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*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

Exocrine is different. Mean for killing heavy infantry and light vehicles.

I like 1...2 exocrine max.

Ignoring jink though is a biggy.

 ductvader wrote:
Exocrine is different. Mean for killing heavy infantry and light vehicles.

I like 1...2 exocrine max.

Ignoring jink though is a biggy.

Agreed. Though, If I want an exocrine I always try to include the Living Artillery Node for twin-linked goodness.

Frozocrone wrote:


Nice, I hadn't realised you can fit in that many models at 500!! How well did the Zoanthropes perform with their Psychic Powers?

General question for all, are Harpy's worth taking if you take some Biovores? Are Hive Crones worth taking by themselves (I am running Two Flyrants and two units of Gargoyles, but can condense them to find room for another Crone).

Dominion was needed and the main reason I took them. At 500 points they make great synapse anchors with OOE acting as weak back up. Catalyst did well, the one Warp blast was effective killing 2 warriors (Will Be Back not with standing), the one Warp Lance was as normal useless. Horror had it's check passed. I got more powers used with just the 2 Zoanthrope than in more psycher heavy lists, averaging 4 a turn. I suspect this may be intended, 2 psychers get a lot of juice with 3-4 master levels and a d6, were as 4 or 5 even with ML2 are starting to get dice starved.

The Crone good make good AA cover for the tyrants doing ground attacks.

 ductvader wrote:
I tend to only take them when I am building for TAC with Swarmy.

I've seen that preferred enemy on them gives their odds much more favor...not to mention Onslaught.

Yep, I had Swarmy in that list. But I was giving out furious charge to Gargoyles and Gants because I was facing so many vehicles. Didn't roll Onslaught, which was a bummer.

Also preferred enemy isn't great because it just rerolls 1's to hit. Because rolling to glance a vehicle is not the same as rolling to wound. It is a minor boost, but a boost none-the-less.

 Iechine wrote:
*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

Goodbye Leviathan Rose.....

Is it just me or is it actually better for Biovores to miss with their spore mine launcher? I dunno if I'm reading it right, but it seems like if you score a "hit!" the unit hit only suffers a single strength 4 AP4 large blast, whereas if you scatter a little ways off you get the multiple spore mines, which can create a much stronger large blast explosion in the ensuing assault phase.

Nah, its better to hit and wipe off some firepower a turn earlier. Plus the mines are the easiest things in the game to kite. It is however a decent 2nd place prize if you will, good for mitigating wasted shots, the spores still have to be avoided and if you can force something with a heavy weapon to move, or your opponent to deal with it, it helps a wasted shot not be so much of a waste. It's better than nothing, but generally better to hit the desired target.

However, it might depend on the target, because sometimes the stronger blast might give better chance at wounding. Most times though, its best to hit. Not like you really have a choice however lol.

Speaking of which,

I can't find any rule that says the mines can't assault the turn they're created. They're not deep-striking or coming out of reserves in any way, so the rules for that wouldn't apply in this situation.

Is there any reason to assume that mines created by the launcher can't assault the turn they're made?

They still need to get through overwatch.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Speaking of which,

I can't find any rule that says the mines can't assault the turn they're created. They're not deep-striking or coming out of reserves in any way, so the rules for that wouldn't apply in this situation.

Is there any reason to assume that mines created by the launcher can't assault the turn they're made?

They can assault. However, they only do so at half charge distance (i.e. charge D6" instead of 2D6").





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
They still need to get through overwatch.

That's not always a bad thing. Sometimes, better for the spores to eat Overwatch so that your carnifexes (or whatever) can assault safely.

That's how I've been playing it, yeah.

Overwatch is a thing, though in my experience it hasn't been a major problem. They're still hitting on 6's, etc, and since most people take Biovores in squads, they can only overwatch one of the spore-units, not considering vehicles and melee units.

I'm considering dumping the living artillery formation. It's a good formation, but with the points saved from the warriors and the exocrine, I can fit a second dakka Flyrant into my 1500 point list. Pinning and re-rolls to scatter are cool, but I'm not sure if my Biovores being more accurate is worth that second Flyrant.

That might be a wise cut then Blaxican. The second Flyrant is probably more important than the Exocrine+Warriors and Re-Rolls. However, I'd have to ask what else you have in your list. I'd probably try keep 2 Dakkafex, Flyrant, and Living Artillery as a base line and cutting the other stuff.

The list is

Dakka Flyrant
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
3xZoanthropes
4xTyranid Warriors (1xVenom Cannon)
3xBiovores
Exocrine
2xDakka Carnifex

1500

A concern I have about dumping the formation is synapse. I'm not sure if the three Zoan's alone are enough to do the job, even with a gaunt-wall and venomthropes for support.

Well, hypothetically you would replace that Synapse with an even tankier Synapse in the form of the Flyrant.

On top of that,That being said, forcing your Flyrant to hang back some gangs may cost you where you need early aggression and Flyrant pays alot for that mobility.

Honestly, I'd drop 120 points of Termagants and 2 Zoanthropes. Bam, new Flyrant. Same amount of army Synapse as before + the Flyrants bubble too.

Multiple Zoanthropes in a squad are generally a bad investment, the only spell it matters for is Warp Blast/Lance, a notoriously unreliable investment.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Well, hypothetically you would replace that Synapse with an even tankier Synapse in the form of the Flyrant.

On top of that,That being said, forcing your Flyrant to hang back some gangs may cost you where you need early aggression and Flyrant pays alot for that mobility.

Honestly, I'd drop 120 points of Termagants and 2 Zoanthropes. Bam, new Flyrant. Same amount of army Synapse as before + the Flyrants bubble too.

Multiple Zoanthropes in a squad are generally a bad investment, the only spell it matters for is Warp Blast/Lance, a notoriously unreliable investment.

I agree with this advice 100%. I would also add that the 4th warrior doesn't really improve the list, so you could redistribute those points to keep some of your Termagants.

Its a good list at 1500 either in its original form or with the 2nd flyrant. The downside of the 2nd flyrant is that you will become a hard counter to many lists, and have the potential to frustrate opponents. Nobody is ever frustrated playing against 80 Gants because at the end of the game, even if you win 10 points to 0, he will have killed 60-70 Gants, and feel good about that.

Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

Well I'm currently running one but I'm debating whether to replace it and field a Mawloc with Adrenal Glands as it took up the last 155 points in my list after all my Elites HQ and HS were filled up (can shift my HS to make room for a Mawloc).

The biggest nerf was Vector Strike, I completely agree with you there. It does have it's uses, it helps the Tyrants against Air units so they can choose to focus on ground units.

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

Nope, I think that's pretty accurate. I said this the day 7th dropped and a bunch of people argued against it... just like what happened when I said the same thing about the Tervigon when our 6th ed codex dropped... people don't like letting go of old models, but the fact is, the Crone is a pretty big waste of points now. Not quite Tervigon tier, you need at least 2 and you can probably secure an early kill on some Heavy armour, while your Flyrants and Dakkafexes deal with light tranports. They are pretty much the next best unit when you're out of heavy support and HQ slots to be honest.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's how I've been playing it, yeah.

Overwatch is a thing, though in my experience it hasn't been a major problem. They're still hitting on 6's, etc, and since most people take Biovores in squads, they can only overwatch one of the spore-units, not considering vehicles and melee units.

I'm considering dumping the living artillery formation. It's a good formation, but with the points saved from the warriors and the exocrine, I can fit a second dakka Flyrant into my 1500 point list. Pinning and re-rolls to scatter are cool, but I'm not sure if my Biovores being more accurate is worth that second Flyrant.

You don't have to reroll if you scatter off though.

Just saying.

 Iechine wrote:
*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

BS nerf and a point increase on top - because, why?
I hope Centurions get that treatment in their next codex.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

BS nerf and a point increase on top - because, why?
I hope Centurions get that treatment in their next codex.

Me too!

Even the assault a Centurions - just so they know how it feels to have a gak unit further nerfed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The list is

Dakka Flyrant
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
3xZoanthropes
4xTyranid Warriors (1xVenom Cannon)
3xBiovores
Exocrine
2xDakka Carnifex

1500

A concern I have about dumping the formation is synapse. I'm not sure if the three Zoan's alone are enough to do the job, even with a gaunt-wall and venomthropes for support.

I concur with the previous advice, the 2nd flyrant is important, but I would rather lose
1 venom
1-3 zoans
X gaunts
1 warrior
(combine until you get 230-240 pts)

and keep the LAN


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

So, using your own logic....
Harpy will hit lets say 75% of the time, so glance/Pen .62 each turn. Meaning it will take 5 turns to kill that rhino... Why would you take a Harpy?? (besides as Skyblight tax)


You take a Crone for 2 reasons.
1) One of the best AA units in the game, between haywire missiles and D3 S8 Vstrikes....(No Jink!)
2) S6 AP4 flamer is made of win against xenos armies, and not bad against power armor grouped up. (Do you also hate TFexes?)

If you are taking Crones because of ground armor, you are doing it wrong

You take them to help your flyrants deal with other flyers, and to take out IG behind and ADL, or Lootas in cover, or pathfinders in ruins, or plaguebearers hiding on an objective, etc etc.

In 6E I would always take 2, and considered taking 3; now I will almost always take 1, but almost never take 2+. They are very good at what they do, but what they do is kind of niche; so often times there are not enough good targets for 2 of them.

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th. [...] Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

The popularity of the Crone basically comes down to their being a bit more TAC than the Harpy. The Crone's weapon load-out covers a wide range of target types (importantly including ones that devourer-equipped MCs struggle against) while the Harpy is more specialized for fighting infantry and lighter vehicles (same preferred targets as devourers, though the HVC can potentially do something to higher AV if no better targets are available).

 SHUPPET wrote:

[...] people don't like letting go of old models, but the fact is, the Crone is a pretty big waste of points now.

I respectfully disagree, at least in a general sense. Crones are still one of the cheaper flyers in the game (especially as a dedicated AA flyer - see Nephilim Jetfighter or Crimson Hunter as examples) and are the second cheapest flying monstrous creature in the game after the Harpy. They do have some unit match-ups where they are now less than ideal (light mech being #1), but they will never be completely useless due to their diverse weapon load-out.

coredump wrote:
So, using your own logic....
Harpy will hit lets say 75% of the time, so glance/Pen .62 each turn. Meaning it will take 5 turns to kill that rhino... Why would you take a Harpy?? (besides as Skyblight tax)


You take a Crone for 2 reasons.
1) One of the best AA units in the game, between haywire missiles and D3 S8 Vstrikes....(No Jink!)
2) S6 AP4 flamer is made of win against xenos armies, and not bad against power armor grouped up. (Do you also hate TFexes?)

If you are taking Crones because of ground armor, you are doing it wrong

You take them to help your flyrants deal with other flyers, and to take out IG behind and ADL, or Lootas in cover, or pathfinders in ruins, or plaguebearers hiding on an objective, etc etc.

In 6E I would always take 2, and considered taking 3; now I will almost always take 1, but almost never take 2+. They are very good at what they do, but what they do is kind of niche; so often times there are not enough good targets for 2 of them.

Don't have the BRB handy but I thought the reason why we all say the Crone got nerfed hard was because vector strike dropped to only 1 attack rather than the D3.

A single crone dedicated to AA can be okay-ish because its shots become twin-linked and vector strike becomes D3. Anymore than one is a waste of points in my opinion. In my most competitive lists I don't bring any.

I think the crone and the harpy's best role is to saturate the field with FMCs in a Skyblight list. But I don't think it's useful to just take 1 or 2.

 Chaplain Sam wrote:
A single crone dedicated to AA can be okay-ish because its shots become twin-linked and vector strike becomes D3. Anymore than one is a waste of points in my opinion. In my most competitive lists I don't bring any.

I think the crone and the harpy's best role is to saturate the field with FMCs in a Skyblight list. But I don't think it's useful to just take 1 or 2.

I run 2 alongside 2 flyrants in many of my lists. It takes 2 to have a reasonable chance of killing a Land Raider (with support from a flyrant). Since 40% of all lists I face include at least one Land Raider, It is good to have Crones around to kill it. Otherwise they work about like a Tyrannofex. More mobility, less staying power, but they contribute to my Alpha strike in a way that Tyrannofexes don't. 2 Flyrants + 2 Crones, and I can easily kill a stalker or Hydra for 1st blood, making the skies safe for my FMCs.

I also see a ton of Rhinos and other dedicated transports. A Crone can strip one Hull point with Vector strike, and then use the flamer at a different target. They can do almost as much damage as a Dakkfex to a Wave serpent, and often convince the wave serpents to target them rather than my flyrants. The flamer is quite useful for hitting an infantry squad and a vehicle or two vehicles.

Tyrpak wrote:
What are your thoughts of Exocrine instead of 3 Hive Guards?

BS4 standing, 6x S7 Ap2? Against AV12 I think it's better than the Hive Guard.

The ability to explode light vehicles works wonders. My Exocrine has been a very reliable transport destroyer this year. It's also extremely flexible in what it can shoot, having the strength and AP to damage light to medium vehicles (and explode them), is devastating to enemy Monstrous Creatures, has the weight of fire to score the odd shot on a troublesome flier and of course decimates MEQ/TEQ. I am seriously tempted to replace the Biovores and Warriors in my LAN with a second Exocrine, maybe even a third. With Malanthrope support I think they would make an excellent anvil against which Skyblight can slam opponents.

Something like this?

Tyrant, wings, 2x Devourers, Egrubs (240)
Malanthrope (85)
Malanthrope (85)
10x Termagants (40)
10x Termagants (40)
10x Termagants (40)
Exocrine (170)
Exocrine (170)
Exocrine (170)

Skyblight
Tyrant, wings, 2x Devourers, Egrubs (240)
Crone (155)
Harpy, Venom Cannon (140)
Harpy, Venom Cannon (140)
10 Gargoyles (60)
10 Gargoyles (60)
10 Gargoyles (60)

This totals 1845, gives you ObjSec Gargoyles, decent psychic punch, great anti MEQ/TEQ, great mobility and a resilient walking plasma battery.

tag8833 wrote:
I run 2 alongside 2 flyrants in many of my lists. It takes 2 to have a reasonable chance of killing a Land Raider (with support from a flyrant). Since 40% of all lists I face include at least one Land Raider, It is good to have Crones around to kill it. Otherwise they work about like a Tyrannofex. More mobility, less staying power, but they contribute to my Alpha strike in a way that Tyrannofexes don't. 2 Flyrants + 2 Crones, and I can easily kill a stalker or Hydra for 1st blood, making the skies safe for my FMCs.

I also see a ton of Rhinos and other dedicated transports. A Crone can strip one Hull point with Vector strike, and then use the flamer at a different target. They can do almost as much damage as a Dakkfex to a Wave serpent, and often convince the wave serpents to target them rather than my flyrants. The flamer is quite useful for hitting an infantry squad and a vehicle or two vehicles.

I know LRs can be a pain for Nidz, but I don't think a Crone is the best tool to use against them. Those haywire missiles are way to unreliable against ground targets to be the deciding factor in choosing to take them. Their best role is AA and being mobile. I think anymore than one (unless your taking a Skyblight list) is inefficient. In my experience Crones just don't contribute enough to be worth taking them. Smart opponents just ignore them.

But what works for you in your meta may be different, keep doing your thing

After thinking about it overnight, I've decided to dump the 2nd flyrant, because it's a good point that double flyrants might just be a little too competitive. I'm already on thin-ice with my gaming group because of my Purple Rain list, which has been undefeated for a couple of months now and has been the target of more than a few passive-aggressive mutterings about OP invisibility. Part of why I'm jumping in with 'nids again is to give people a break- so I think I'll leave the second Flyrant at home for now.

What I've done instead is removed two of the three zoanthropes, one warrior and a handful of gaunts and put in a third dakka-fex.

I'd originally considered just putting in a walking dakka-tyrant, but without wings I don't see how that would be worth the extra 45 points it'd cost to take it over a dakka-fex.

The loss of the two zoan's scares me a little, but I figure that the super-majority of vehicles I can't kill with the Flyrant's rear-armor shots or the dakka-fex's guns will be the kind of units that need to get close in order to do anything, meaning my fex's will make short work of 'em.