their will be a bunch of other stuff supporting it vs FMCs etc)? Was wondering how experienced nid players plan and dealing with these things (eg will i have to get a crone now?).

I just watched the video on BOLS on dealing with the imperial knight and their suggestions didn't seem promising for nids.

You don't necessarily need to kill the knight titans to deal with them. Tyranids have a lot of tools for dealing with them:

1. FMC's. They really can't do much to Tyranid FMC's.

2. You have lots of units. They have few. Treat them as just another deathstar army. Their weakness is their rather limited resources.

3. Screen them out.

4. Spread out. Force them to commit to one direction or another.

5. Tie them up. Feed them 1 unit at a time. For an army of limited resources, time is against them. The more you are able to stall them, the better your chances for a victory.

6. Stay in terrain. Without assault grenades, the knight titans will be hitting last if they have to go through terrain. That could be bad for them against a cheap TMC.

7. If you still want to go on the offensive, then any of the options mentioned by xttz/xyptc can be viable.


BTW, most of the larger tournaments in the US are going to rule it that you can charge the titans even if you can't hurt them. That's good for bugs.

And at the end of the day, they're just AV13 with a 4++. No one's calling Dark Angel LR's with forcefields meta-breaking. Walker's hit below their points-cost at range; they're only really scary in CQC, but they're also most vulnerable in CQC as well.

Do you play FMC spam?

Yes: You're golden, take out their Skyfire support units with Tyrants and Harpies, Hive Crones weaken the Knights, assault them with FMCs to finish them off.

No: Hope you don't end up playing Purge the Alien/The Relic, hope you end up having more objectives than your opponent, huddle on your objectives, in terrain, and desperately try to survive. Convince your club/group/TO to follow the rules in regards to Knights not being denial units, but to not follow the rules in regards to not charging them if you can't hurt them.

Has anyone heard news on the 3rd dataslate yet? It's been surprisingly quiet compared to the last two

omerakk wrote:
Has anyone heard news on the 3rd dataslate yet? It's been surprisingly quiet compared to the last two

It's supposed to come out at the end of this month....which is actually pretty soon.

omerakk wrote:Has anyone heard news on the 3rd dataslate yet? It's been surprisingly quiet compared to the last two

GW posted that there will be a preview next Tuesday, with preorders from the 29th. Means it's probably out on Apr 5th.

BlaxicanX wrote:And at the end of the day, they're just AV13 with a 4++. No one's calling Dark Angel LR's with forcefields meta-breaking. Walker's hit below their points-cost at range; they're only really scary in CQC, but they're also most vulnerable in CQC as well.

LRs aren't meta-breaking because they're trivial to deal with using MC Smash attacks. You can also immobilise or destroy weapons to reduce effectiveness, and they're much easier to pin down as they move half the speed of Knights.

For Knights melee is not really an option, as any Tyranid unit that can realistically take it down needs to weather at least one (probably more) Destroyer hits. Even is you win, melee is basically suicide against Knights, unlike LRs.

A Hive Tyrant needs 3 turns to kill a 6 HP Knight, a Knight needs 1 turn to kill a Hive Tyrant.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
A Hive Tyrant needs 3 turns to kill a 6 HP Knight, a Knight needs 1 turn to kill a Hive Tyrant.

A knight will not be able to touch any FMC, a Flyrant mayput some preasure on his back but Ive killed them easily with Hive Crones, Vector strike+missiles make a knight go home each turn.

Sandokann wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
A Hive Tyrant needs 3 turns to kill a 6 HP Knight, a Knight needs 1 turn to kill a Hive Tyrant.

A knight will not be able to touch any FMC, a Flyrant mayput some preasure on his back but Ive killed them easily with Hive Crones, Vector strike+missiles make a knight go home each turn.

Woah Woah...he's got two stubbers, kay?

He's got...a chance.

Sandokann wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
A Hive Tyrant needs 3 turns to kill a 6 HP Knight, a Knight needs 1 turn to kill a Hive Tyrant.

A knight will not be able to touch any FMC, a Flyrant mayput some preasure on his back but Ive killed them easily with Hive Crones, Vector strike+missiles make a knight go home each turn.

He was talking about close combat.

And if you're killing a Knight a turn with a Crone you're (very) lucky.

Yeah, I was backing up what xttz said about melee not being all that effective.
I assume Sandokann is running multiple Crones when he says he can take one out each turn with them.

GW digital just posted that preorders for rising leviathan iii go up this weekend - that means march 29th release and we get the heavy-hitter formations! I'm excited to see what develops.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
GW digital just posted that preorders for rising leviathan iii go up this weekend - that means march 29th release and we get the heavy-hitter formations! I'm excited to see what develops.

I'll bet something along the lines of the following:

- Hive Tyrant + Guard formation (with added, survivability; maybe even FNP, extra toughness or armour?)
- Carnifex formation (with boosted... something)
- Tyrannofex formation (with boosted weapons)
- "Consumption" formation, with Rippers, Pyrovores, Haruspexes etc

Those all sound plausible. I'd add in a ravener/Trygon formation that includes a mawloc for subterranean swarms.

Xyptc wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
GW digital just posted that preorders for rising leviathan iii go up this weekend - that means march 29th release and we get the heavy-hitter formations! I'm excited to see what develops.

I'll bet something along the lines of the following:

- Hive Tyrant + Guard formation (with added, survivability; maybe even FNP, extra toughness or armour?)
- Carnifex formation (with boosted... something)
- Tyrannofex formation (with boosted weapons)
- "Consumption" formation, with Rippers, Pyrovores, Haruspexes etc

LoL @ the consumption formation... looks awful... I can totally see them using it and giving it just enough so you can see the level of awesome they were going for as well as the extent of their failure to achieve it.
They already have HTs in a formation and I don't think we'll see them again. The Swarmlord is more of a possibility IMO, perhaps with some Zoanthropes.
I'm sure the Carnifex will be in there somewhere. (please 2+ armor and/or better regeneration)
The top thing on my wish list is that they do something with Trygons but I'm not getting my hopes up. (assault tunnels please!)

I'm hoping for an 'old one eye wrecking crew' where you get a brood of 5 regenerative 2+ carnifexes.

Or a 3-Tyrannofex slate that gets soul blaze! Lol...