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 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.

Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.

I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.

But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.

Isn't Sin of Damnation a stranded space hulk with no pressure/oxygen? That's pretty good background reasoning right there.

 Iechine wrote:
How does everyone feel this list would fair?

1850 Battleforged

Flyrant w/Devourers
Flyrant w/Devourers

Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

10x Termagant
10x Termagant
10x Termagant
10x Termagant

Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers

A metric ton of S6 Twinlinked shots that can hit different targets, Zoanthrope batteries, synapse, and cover generating/scoring Termagants. Should be interesting in a competitive setting. It does give up a TON of Kill points though, but the same token means they cant mass wounds on units.

Downsides are its slow and has no alpha to speak of.

Nothing wrong with your models, your execution tho... Put them in units of 2. This not only let's you do it in a single detachment, it also means every single roll of Onslaught (which is the point of Zoanthropes in this list) allows you to put a Carnifex in range of their DZ probably shooting something turn 1, and if you get Master of Ambush (you should be trying for it every game) you can infiltrate all 6 carnifexes if you go first, giving you a turn 1 alpha of 96 twin-linked S6 shots (!!!) which is pretty insane, on top of leaving you with 6 carnis only 12" away from their army which isn't something anybody wants. If you go second with Master of Ambush I would outflank them and jink the Flyrants just to be sure. Units of 2 isn't all bad for wounds, as it also allows you to eat up to three wounds and switch a different Fex to the front in your turn to abuse wound allocation, plus there isn't going to be a huge amount of units in any game that can by themselves reliably put more than 4 wounds a turn on a Fex unit, and the ones that can are the ones you focus first.

I think your list is a pretty good skeleton on how to go, you can tweak from there. If I had to recommend something else it would be dropping a Carnifex squad for a Mawloc just to cover you on things that can and likely will be giving you a hassle, giving you a way to deal with anything hiding in non-ruin cover, but also a way to deal with any +2 armor that will otherwise eat a LOT of S6 shots. Still does nothing to Centurions in a Ruin, so Exocrine is worth considering as well, especially since he works well with Master of Ambush giving you a BS4 S7 AP2 blast or shooting, the turn he hits the field, pointed at practically anything you want on the map. If you take one or both of these, the other thing I'd consider is Biovores for strong cheap anti infantry - one squad of these is the best way to make up for being down 24 dakkadice with the Fexes you took out, almost everything has something +4 (which already turns those 24 dice to 12) that is going to be extremely points effecient to point these things at - and with their range they can probably do it turn 1, contributing to your alpha strike.

To answer your question though, I think you will fair quite well no matter what you do. Carnifexes are extremely cost effective. Running at least 4 I think is the way to go with the Smash nerf, as well as Crones and Mawlocs being nerfed. No harm in just saturating the field with them (although situations may call for something a bit more specialised)

pinecone77 wrote:
Well, when I got of physical therapy today, I had some time to kill... This is sort of a "concept" list..

"Psycho Swarm" (Running two FOC, Battle Forged)

Winged Dakka'rant, Thorax Hive 240
Winged Dakka'rant/ Winged Assassin, Thorax Hive 240

Troops: Ripper Swarm: x3
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above 39 per...?

Zoey Brood(s) x6 solo Zoeys (16WC+ D6)

something like...936 points?

Formation: Tyrant Node 415
Hive Tyrant,HVC,LW/BS, Thorax Hive...220?
Guard Brood: x3 150
Venothrope Brood: Solo 45

Special effect: +6" Synapse

Thats about 1350 (1351?) (18WC +D6) don't know what to do with it...me? I think I'd Double out 3 of the Broods for durability, and multishot Warp Blast/Lances....that should hit 1500 more or less

I can't believe this got glossed over! Looks like a pretty solid template to me; and plenty of points left over to customize to your own tastes!

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.

Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.

I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.

But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.

I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.

Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.

Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.

omerakk wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Well, when I got of physical therapy today, I had some time to kill... This is sort of a "concept" list..

"Psycho Swarm" (Running two FOC, Battle Forged)

Winged Dakka'rant, Thorax Hive 240
Winged Dakka'rant/ Winged Assassin, Thorax Hive 240

Troops: Ripper Swarm: x3
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above 39 per...?

Zoey Brood(s) x6 solo Zoeys (16WC+ D6)

something like...936 points?

Formation: Tyrant Node 415
Hive Tyrant,HVC,LW/BS, Thorax Hive...220?
Guard Brood: x3 150
Venothrope Brood: Solo 45

Special effect: +6" Synapse

Thats about 1350 (1351?) (18WC +D6) don't know what to do with it...me? I think I'd Double out 3 of the Broods for durability, and multishot Warp Blast/Lances....that should hit 1500 more or less

I can't believe this got glossed over! Looks like a pretty solid template to me; and plenty of points left over to customize to your own tastes!

Cool! Glad you liked it. Due to my health, I can't get any games in, so if you try it out, please post some outcomes.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.

Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.

I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.

But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.

I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.

Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.

Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.

Yeah, I also remember have read something like that, although the fact that Gaunts have been used in more prolonged battles without the option of reinforcementa like in Ghorala or in Shadowbrink makes me believe that Gaunts can develop organs if needed.

As for the vacuum subject, Tyranids flying creatures like Gargoyles, Hive Crones, Harpies and Harridans are completely adapted to spaceflight.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.

Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.

I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.

But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.

I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.

Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.

Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.

Sounds like something else the design team borrowed from nature- some moths and other insects are born(changed in the case of moths) with no mouths. Their only purpose is to breed and die.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.

Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.

I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.

But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.

I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.

Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.

Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.

Sounds like something else the design team borrowed from nature- some moths and other insects are born(changed in the case of moths) with no mouths. Their only purpose is to breed and die.

It makes sense, why waste additional resources on something that is meant to be cheaper that sunlight?

Ok, now that stronghold assault is basically a requirement, how does everyone feel about Ammunition Dumps and Hive Guard? It makes them a bit more accurate, and we really need the anti tank potential, plus ignores cover is very nice.

Basically, with my normal Bastion+Venomthrope, I would add a defense line, Ammo dump and 3 Hive Guard. Behind a defense line with a Venom they have a 2++, and can shoot any nearby vehicles with rerolling 1s. Thoughts?

 jifel wrote:
Ok, now that stronghold assault is basically a requirement, how does everyone feel about Ammunition Dumps and Hive Guard? It makes them a bit more accurate, and we really need the anti tank potential, plus ignores cover is very nice.

Basically, with my normal Bastion+Venomthrope, I would add a defense line, Ammo dump and 3 Hive Guard. Behind a defense line with a Venom they have a 2++, and can shoot any nearby vehicles with rerolling 1s. Thoughts?

Fortifications now have to be placed fully in your deployment zone. Also they aren't as tough as they used to be. Hive Guard are over costed and take up an elite spot that could be better spent on a Venom or Zoey. Consider an Exocrine matched up with an Ammo dump instead. It greatly improves his shooting, and he still has the 24" range, and he can explode vehicles unlike the hive guard. It wouldn't work in my meta where nobody ever moves toward Tyranids, so a Tyranid gunline is unworkable, but if your meta is different, it might work.

Also, the skyshield works very well with Venoms and Exocrines, and has the bonus of giving FMC's a 2+ cover on turn 1.

tag8833 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Ok, now that stronghold assault is basically a requirement, how does everyone feel about Ammunition Dumps and Hive Guard? It makes them a bit more accurate, and we really need the anti tank potential, plus ignores cover is very nice.

Basically, with my normal Bastion+Venomthrope, I would add a defense line, Ammo dump and 3 Hive Guard. Behind a defense line with a Venom they have a 2++, and can shoot any nearby vehicles with rerolling 1s. Thoughts?

Fortifications now have to be placed fully in your deployment zone. Also they aren't as tough as they used to be. Hive Guard are over costed and take up an elite spot that could be better spent on a Venom or Zoey. Consider an Exocrine matched up with an Ammo dump instead. It greatly improves his shooting, and he still has the 24" range, and he can explode vehicles unlike the hive guard. It wouldn't work in my meta where nobody ever moves toward Tyranids, so a Tyranid gunline is unworkable, but if your meta is different, it might work.

Also, the skyshield works very well with Venoms and Exocrines, and has the bonus of giving FMC's a 2+ cover on turn 1.

I painted a spore chimney as a counts-as void shield generator. That thing has been 100% worth it's points in both games I've used it so far. It's a pretty good sized protective bubble that keeps some (sometimes all) heavy weapons off my big bugs turn 1, protects my base of warriors, termagants, and Biovores, and also counts as a scoring unit in my DZ since it is a claimed building. I love it.

I'm trying to wrap my head around Zoans rules in 7ed. They are level two psykers and alweays know warp blast/lance. They have brotherhood so regardless of squad size I alewaysbget onlyb two WC from the squad correct? Now does warpblast/lance replace their free primaris power? Do I get warpbalst/lance plus another power plus dominion? Idf so it would seem that splitting them up into single units makes the most sense, no?

 felixcat wrote:

I'm trying to wrap my head around Zoans rules in 7ed. They are level two psykers and alweays know warp blast/lance. They have brotherhood so regardless of squad size I alewaysbget onlyb two WC from the squad correct? Now does warpblast/lance replace their free primaris power? Do I get warpbalst/lance plus another power plus dominion? Idf so it would seem that splitting them up into single units makes the most sense, no?

yes, no, yes and possibly.

Each unit of Zoans ( no matter the size) gives you 2 WC. They start with warpblast and can make 1 additional roll for a power. Then they get dominion for free since all their powers came from the same tree. This means they will have 3 powers total.

I prefer to run them in units of 1. Units of 2 makes them more survivable though.

Units of 3 multiply each successful Warp Lance or Blast by 3 while still only costing the warp charge to manifest it once.

That being said it's otherwise a hugely unreliable power combined with lack of range and mobility. Just take solo Zoeys.

What did I miss here.

2x 2 Zoans is 4 WC
4x 1 Zoan is 8 WC

So putting in units of two or three really affects your WC output, no? At least I read it that way.

So what I said was correct. They get three powers ... dominion is always granted and warpblast/lance must be taken. So they roll once for an extra power. .

 felixcat wrote:
What did I miss here.

2x 2 Zoans is 4 WC
4x 1 Zoan is 8 WC

So putting in units of two or three really affects your WC output, no? At least I read it that way.

So what I said was correct. They get three powers ... dominion is always granted and warpblast/lance must be taken. So they roll once for an extra power. .

Yes, multiple Zoans in a squad is less efficient and yes you get dominion, blast and a roll.

You didn't miss anything. That is exactly how they work.

The only reason to take multiple zoans in a single unit IMO is if your elites slots are filled up and you want them to be more survivable. Even then I'd only do it because of a lack of models... throw some more gaunts or rippers at them!

Well with combined arms I do not se using them in squads of more than one.

Zimko wrote:
I prefer to run them in units of 1. Units of 2 makes them more survivable though.

Two solo Zoanthropes will always be more survivable than single brood of 2.

 felixcat wrote:

I'm trying to wrap my head around Zoans rules in 7ed. They are level two psykers and alweays know warp blast/lance. They have brotherhood so regardless of squad size I alewaysbget onlyb two WC from the squad correct? Now does warpblast/lance replace their free primaris power? Do I get warpbalst/lance plus another power plus dominion? Idf so it would seem that splitting them up into single units makes the most sense, no?

The way I read it, they are ML 2, they always have Warp Blast/Lance, and roll for one more. Because they only have one disapline, they take Primarchus for "free" it is a real buff. Having Dominion makes Zoeys always have a useful power.

While "solo" Zoeys max out benefits, Putting in two makes the Brood much more durable....I currently don't have an opinion on what is "best"

And, Yeah it's 2 WC per Brotherhood, as I understand it.

pinecone77 wrote:
And, Yeah it's 2 WC per Brotherhood, as I understand it.

Absolutely, look to PAGKs for reference.

SHUPPET wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
How does everyone feel this list would fair?

1850 Battleforged

Flyrant w/Devourers
Flyrant w/Devourers

Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

10x Termagant
10x Termagant
10x Termagant
10x Termagant

Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers

A metric ton of S6 Twinlinked shots that can hit different targets, Zoanthrope batteries, synapse, and cover generating/scoring Termagants. Should be interesting in a competitive setting. It does give up a TON of Kill points though, but the same token means they cant mass wounds on units.

Downsides are its slow and has no alpha to speak of.

Nothing wrong with your models, your execution tho... Put them in units of 2. This not only let's you do it in a single detachment, it also means every single roll of Onslaught (which is the point of Zoanthropes in this list) allows you to put a Carnifex in range of their DZ probably shooting something turn 1, and if you get Master of Ambush (you should be trying for it every game) you can infiltrate all 6 carnifexes if you go first, giving you a turn 1 alpha of 96 twin-linked S6 shots (!!!) which is pretty insane, on top of leaving you with 6 carnis only 12" away from their army which isn't something anybody wants. If you go second with Master of Ambush I would outflank them and jink the Flyrants just to be sure. Units of 2 isn't all bad for wounds, as it also allows you to eat up to three wounds and switch a different Fex to the front in your turn to abuse wound allocation, plus there isn't going to be a huge amount of units in any game that can by themselves reliably put more than 4 wounds a turn on a Fex unit, and the ones that can are the ones you focus first.

I think your list is a pretty good skeleton on how to go, you can tweak from there. If I had to recommend something else it would be dropping a Carnifex squad for a Mawloc just to cover you on things that can and likely will be giving you a hassle, giving you a way to deal with anything hiding in non-ruin cover, but also a way to deal with any +2 armor that will otherwise eat a LOT of S6 shots. Still does nothing to Centurions in a Ruin, so Exocrine is worth considering as well, especially since he works well with Master of Ambush giving you a BS4 S7 AP2 blast or shooting, the turn he hits the field, pointed at practically anything you want on the map. If you take one or both of these, the other thing I'd consider is Biovores for strong cheap anti infantry - one squad of these is the best way to make up for being down 24 dakkadice with the Fexes you took out, almost everything has something +4 (which already turns those 24 dice to 12) that is going to be extremely points effecient to point these things at - and with their range they can probably do it turn 1, contributing to your alpha strike.

To answer your question though, I think you will fair quite well no matter what you do. Carnifexes are extremely cost effective. Running at least 4 I think is the way to go with the Smash nerf, as well as Crones and Mawlocs being nerfed. No harm in just saturating the field with them (although situations may call for something a bit more specialised)

I need to run this list unpaired and paired, to see if I like the flexibility of shooting vs the possible psychic boost. Centurions in a ruin are another great reason to not pair them, as Ive had Carnifexes dropped with wounds to spare by them quite a few times. Dropping 1 fex does open up a lot of army boosts. But 6 is sexier.

Correct on all accounts.

I asked all the questions because I had a list in mind and wanted to be sure I got it right ... see here ...

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p580-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations#bottom

The idea is like a few other lists - spam psychic powers and spam TL devourers ... in combination maybe lethal.

Something that came up in my game last night, we have to take a grounding check if a Flyrant takes a wound from Perils!

If I were to run a squad of 3 Zoanthropes, and managed to get psychic shriek, would it be one psychic test per normal, but result in three shrieks? If so... that could be pretty solid.

It would be 1 Psychic Scream, only Warp Blast is affected by having multiple in a brood.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Something that came up in my game last night, we have to take a grounding check if a Flyrant takes a wound from Perils!

I've been grounded this way twice. Very Annoying.

Also have to take a separate grounding test for psychic shooting, normal shooting, and Vector Strikes, assuming they cause an unsaved wound (FNP doesn't count).

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Zimko wrote:
I prefer to run them in units of 1. Units of 2 makes them more survivable though.

Two solo Zoanthropes will always be more survivable than single brood of 2.

Well, I meant if your FOC is filled up and you don't or can't start up another detachment. If you have available elites slots then yes I agree.

Yes, that's the major disadvantage of solo Zoanthropes, they fill up the Elites slots pretty quickly.