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Yeah all of the non-Apoc formations so far have kept unit structure the same, so there's no reason to believe you'll now be able to have Venomthropes inside other units.

I think it's more likely we'll see a variation on the Living Fortress idea, with units from that formation within Synapse range of the Tyrant getting FNP or whatever.

The lictor brood did allow a super brood of 5 lictors. That deviated from the normal component.

 Zande4 wrote:

Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.

Right, but, Venomthropes are super-squishy, with T 4, 2 wounds, and SV 5+ ... the missile sweeps are Str 5 AP 5 and multishot (Assault 4, twin-linked I think?) so can easily reduce your 'thropes to goo, letting the rest of the army, which doesn't ignore cover, blaze away. IF! (And this is a mighty big if) the formation allowed you to stitch a Venomthrope in with a walking Tyrant's Tyrant Guard, then you suddenly have majority toughness of 6 and 3+ armor saves to protect the Venomthrope, which then allows it to keep that 5+ cover save up on everyone else. Sure, a couple of units will ignore it, but *most* won't, and by not letting the poor Venomthrope be picked off so easily, the walking Tyrant becomes far, far more viable.

The whole concept's a longshot based off the suggestion above, but it'd be a game-changer for the slow-walkin' Tyrant. Fast and furious with wings, slow and borderline invulnerable on foot. Which style do you prefer? As opposed to the current choice, which is, let's face it, not really a choice at all.

Longshot, speculative, etc etc, but it fills me with a little nervous hope.

This is why I attach a Prime to my Venomthrope(s). Especially with the new synaptic swarm slate for the foc-free prime.

Get that Venomthrope a Bastion. Venomthropes love Bastions.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Get that Venomthrope a Bastion. Venomthropes love Bastions.

The realization that they still require synapse while inside buildings killed that idea for me.

Attack a Prime to the Venomthrope, hide the unit in a Bastion, if your opponent can't hurt AV 14 you have an unkillable source of Shrouded and Synapse.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Get that Venomthrope a Bastion. Venomthropes love Bastions.

The realization that they still require synapse while inside buildings killed that idea for me.

Hid a Zoanthrope with Dominion behind the Bastion.
Also, how the hell do you fall back when inside a building?

You're forced to disembark.

Why? the BRB doesn't say nothing about forced disembarkation aside of the destruction of the vehicle/building.
There is nothing that says that a unit that is falling back must disembark.

It has to move, you can't move without disembarking, either you disembark or the entire unit is destroyed, your choice.

We had this synapse / disembarking discussion a few pages back. Basically the rules don't cover it - this is a situation that was never meant to happen.

Until a proper FAQ / errata comes the only solution is a house rule or a roll-off.

Either way parking a prime in the bastion seems like a huge tax just to keep a single venomthrope kicking around.

My solution is venom-in-a-box-zoan-behind-the-box.

Though lately, I've been liking the 3-warriors-behind-the-box that I've been running with Skyblight as well (along with my venom-in-a-box).

3 Warriors behind the venom-in-a-box is what I've been running too with my Living Artillery Node list.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Either way parking a prime in the bastion seems like a huge tax just to keep a single venomthrope kicking around.

You're not just providing Synapse for the Venomthrope, you've also got a solid Synapse anchor 12" around the Bastion and a Warlord your opponent will find quite difficult to Slay.

I get all those things sure, but I just personally like more aggressive play styles.

I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game. Not too mention the need to replace a big chunk of your army with FMCs. GW is sucking the enjoyment of nids out of the game for me.

 Ventus wrote:
I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game. Not too mention the need to replace a big chunk of your army with FMCs. GW is sucking the enjoyment of nids out of the game for me.

I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.
As for not everyone having a way to break AV14, My first games were against a necron monolith. Eventually, it's something you have to get ready for, as a bunch of armies have AV14 vehicules.


Probably won't be going Skyblight (i'd need so many more models.) but seems there's still other good armies to make. The crazy dakkafexes list, the endless swarm with a trygon tunnel, living artillery that doesnt cost too much to add to any army, and the deathleaper squad.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
I get all those things sure, but I just personally like more aggressive play styles.

It is useful for all play styles. Even with an aggressive FMC spam it is great to have a shrouded zone near on of the objectives.

Did a solo "training exercise" today at 1500 to try out my harridan. I put it up vs probably the strongest enemy to face it - tau empire.

Lists are pictured:

Tyranids
Dakka flyrant
Harridan
Crone
Crone
3x5 genestealers (scoring units to hide and don't require synapse)

Tau
Commander with drone controller, missiles, 2 marker drones
3x crisis with missiles and target locks, 3 marker drones
3x crisis with fusion blasters and velocity trackers (sky-hunters)
Riptide with ion/stims/SMS
2x broadside with all ze missiles! And 4 missile drones
Sky ray
10 kroot with a hound
16 sniper kroot
11 fire warriors
2 tetras with sensor spines


So very outnumbered but luck fell to the tyranid side - they got 1st turn and the mission was purge the alien. The first thing to happen was the tentaclids from the 2 crones combined put 2 HP of damage on the sky ray - after cover saves. Them the harridan opened up and finished it off, the flyrant precision killed a few drones from the broadside unit.

Tau returned suit by wounding the flyrant and eradicating a crone. Sadly it wasn't enough, as the unmolested genestealers and the remaining flyers had enough punch left over to take out the tau heavy hitters on turn 2. The only models left at the end were a single crone, the harridan, and a riptide that died on turn 6 resulting in a tabling for the tau.

I'm really eager to field this monster vs an actual opponent instead of fish bowling it out.

Once again, the Tyranids reigned supreme upon the blasted wastes of Planet Bowling Ball, hmm?

Harridans are pretty neat. Good that you bested the Tau, a tourney woud be a great test as well.

SBG wrote:
Once again, the Tyranids reigned supreme upon the blasted wastes of Planet Bowling Ball, hmm?

Harridans are pretty neat. Good that you bested the Tau, a tourney woud be a great test as well.

Haha the table when set up was actually very full of LOS blocking terrain.

The caveat here is obviously I cannot make any "fake outs" or unexpected tactics from either army when play testing in this manner. Essentially I just move both armies in fairly straight-forward manners and let the dice decide.

Ventus wrote:I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game.

Addaran wrote:I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.

Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.

In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:


It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.

 xttz wrote:

Ventus wrote:I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game.

Addaran wrote:I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.

Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.

In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:

Spoiler:

they only train guardsmen for melee combat. There's no point in target practice because they literally could not miss when firing at the advancing swarm, but having to fend off creatures in melee was inevitable.

It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.

Warriors of Ultramar is a great book if you like the Nids, not so great if you like the smurfs.

If only Venomthropes had a 4+ sv.

PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.

 ductvader wrote:
If only Venomthropes had a 4+ sv.

PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.

Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.

 Tyran wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If only Venomthropes had a 4+ sv.

PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.

Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.

Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.

I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.

 ductvader wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If only Venomthropes had a 4+ sv.

PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.

Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.

Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.

I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.

? please explain, I don't remember that.

 xttz wrote:

Ventus wrote:I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game.

Addaran wrote:I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.

Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.

In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:

Spoiler:

they only train guardsmen for melee combat. There's no point in target practice because they literally could not miss when firing at the advancing swarm, but having to fend off creatures in melee was inevitable.

It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.

You don't have to build/play with buildings. You can play as fluffy as you like with nids.

Meanwhile, the Eldar are teaming up with their dark kin as if they had never separated, marines and Tau are both allying themselves with a Tau Commander who breaks all of the rules of the games, Daemons are running multiple psykers that will overload you with their psychic abilities and who are nigh unkillable with the Grimoire, and every Imperial army nowadays seem to have a spare Coteaz tucked away in their trunk somewhere.

If you want to run Tyranids the way they were meant to, that's fine. Just don't expect them to be able to compete against the current tournament armies without bringing in combos of their own. That includes Dataslates and things like the bastions, skyshields and fortifications. That's just the sad reality. If you want to play fluffy, you are going to to be playing with a major handicap against other competitive tournament builds. We need to run combos just to be on an even footing against some of the better armies, and even then, sometimes it's a struggle.

 Tyran wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If only Venomthropes had a 4+ sv.

PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.

Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.

Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.

I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.

? please explain, I don't remember that.

In this new book Swarmy loses his wandering about Macragge status and instead they say they find his body in the Wilderness...which makes more sense...like the Ultramarines are just going to leave that to chance. And instead Swarmy became akin to Papa Hive Mind, being able to be uploaded and reincarnated via any hive fleet throughout the galaxy.