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 ductvader wrote:
Didn't know anyone was running unbound...at all.
Everyone I know considers unbound to be in the same category as the "These rules are guidelines and you can throw any of them out as you wish" note in the book.

Everyone in my gaming group agreed that unbound was not allowed. But now, a few players who feel like they aren't winning their fair share (by which they mean every game they want to win) are now starting to talk unbound. It is setting up a conflict in the near future.

As literally everyone predicted, it is poised to fracture my gaming group, with some players starting to voice the "Its in the rules therefore I can do it" argument. A breakup was inevitable since the new FOC dropped, the only question is how much of the group we can keep together, and how effective we will be at enforcing majority rule. Perhaps we were doomed from the start.

The worst thing about the new FOC is not playing against the super-spammy armies, it is dealing with the negative feelings it creates between gamers.

If you play tournaments and enforce no unbound...no one will want to play unbound because why play something that doesn't help you in the long run...

If you don't play tournaments as a group...unbound can be fun...but also exhausting and annoying...and no one has incentive not to play unbound.

 ductvader wrote:
If you play tournaments and enforce no unbound...no one will want to play unbound because why play something that doesn't help you in the long run...

If you don't play tournaments as a group...unbound can be fun...but also exhausting and annoying...and no one has incentive not to play unbound.

I have not seen a good Unbound list that could not be done with CAD, Allies, and Formations better. The only thing I see unbound really being good for is playing with incomplete armies or very event fluffy lists.

Unbound is gonna be popular in some formats, but I don't know how much so it will be in tourneys. I can see an "Unbound Only!" tourney being pretty interesting, but mixing the two is going to cause a bit of strife. And even though NO ONE ON EARTH believes that GW was being benevolent in adding it to 7th Ed., it does allow for a semblance of balance in narrative campaign settings. I know there are a lot of players who don't even KNOW anyone who KNOWS anyone playing such a thing, but they do happen!

That being said, I agree on the strength of our dataslates. Even though I have griped a bit about 7th ed. and its nerfbat aimed near directly at Tyranids (GRRRRR), I still think our formations keep us competitive (until 3 Land Raiders hit the board...). People have chatted a good bit about Skyblight, and Living Artillery and Endless Swarm have some teeth as well. Other than AR13+ en masse, I still have not had a lot of trouble. I don't win EVERY time, but I feel the list competes well...

...unless I play Tau.

And at least 7th has pretty much said that, at least in GW's eyes, dataslates and formations are the new norm. With three books of 'em to play with, that gives us some room to play!

Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!

Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!

Eldercaveman wrote:
Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!

Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!

...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!

Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!

...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?

Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.

Eldercaveman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!

Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!

...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?

Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.

You can spam 5 for like 200 points and 5 points each to twinlink 1s

So what we're hearing is that everyone has less reliability in flying things soon?

Isn't this good for our book as a whole.

Sure we'll struggle with Guard and Tau...but putting more of everyone on the ground isn't bad for us.

 ductvader wrote:
So what we're hearing is that everyone has less reliability in flying things soon?

Isn't this good for our book as a whole.

Sure we'll struggle with Guard and Tau...but putting more of everyone on the ground isn't bad for us.

When our best units are in the air, bringing everyone to the ground isn't good.

Eldercaveman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!

Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!

...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?

Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.

Looks like a good unit to plop a psychic scream onto

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!

Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!

...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?

Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.

Looks like a good unit to plop a psychic scream onto

Or a Mawloc.

I'm interested see how it works for wounding, if it has a Grot crew, and an Artillery profile will the grots majority toughness take over. Could even have a low AP, which will make it Devourer bait.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I'll definitely take your advice on board.

Few units that got overlooked that I really rate from seeing them in games:

30 X Termagants with Devourers

A few people mentioned mixing firepower up. Why is that? To soak up wounds? I've seen that unit first hand, from the receiving end, decimate a unit of terminators with spare wounds! I understand the cost versus casualties debate, but sure 90 S4 shots is a threat that MUST be dealt with?

Trygon Prime with Miasma Cannon

Anyone tried this? I've seen it pop up amongst Tau lines and obliterate a lot of Fire Warriors and instantly become public enemy number one whilst the rest of the army creeps up!

I may admit defeat on the on foot Hive Tyrant though...

I've largely avoided flyers as the previous addition created a massive boom in flyer-heavy armies (thanks Helldrakes!) and a lot of armies now seem to have overcompensated with lots of anti-air. This makes me think taking no flyers makes some of my opponents army irrelevant if it's tooled for anti air?

Good luck with Trakkta Gun spam against my no flyers army!

A. I don't see everyone in a playgroup suddenly going ork, even as allies. It is expensive in time and money.

B. If the thing that has this gun has Skyfire and no alternative shooting mode then it sucks even worse than usual (Orks bad shooty!) against anything on the ground. This makes it less likely to be taken unless flyers are pretty prevalent in your meta.

C. If 5 of them costs 200pts, then it SHOULD be good against flyers! Outside of Flyrants, that is 200pts to stop 185pt or less (usually) models!

D. How hard is it to kill? Is it a vehicle? If not, how does it feel about Biovores? Or flamers? Or dual TL-Devos + Worms? It is a better option than many lists have for anti-air, sure... but I don't see it as overwhelming. It shoots and one of our FMCs has ISSUES. So long as we can hit back, there is parity.

I dunno, what you said about it doesn't really make me sweat too hard. A quad-gun on an aegis line with a SM shooting it is just about as bad, plus it provides cover for a whole squad and the gun can be manned by the next guy when the shooter bites the bullet. Unless the orks run pretty much nothing but those (and heaven help them if they do!), then they will nail one FMC a round, and probably lose that to return fire. If you put enough pressure on them with what you have, it should still work out.

I also don't sweat pre-release codex rumors, either. Remember, up until the day the book came out, Snap Shots in 7th ed. were going to just be at a minus to the BS.

The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.

 jifel wrote:
The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.

Thanks, jifel... I only really check the rumors page about once a week. Getting all worked up for partial rules is like REALLY wanting a PB&J without knowing if there is any bread around for me.

But still, I agree. I think it will be a bit of a hassle (and therefore a higher target priority for us), but that is no different than any other Skyfire gun out there. It just means that we'll have to kill it first... that is, unless it is in an AR14 vehicle. In that case, we... uh... pray?

I just hope Orks still die to Biovore attacks a good bit. I always liked the idea of Orks being killed by Orkanids. I just wish Biovores didn't make my wallet cry our in fear any time I think about buying some...

Against orks just keep those FMCs gliding instead of swooping, it's not like the orks have a great BS anyways. Then that nasty traktor kannon is hitting you on a 6.

KillerWabbit wrote:

 jifel wrote:
The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.

Thanks, jifel... I only really check the rumors page about once a week. Getting all worked up for partial rules is like REALLY wanting a PB&J without knowing if there is any bread around for me.

But still, I agree. I think it will be a bit of a hassle (and therefore a higher target priority for us), but that is no different than any other Skyfire gun out there. It just means that we'll have to kill it first... that is, unless it is in an AR14 vehicle. In that case, we... uh... pray?

I just hope Orks still die to Biovore attacks a good bit. I always liked the idea of Orks being killed by Orkanids. I just wish Biovores didn't make my wallet cry our in fear any time I think about buying some...

I agree completely, I usually wait before panicking. I'm not too worried though. I mean Hydras kill our crones easily, but they're just not good against most things so they suffer at TAC, and therefore rarely show up!

It's T7 W2. At 30 ppm with two Gretchin it's really cheap T7 wounds (8 of them for the price of a Carnifex) and you can have up to 5 in a squad. I think running a unit of 2 or 3 will probably be a given at 60-90 points, it's definitely a base they need to cover and can easily do now. However, FMCS can play around this by staying in jump mode - yeah it opens them up to anti-MC ground shooting, but thats gotta be used on something anyway. And it denies any points pumped into these things as they will only hit jump FMCS on 6's and can't force a grounding check. Better than taking any assured two or three wounds on a Flyrant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wings on Flyrant are priced at 35 points, and at this stage all you should be running is two of them. All these Traktor guns do for us is deny Swooping mobility, but still allow Jump mode. It's balanced. However, If you are playing skyblight and your opponent has a gang of these, I feel sorry for you.

Actually, no I don't. Flyer spam is called cheese for a reason - it gives you cheesy victories if your opponent is unprepared for your tactic. If you put all the cards on them not takin anti-air (as is mostly the case), then you earned your loss when you find the guy who does.

 jifel wrote:
The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.

Yeah, I'm thinking it will be an exelent place to toss left over points into.

pinecone77 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.

Yeah, I'm thinking it will be an exelent place to toss left over points into.

I would expect most Ork armies to have 1 battery of these unless the other Heavies are awesome. One anti flyer unit I can deal with.

ictoabu wrote:
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I'll definitely take your advice on board.

Few units that got overlooked that I really rate from seeing them in games:

30 X Termagants with Devourers

A few people mentioned mixing firepower up. Why is that? To soak up wounds? I've seen that unit first hand, from the receiving end, decimate a unit of terminators with spare wounds! I understand the cost versus casualties debate, but sure 90 S4 shots is a threat that MUST be dealt with?

It is a lot of firepower indeed. In fact it is perhaps too much firepower too concentrated. It is too easy to tarpit, and unwieldy to move. Also, any wounds done to it reduce its damage output. Contrast that to 2 mixed units. You have the same amount of firepower that is harder to deal with. Causing wounds doesn't substantially reduce its damage output unless you do a lot. You can't tarpit it, because there are two units. You can't avoid it as easily, because 2 units are less unwieldy.

ictoabu wrote:
Trygon Prime with Miasma Cannon

Anyone tried this? I've seen it pop up amongst Tau lines and obliterate a lot of Fire Warriors and instantly become public enemy number one whilst the rest of the army creeps up!

I've tried it. It is ok. You have to give up 1 close combat attack. That used to be a big thing giving up 1 smash attack. Now that we have lost Smash, it isn't the worst thing. But, because of the nerfs to Smash the Trygon Prime himself lost a lot. It was overcosted to begin with, and now it is very overcosted. Compare a Trygon Prime to a Dakka Fex. 240 to 150 points. It is really hard to justify 90 extra points for a MC that can't deal with vehicles as well.

Miasma Cannon isn't my favorite wargear for a Trygon Prime because it is fairly expenses, and he doesn't tend to live long enough to earn its points back. Certain matchups like Guard Blob or Orks might be ok against, but generally it is better on paper than in reality.

Ok, I apologize for the long delay between my last post and this one, but a few developments came about. Anyhow, I just became the largest Tyranid player in town after buying the other largest 'Nid player's army to help him out.

So, I just picked up;

8 Tyranid Battleforces (Several Warriors have been converted to shrikes)
10 Carnifexes
3 Hive Tyrants (2 Flyrants, 1 Walkrant)
2 Trygons
2 Tyrannofexes
4 Tervigons
1 Zoanthrope
1 Harpy
1 T-Fex/Terv kit.

So, with that in mind, a few more questions then. This puts me with several more options for list building and the like. So, with these new add ons, What is going to be my best option for adding some structure to my play style? And on a side note, will Tervigons do decently in melee?

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Ok, I apologize for the long delay between my last post and this one, but a few developments came about. Anyhow, I just became the largest Tyranid player in town after buying the other largest 'Nid player's army to help him out.

So, I just picked up;

8 Tyranid Battleforces (Several Warriors have been converted to shrikes)
10 Carnifexes
3 Hive Tyrants (2 Flyrants, 1 Walkrant)
2 Trygons
2 Tyrannofexes
4 Tervigons
1 Zoanthrope
1 Harpy
1 T-Fex/Terv kit.

So, with that in mind, a few more questions then. This puts me with several more options for list building and the like. So, with these new add ons, What is going to be my best option for adding some structure to my play style? And on a side note, will Tervigons do decently in melee?

Wha... wha... what? Why... How...

Sweet Norn queen that's a lot of bugs! I demand pictures! (demand = at some point, it'd look pretty cool. Just whenever.) Seriously, how on Terra would you ever need so many bugs? If you like Apocalypse, it sounds like you have enough to run most of the formations, which is just freaking insane.

 jifel wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Ok, I apologize for the long delay between my last post and this one, but a few developments came about. Anyhow, I just became the largest Tyranid player in town after buying the other largest 'Nid player's army to help him out.

So, I just picked up;

8 Tyranid Battleforces (Several Warriors have been converted to shrikes)
10 Carnifexes
3 Hive Tyrants (2 Flyrants, 1 Walkrant)
2 Trygons
2 Tyrannofexes
4 Tervigons
1 Zoanthrope
1 Harpy
1 T-Fex/Terv kit.

So, with that in mind, a few more questions then. This puts me with several more options for list building and the like. So, with these new add ons, What is going to be my best option for adding some structure to my play style? And on a side note, will Tervigons do decently in melee?

Wha... wha... what? Why... How...

Sweet Norn queen that's a lot of bugs! I demand pictures! (demand = at some point, it'd look pretty cool. Just whenever.) Seriously, how on Terra would you ever need so many bugs? If you like Apocalypse, it sounds like you have enough to run most of the formations, which is just freaking insane.

You can never have too many bugs.

I have easily over 10000 points in tyranid models.

I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.

 jifel wrote:
I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.

It's a product of having more "hobby" cash than common sense. Don't feel bad - any given game 80-90% of my stuff sits on the shelf. But... I can pretty much field any list I want and have it be wysiwyg (which is super important to me).

I'm picking up a Mawloc this weekend... I already have 1 plus 2 trygons and a trygon prime. lol

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.

It's a product of having more "hobby" cash than common sense. Don't feel bad - any given game 80-90% of my stuff sits on the shelf. But... I can pretty much field any list I want and have it be wysiwyg (which is super important to me).

I'm picking up a Mawloc this weekend... I already have 1 plus 2 trygons and a trygon prime. lol

I aspire to have that many points... I'm sure you're popular in Apocalypse games!

Not really. I'm always the bad guys!

Actually, he was selling it for almost nothing. Besides, I already look at my army as something that I planned to grow to Apocalypse levels. That being said, the Dark Angels player who I brought into the game, and has become one of my prime irritants with the amount of plasma he likes to bring against my Carnifexes, keeps trying to come up with flimsy fluff reasons so he can "ally" with my army for Apocalypse matches. I keep telling him the only allies I accept are ketchup, mustard, and the occasional monofilament nail file.
All I need now is a decent graphic artist to draw up a Hive Tyrant's face with a cocky grin with the caption "Got Templates?" underneath for use on a t-shirt.

So, looking at these new developments, what do you guys think about fishing for catalyst for those Tyrannofexes? The way I see it, I will probably keep them stock. Stinger Salvo isn't what I would like, but it seems like it will work well for a decent secondary. On the Trygons, should I run them stock, or grab regeneration for a little extra endurance? Or perhaps just cheat and run them as Mawlocs? On the Tervigons, should I keep them stock or give in to my nature to make round numbers and toss them Cluster Spines?