Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/25 14:54:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Tyran wrote: IMHO, if someone is fielding a Knight (or more) against you, then he should let you field a Harridan (or any other LoW) against him.
You don't need a Harridan to deal with knights. As a matter of fact, running a gargantuan may be counter-productive against them. Running MSU tyranids work better. For the price of a harridan, I'd rather go with triple-flyrants against the knights and then fill out the rest of the army with solid support units.
Hulksmash wrote: Ignore the knights. Tear down the riptides and obsec troop units. A lot depends on your list and the mission. Normally I'd say play the mission too. Once the tides and obsec are gone then he has to split up to grab objectives and such. When that happens you can shred 1 knight a turn.
For example I run a Nid/Daemon list. But if I was running pure Nids I'd be inclined to go with skyblight and normal nids. I'd been considering running 3 Flyrants, 3 Crones, and 3 Harpies once you take the Skyblight. That should just shred knights since your crone's St8 vector is a random facing. Also good use of Onslaught helps kill knights too.
If you can find 25pts I recommend a venomthrope. But those last 15pts are hard to come by.
Be more concerned with the Riptide/Knight list that brings Riptides w/Velocity Tracker. That's a tougher one.
Listen to Hulksmash. He's a tournament-veteran and Tyranid player who knows what he is talking about. I will expound more on this later in my tactica.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think in any situation is it a good idea to focus Riptides. They are the tankiest models in the game from a point to durability ratio.
Unless you are running harridans and there are no flyers in the sky. Wounds on 2+ and ignores the Wraithknight's Armour. Has a 3+ and FNP of it's own. Literally, we just bring our own pacific rim. Two of them would be 24 shots (to 4 different targets). You want to see wraithknights hide in cover all game? It'll only cost you 1470 points. Or you could just bring one for 735. It literally won't die. I don't believe there's a single more durable thing in the entire game (except when An'ggrath decides to fly, and I mean really, why would he?) I think a cool and thematic list would be Skyblight plus a Harridan; you could even make it battle-forged. Skyblight will cost you....805 at minimum IIRC. After the Harridan, you'll have 310 points left. 2 Ripper Squads (or two Gant Squads) leaves you with 232 points (or 230 if you go the Gant route). This seems really attractive until you realize that my definition of "minimum" means that you don't get a template or the guns on the first hive tyrant, which is pretty worthless. Oh the math, we came so close. At 2k this is perfectly viable however. Gives you the 50 points necessary to kit out the flyrants, plus giving the rippers deep strike and grabbing a malanthrope for good measure (because obviously). All that is literally one minimum FOC, a LOW and a formation. Technically three sources if people care about those kinds of things, but that list is not about to go stomp a tournament any time soon.
That being said, I wonder if a Harridan list might? A hyper-durable gun platform that will explode armour and wraithknights before they know what hit them. Sure, it's not AP 2 but with that many STR 10 shots who cares? AP 3 is good enough.
Maybe something like:
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Well you could take a template or two off of the flyrants to give some deep strike to the rippers since the harridan will be dismantling heavy armor left and right. It's even easier if you just have one FOC. I don't know if the tournaments typically have a LOW and allies both count towards the "two source limit" meaning you couldn't take both, but let's assume that they do (so no third flyrant)
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
You've got 500 points left to spend to taste. My personal taste? Malan-in-a-box for 160, mawloc for 140 and 2 Dakkafex for 300.
I looked at the BAO LOW list and the Harridan was curiously excluded (though the Hierophant was not-so-curiously excluded). Even without the transport capacity/other upgrades, it's still pretty nuts. As far as the Harridan, though, yeah it's tough to kill, but it's 735 points. That's a lot of points!
That is a decent basis for a flyer list. You can't go wrong with 4 flyrants. However, there is a problem with that build in tournament play. First off all, most major tournament do not allow dual-CAD's. Instead, they tend to allow self-allying (at least the major ones in the US). Thus, 3 flyrants is usually the maximum you can run. Secondly, most tournaments (except for the new Adepticon format) only allow for 2 sources. Currently, this build takes 3 (CAD, CAD, LoW), though your template will be ok. Lastly, no major tournaments currently allow for a Harridan (the BAO doesn't allow for the Hierophant either).
In short, the list you've provided is only allowable in casual, friendly games or in narrative play. Now with that having said, the Harridan/flyrant build will definitely give a knight army fits if they don't take enough anti-air with their support units.
Iechine wrote: It looks like my wife and I may get to play in a local 2v2 2000pt tournament on the 4th, which sounds like an awesome date as long as we can get a sitter.
We're looking at
Tyranids:
2x Flyrant with Electro
2x Ripper w/DS 2x Mawloc
150pts of something, possibly a 3rd Mawloc. Biovores even.
Eldar:
Jetseer x2
Jetbikes
2x Wraithknights
2 to 3 Dire Avenger filled Wave Serpents
It will be all book missions, which makes me consider taking more ripper broods and letting her bulk up on firepower while I handle mission objectives. I have NO idea what meta to expect as this isnt at our usual location, but her dual Wraithknights make me feel a lot better about running into Eldar or Knights.
That's a pretty lethal combination. I'm thinking for your bugs, you're going to want a venomthrope in your list somewhere.
For Eldar, give 1 jetseer the Mantle and the other Jetseer the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan. The stoneseer can join the mantleseer. I usually use the stoneseer to summon daemons. BTW, if you want to fit even 2 serpents into a 1K list with 2 WK's already, you're not going to be able to take 2 jetseers.
Once more I approach, though this list should at least make Shuppet and a few others happy (largely because I'm focusing on painting for the next few weeks to get things done and not letting myself fall for the terrible nature of Trygons.)
Spoiler:
Rules for the Tournament are as follows....
1800 points
No Unbound, LoW or Fortifications
Allies are allowed
Warlord Traits are rolled for at the beginning (So, obviously, aim for MoA. Go go Battleforged lists!)
What I have planned currently is the following...
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs
Seems stable so far, right?
Flyrants and Carnifexes provide a solid bunker in the terms of volume of shots, Crone is there to deal with enemy flyers or just be a nuisance and Vector strike lone ICs to ID them to death. T-fex is a nice solid bunker of anti-infantry and the Shrikes are my noble unit to murder big critters that come along.
But I have a second choice... for the cost of the T-fex and the Rippers I can take a third Flyrant and field 2 Force Org charts (as I will have 4 troops).
Ultimately I'm weighing the value of a 3rd Flyrant against a T-fex and some Rippers.
Opinions?
Go for the 3rd flyrant. More flyrants = more competitive. BTW, I'd keep the rippers (just take them min-sized) and take out a unit of termagants instead. You can also drop 1 zoanthrope as you already have a lot of synapse in your army.
xttz wrote: Here's a little conundrum... how do the Agile and Onslaught rules work together?
Agile says to pick one from:
1) Don't run and fire all weapons
2) Run once and fire 1 weapon
3) Run twice and don't shoot
Onslaught lets you "run and then shoot in the same shooting phase".
It's not clear how it would work with options 2 and 3. How would you all play it?
Use one or the other. Not both. Onslaught doesn't let you run twice. So it's either run once and fire everything, or run twice and don't shoot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: Oh and I know this isn't really tactics-related (but I am looking forward to the tactical applications that I will discover this Friday) - assembled my Dimachaeron and I'm very excited. I haven't proxied it in game so this will be my first time using him and after seeing the sculpt in person I don't really care if he's just a bullet magnet (but I'll do what I can to make sure that isn't the case )
Oh and sorry for the weird orientation for the pictures - I can't seem to fix it but when you click on the picture it's oriented correctly, as well as in all of my preview programs. If anyone knows how to fix that I'd love to hear it
Yeah, the model is a real beauty. It looks better in real life than in the photos. Pics can't really give justice to the amount of detail in the model.
Nomster13 wrote: Long time lurker on this thread and was curious on y'alls opinion on a few things. At my FLGS we play 2k games strictly by the book meaning as many CAD's, Formations and Apoc allies that you could fit. Only limitation is that Unbound normally plays with Unbound, and super heavy LoW list normally need to bring two list in case no one wants to play against them. I am a Tyranid player at heart and when it comes to the local tournaments and league play I am one of the more competitive player. My more competitive list is built around Dakka Flyrants and a Tyrannofex in the hopes to convince people to shoot him. For this months League I had been playing the following list:
Spoiler:
HQ:
3 Dakka Flyrants w/ Electro grubs
Elite:
Brood of 2 Zoanthropes
Venomthrope
Troops:
3 Minimum broods of Hormagaunts
Minimum brood of Warriors w/ barbed strangler
Heavy:
Tyrannofex w/ Electro grubs
2 Single Dakkafexes
Formation: Living artillery node
3 Biovores
Exocrine
3 Warriors 2w/ deathspitters and one with a venom cannon.
If there was one thing that list did it was destroy light armor and infantry. Only real issue I have is with heavy armor which id have to glance down or hope my carni's get close enough or high toughness like Wraithknights. So I was thinking of trading out the Dakkafexes for two Vindicare Assassins. Potentially limiting my mobility can be a bummer but the potential to actually shoot something on turn one in some games, explode a high armor vehicle, or focus on a wraithknight and with some luck kill it with 2 shots. Seems like a lot of gain for losing something everything else in my army does good at.
And I take hormagaunts over deep striking ripper broods because I have terrible luck on scatter and they are the fastest Obj Sec in the codex without a formation. Zoanthropes are together for the off chance they get to warp blast I have much better luck with 2 shots rather than one, assuming I make it to the To Hit portion.
Your list has enough scoring. You can drop the min-sized warrior unit and 1 zoanthrope to fit in the vindicare. Keep the dakkafexes and DO NOT take more than 1 vindicare. With all those egrubs, warp blast, carnifexes and now 1 vindicare, that is more than enough to take out heavy armor.
Iechine wrote: A good article of you to write, man. At Mechanicon my only current plan if I run into them is to send 4 flyrants to shock one knight a turn and wait on my Carnifex to move out in the later turns.
Thanks. And that is a good plan. Quad-flyrants will literally shred 1 knight a turn and with some change leftovers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/25 15:06:20
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think in any situation is it a good idea to focus Riptides. They are the tankiest models in the game from a point to durability ratio.
Unless you are running harridans and there are no flyers in the sky. Wounds on 2+ and ignores the Wraithknight's Armour. Has a 3+ and FNP of it's own. Literally, we just bring our own pacific rim. Two of them would be 24 shots (to 4 different targets). You want to see wraithknights hide in cover all game? It'll only cost you 1470 points. Or you could just bring one for 735. It literally won't die. I don't believe there's a single more durable thing in the entire game (except when An'ggrath decides to fly, and I mean really, why would he?) I think a cool and thematic list would be Skyblight plus a Harridan; you could even make it battle-forged. Skyblight will cost you....805 at minimum IIRC. After the Harridan, you'll have 310 points left. 2 Ripper Squads (or two Gant Squads) leaves you with 232 points (or 230 if you go the Gant route). This seems really attractive until you realize that my definition of "minimum" means that you don't get a template or the guns on the first hive tyrant, which is pretty worthless. Oh the math, we came so close. At 2k this is perfectly viable however. Gives you the 50 points necessary to kit out the flyrants, plus giving the rippers deep strike and grabbing a malanthrope for good measure (because obviously). All that is literally one minimum FOC, a LOW and a formation. Technically three sources if people care about those kinds of things, but that list is not about to go stomp a tournament any time soon.
That being said, I wonder if a Harridan list might? A hyper-durable gun platform that will explode armour and wraithknights before they know what hit them. Sure, it's not AP 2 but with that many STR 10 shots who cares? AP 3 is good enough.
Maybe something like:
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Well you could take a template or two off of the flyrants to give some deep strike to the rippers since the harridan will be dismantling heavy armor left and right. It's even easier if you just have one FOC. I don't know if the tournaments typically have a LOW and allies both count towards the "two source limit" meaning you couldn't take both, but let's assume that they do (so no third flyrant)
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
You've got 500 points left to spend to taste. My personal taste? Malan-in-a-box for 160, mawloc for 140 and 2 Dakkafex for 300.
I looked at the BAO LOW list and the Harridan was curiously excluded (though the Hierophant was not-so-curiously excluded). Even without the transport capacity/other upgrades, it's still pretty nuts. As far as the Harridan, though, yeah it's tough to kill, but it's 735 points. That's a lot of points!
That is a decent basis for a flyer list. You can't go wrong with 4 flyrants. However, there is a problem with that build in tournament play. First off all, most major tournament do not allow dual-CAD's. Instead, they tend to allow self-allying (at least the major ones in the US). Thus, 3 flyrants is usually the maximum you can run. Secondly, most tournaments (except for the new Adepticon format) only allow for 2 sources. Currently, this build takes 3 (CAD, CAD, LoW), though your template will be ok. Lastly, no major tournaments currently allow for a Harridan (the BAO doesn't allow for the Hierophant either).
In short, the list you've provided is only allowable in casual, friendly games or in narrative play. Now with that having said, the Harridan/flyrant build will definitely give a knight army fits if they don't take enough anti-air with their support units.
LOW doesn't count as a source. It is part of a CAD.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: 5. ObSec, or lack of. Adlance knights are not Objective Secured. Thus, if the bugs are going 2nd, they can still contest objectives held by these knights. Now if your opponent is running a regular IK detachment as opposed to the Adlance formation, then it just makes it easier for your bugs to take them out, especially with shooting.
Just for clarity sake, Knights can never get Objective Secured. It doesn't change a normal detachment vs Adamantine Lance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question 1. I've played against Imperial Knights 6-8 times so far, but it has always been a single Knight that I've decided to kill rather than ignore or tarpit. I usually include at least 1 unit of 20 Gargoyles of Hormagants in my list to tarpit things like Riptides or Wraith Knights. It was my vision that I should probably Surround the IK without assaulting it. How many rounds do you estimate a group of 20 fearless Gargoyles could tarpit a single Imperial Knight?
Question 2. I've been doing a lot of experimenting the the Barbed Heirodule. He hasn't face a Knight yet, but looking at the stats, a Barbed Heirodule has much to fear from an imperial Knight. It can kill one in combat if it gets to swing, but the Knight is higher initiative, and could kill it with the explosions. If not for the Invul, Barbie can shoot a knight to death, but if I have a Heirodule on the table, all the shields are going to be pointed right at him. This gives My flyrants a bit of an advantage, but makes Barbie something of an over costed points sink,because he's got to plink away at whatever supporting units the Knight has with it. Do you think that the existence of the Admantine Lance is a significant reason to move away from the Barbed Heirodule for competitive environments?
Question 3. Knights are stupidly popular these days. Creating many, many unbalanced lists. Is there enough of that effect to consider running a slight less balanced Tyranid list at high callibur competitive events that is a more effective counter to Imperial Knights? For instace, 3 Flyrants, 3 Crones.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/25 15:30:20
2014/09/25 15:37:27
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
That's a pretty lethal combination. I'm thinking for your bugs, you're going to want a venomthrope in your list somewhere.
For Eldar, give 1 jetseer the Mantle and the other Jetseer the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan. The stoneseer can join the mantleseer. I usually use the stoneseer to summon daemons. BTW, if you want to fit even 2 serpents into a 1K list with 2 WK's already, you're not going to be able to take 2 jetseers.
You're right about the points, we werent sure if we'd be able to be be lop sided with more points for eldar. Do you feel dropping a Knight for another WS and mantle on a jetseer is worth it? In this situation Im not sure I like losing a Knight.
As far as the Venomthrope goes, I dont see my bugs being centralized beyond turn 1, so thats 45 points on something that will be synapseless who also runs away, so I'm leary of taking him.
jy2 wrote: 5. ObSec, or lack of. Adlance knights are not Objective Secured. Thus, if the bugs are going 2nd, they can still contest objectives held by these knights. Now if your opponent is running a regular IK detachment as opposed to the Adlance formation, then it just makes it easier for your bugs to take them out, especially with shooting.
Just for clarity sake, Knights can never get Objective Secured. It doesn't change a normal detachment vs Adamantine Lance.
I must be missing something here. Why can't knights be ObSec again?
Question 1. I've played against Imperial Knights 6-8 times so far, but it has always been a single Knight that I've decided to kill rather than ignore or tarpit. I usually include at least 1 unit of 20 Gargoyles of Hormagants in my list to tarpit things like Riptides or Wraith Knights. It was my vision that I should probably Surround the IK without assaulting it. How many rounds do you estimate a group of 20 fearless Gargoyles could tarpit a single Imperial Knight?
Question 2. I've been doing a lot of experimenting the the Barbed Heirodule. He hasn't face a Knight yet, but looking at the stats, a Barbed Heirodule has much to fear from an imperial Knight. It can kill one in combat if it gets to swing, but the Knight is higher initiative, and could kill it with the explosions. If not for the Invul, Barbie can shoot a knight to death, but if I have a Heirodule on the table, all the shields are going to be pointed right at him. This gives My flyrants a bit of an advantage, but makes Barbie something of an over costed points sink,because he's got to plink away at whatever supporting units the Knight has with it. Do you think that the existence of the Admantine Lance is a significant reason to move away from the Barbed Heirodule for competitive environments?
Question 3. Knights are stupidly popular these days. Creating many, many unbalanced lists. Is there enough of that effect to consider running a slight less balanced Tyranid list at high callibur competitive events that is a more effective counter to Imperial Knights? For instace, 3 Flyrants, 3 Crones.
1. Single knights aren't that hard to kill. But if you're looking at tarpitting it with gargoyles, that's most likely going to depend on how many stomp attacks it gets each round. Assuming 2 stomps per phase, the knight will kill about 1.5 gargoyles with its normal attacks. Then the gargoyles pile-in. Just to simplifly, assume that each stomp hits 3 gargoyles (there is a diminishing returns on stomps the more gargoyles it kills). So in 1 phase, it will kill about 8 gargoyles a turn. So you surround it or screen it out with the gargoyles. It then takes 3 combat phases for the knight to kill them off. Basically, those gargoyles will buy you 2 game turns worth of time to try to kill off the rest of the knight's army.
2. The Barbed Hierodule (BH) is best used to force the knight to put its shield in 1 direction while your flyrants fly to its flanks to try to shoot at its "weak" side. However, going 1-on-1 with your BH against an IK isn't advisable. On average, the BH would do 2HP of damage with its shooting (against AV13 with 4++) and 2.5HP against IK side armor. Now this damage will drop against the Adlance formation to 1HP/1.25HP. In assault, most likely the BH will lose against an undamaged knight. That is because he strikes last, hits on 4's whereas the knight hits on 3's, and the fact that each D-hit will take out multiple wounds from the BH.
So to answer your question, yes, the BH is inefficient against the Adlance formation. That is because he is a deathstar unit by himself and the 3 knights with re-rollable saves can much more efficiently kill it than it can kill them. However, if you throw 2-3 flyrants in there, you can compete against triple-knights even with the BH. In this case, the BH is good because he forces the knights "attention" so that the flyrants can more easily kill them. In that regards, there is some synergy that will make the BH worthwhile. The only problem is that the rest of the Tyranid army is going to be razor-thin in terms of support units.
3. I'd recommend just taking your TAC lists. There is just no way for Tyranids to tailor slightly to 1 list (or meta) and have it efficient for another. You gear it more towards knights and you just may have problems against MSU builds, serpent-spam Eldar, shooty Tau, AV13 Necrons, deathstar builds or a plethora of other lethal tournament builds. Now if you know your meta is more knight-dominated than anything else, then I suppose you could tailor your list more towards knights. However, if you take your list to something like Nova, Adepticon or the LVO, you need to make sure it is either a good TAC list or go to the other extreme (i.e. running Skyblight, Tyranid flyer-spam or an extremely unbalanced build). Why extreme builds? Because you are gambling against the meta, hoping that you won't have to face your bad matchup and sometimes, this works. Other times, you run into your bad matchup and get destroyed. So in short, it really depends on your local meta as well as what you think is the current competitive meta. Sometimes, extreme builds do work, especially in smaller tournaments with fewer games. However, once you go up to larger tourneys like the GT's (where there are more games), the chances for your army to come up to a hard counter is much more likely.
You're right about the points, we werent sure if we'd be able to be be lop sided with more points for eldar. Do you feel dropping a Knight for another WS and mantle on a jetseer is worth it? In this situation Im not sure I like losing a Knight.
As far as the Venomthrope goes, I dont see my bugs being centralized beyond turn 1, so thats 45 points on something that will be synapseless who also runs away, so I'm leary of taking him.
Jetseer
Dire Avenger Holofield Scatter Laser Waveserpent
Dire Avenger Holofield Scatter Laser Waveserpent
Wraithknight
Wraithknight
With a little bit of points to spare. Havent heard back if I can self ally or if we can be lopsided on points.
Keep the 2nd WK. However, the problem with a jetseer without the Mantle is that he just won't survive unless you have reliable LOS-blocking terrain. So you may want to consider taking just a footseer and leaving him in the wave serpent, or dropping a wave serpent for the mantleseer, some jetbike troops and perhaps another support unit instead.
As for the tyranids, I think 3 mawlocs is overkill. IMO, you will never need more than 2. Perhaps a dakkafex for your 3rd heavy instead?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/25 16:51:08
jy2 wrote: 5. ObSec, or lack of. Adlance knights are not Objective Secured. Thus, if the bugs are going 2nd, they can still contest objectives held by these knights. Now if your opponent is running a regular IK detachment as opposed to the Adlance formation, then it just makes it easier for your bugs to take them out, especially with shooting.
Just for clarity sake, Knights can never get Objective Secured. It doesn't change a normal detachment vs Adamantine Lance.
I must be missing something here. Why can't knights be ObSec again?
jy2 wrote: [2. The Barbed Hierodule (BH) is best used to force the knight to put its shield in 1 direction while your flyrants fly to its flanks to try to shoot at its "weak" side. However, going 1-on-1 with your BH against an IK isn't advisable. On average, the BH would do 2HP of damage with its shooting (against AV13 with 4++) and 2.5HP against IK side armor. Now this damage will drop against the Adlance formation to 1HP/1.25HP. In assault, most likely the BH will lose against an undamaged knight. That is because he strikes last, hits on 4's whereas the knight hits on 3's, and the fact that each D-hit will take out multiple wounds from the BH.
So to answer your question, yes, the BH is inefficient against the Adlance formation. That is because he is a deathstar unit by himself and the 3 knights with re-rollable saves can much more efficiently kill it than it can kill them. However, if you throw 2-3 flyrants in there, you can compete against triple-knights even with the BH. In this case, the BH is good because he forces the knights "attention" so that the flyrants can more easily kill them. In that regards, there is some synergy that will make the BH worthwhile. The only problem is that the rest of the Tyranid army is going to be razor-thin in terms of support units.
Knights and Barbed Hierodule are both WS4, so the Both Hit on 4's. The Knight does hit first, and when it does, it will on average do about 2 Wounds to the BH, but there is a 25% chance it kills it outright.
When the Barbed Hierodule gets to hit, it will on average do 2.08 HP's to the Knight.
Then we are at initiative one, and they stomp each other. Stomps on average will do 0.05 wounds to the Barbed Hierodule, but have a 33% chance of killing it outright. Stomps on average will do 2 HP's to the Knight.
Most of the time the Knight will kill the Hierodule, but take 4.08 Hull points doing so. If the Heirodule charges the Knight, then the Knight take 5.16 HP.
Statistically, it is OK to charge a Knight with a Barbed Hierodule if that Knight only has 3 Hull points left, Though the Hierodule is going to take 4 wounds on average, and has a 41% of dying in the Effort, so I would council against it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/25 22:05:48
2014/09/25 22:30:20
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Question for those of you who have run the Dimachaeron - do you find it necessary to have a 1:1 Dima: Malanthrope ratio? I think I'm going to wind up running two Dimachaerons in my list but I don't know if I should take a second Malanthrope or keep the bastion that I've been using. On the plus side, the second malanthrope would allow me to drop the AG on my mawloc, giving me the points I need to have my fourth ripper squad join their buddies deep striking.
2014/09/25 22:58:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Hopefully work will come through for me at give me Sunday off, in which case I can do my second tourny at Huzzah games. Its 1850 Nova, with no FW but you can self ally. Last time I went I played Eric's bike list, maybe this time I can get some other top level practice.
Lots of devourers on the field, and overly offensive. Super light on synapse, but I know there is a lot of LOS blocking terrain. May have to cast Dominion often.
luke1705 wrote: Question for those of you who have run the Dimachaeron - do you find it necessary to have a 1:1 Dima: Malanthrope ratio? I think I'm going to wind up running two Dimachaerons in my list but I don't know if I should take a second Malanthrope or keep the bastion that I've been using. On the plus side, the second malanthrope would allow me to drop the AG on my mawloc, giving me the points I need to have my fourth ripper squad join their buddies deep striking.
I vote 1 to 1. I almost always lose one Malanthrope in every game I play. Having that 2nd one there to continue providing synapse and preferred enemy is awesome.
I have some mini batreps as far as the Dimacharon. I took a list that was Melee themed to intentionally tank a couple of games. At the last second I swapped in a Barbed Hierodule because I didn't have the Helstorm template to run the Scythed version.
Here was the list I ran:
Spoiler:
Walkrant (RC's, ST's, E. Grubs, AG's)
+ 3 Tyrant Guard (AG's, 1 had a Crushing Claw.)
Hauspex (AG)
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
16 HGants
16 HGants
Dimacharon
Dimacharon
Barbed Hierodule.
Game 1,
Spoiler:
I played an I.G. Armored battle group gunline. I don't think I can stress how much of a gunline he was playing. We were Vanguard, ever turn he would roll for his reserves, and then skip to shooting.
His list:
2 Punishers (1 was pask)
1 Lemun Russ (Tank Commander)
10 Veterans in a Chimera
10 Veterans in a Chimera
1 Lemun Russ
3 Sentinals with Las Cannons
3 Sentinals with Las Cannons
3 Vendettas in a squadron.
We played a BAO mission.
He reserved everything except for his sentinals and Lemun Russes.
He got first turn, but I siezed
My Turn 1 Barbed heirodule did all of the work. 2 HP on Pask, and Killed another Lemun Russ turn 1.
His turn 1, Shot, did nothing.
My turn 2, Barbed Heirodule killed pask and his tank commander. My Hormagants were about to attempt a 9" charge on his Sentinals when he conceded.
He demanded an immediate rematch blaming his reserve rolls. I felt bad, but agreed. I wanted to see how much of a threat 3 vendettas were to my MC's.
Game 2:
Spoiler:
Same list as game one. Same approach by my opponent, except this time he tried to give a couple of orders.
We played a BAO mission that was Hammer and Anvil.
He got first turn, and I didn't sieze. He deployed everything but the vendettas at the edge of his deployment zone facing me.
His turn 1, he shot and did nothing.
My Turn 1, I rolled a 2" move through cover three times! 2,2,1 or 2,1,1. It was insane. I rand everything except for Barbie which put some wounds on pask (Immobilized), and the tank commander.
His turn 2, Failed his reserves shot and killed a Malanthrope! with pask ignoring cover. He gave Monster Hunter to the Sentinals which did 1 wound to Barbie.
My turn 2, Barbie killed the Lemun russ, and a Chimera, and then 1/2 of my army failed a charge at the guys inside. Hormagants to the rescue. 10" charge swept the veterans. My other Gaunts charged one group of Sentinals. Then we had a 10 minute argument on if my Hormagaunts could score an objective that was being contested by Pask. It was partially a miscommunication, because I thought he was saying they were too close to pask, and I kept moving them back and saying "I don't have to touch the objective to score it, just be within 3 inches".
His turn 3: failed his reserves. He put Ignore cover on Pask's unit. I encouraged him as strenuously to also put monster hunter on Pask as well. He wouldn't hear of it, putting monster hunter on the sentinels again. Sentinals missed everything. Pask put 3 wounds on Barbie.
My turn 3: Barbie Killed the punisher with Pask (still alive), put 2 HP on the other tank commander, I had a Dima ready to charge the tarpitted sentinals, my Hauspex was ready to charge the non-tarpitted ones. My other Dima ready to charge the Chimera, and Barbie had a 4" charge on Pask. He conceded.
I've got to figure out some way to lose to this guy without making it look like I'm actively trying. He was undefeated somehow in our campaign except the 3 games that I beat him. I've tried running hoards against him, but I can easily out score him. I've tried giving him my list ahead of time, but he wasn't able to win that game. I've run really inefficient lists against him (Swarmlord + 3 Tyrant guard with Adrenal Glands!, Toxin Sacs! and Bone Swords!). Next time I'm going to bring no shrouded, and run 15 Genestealers with the Broodlord and as many Deep striking rippers as I can. Maybe I will outflank the genestealers.
Game 3:
This was a weird 3 way game. The important things are as follows.
1) I got a turn 2 charge through cover against a large group of bloodletters with a special character with a group of Gants, and a Dimachaeron. They put all their attacks (that they could) against the Dimacharon, and Killed it before it even got to attack. My gants eventually beat them.
2) I got a turn 3 charge with a Dimachaeron into an ongoing combat with a great unclean one who had just killed my warlord. The Great Unclean one got to roll on something that increased its initiative to 7 or 8. It Killed the Dimacharon before it even got to attack.
At that point I condeeded because between the 2 of us we had essentially tabled the 3rd player, only I lost quite a bit doing so, and he lost nothing, and his Great Unclean One was unstoppable by anything I had left.
2014/09/25 23:42:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
jy2 wrote: 5. ObSec, or lack of. Adlance knights are not Objective Secured. Thus, if the bugs are going 2nd, they can still contest objectives held by these knights. Now if your opponent is running a regular IK detachment as opposed to the Adlance formation, then it just makes it easier for your bugs to take them out, especially with shooting.
Just for clarity sake, Knights can never get Objective Secured. It doesn't change a normal detachment vs Adamantine Lance.
I must be missing something here. Why can't knights be ObSec again?
jy2 wrote: [2. The Barbed Hierodule (BH) is best used to force the knight to put its shield in 1 direction while your flyrants fly to its flanks to try to shoot at its "weak" side. However, going 1-on-1 with your BH against an IK isn't advisable. On average, the BH would do 2HP of damage with its shooting (against AV13 with 4++) and 2.5HP against IK side armor. Now this damage will drop against the Adlance formation to 1HP/1.25HP. In assault, most likely the BH will lose against an undamaged knight. That is because he strikes last, hits on 4's whereas the knight hits on 3's, and the fact that each D-hit will take out multiple wounds from the BH.
So to answer your question, yes, the BH is inefficient against the Adlance formation. That is because he is a deathstar unit by himself and the 3 knights with re-rollable saves can much more efficiently kill it than it can kill them. However, if you throw 2-3 flyrants in there, you can compete against triple-knights even with the BH. In this case, the BH is good because he forces the knights "attention" so that the flyrants can more easily kill them. In that regards, there is some synergy that will make the BH worthwhile. The only problem is that the rest of the Tyranid army is going to be razor-thin in terms of support units.
Knights and Barbed Hierodule are both WS4, so the Both Hit on 4's. The Knight does hit first, and when it does, it will on average do about 2 Wounds to the BH, but there is a 25% chance it kills it outright.
When the Barbed Hierodule gets to hit, it will on average do 2.08 HP's to the Knight.
Then we are at initiative one, and they stomp each other. Stomps on average will do 0.05 wounds to the Barbed Hierodule, but have a 33% chance of killing it outright. Stomps on average will do 2 HP's to the Knight.
Most of the time the Knight will kill the Hierodule, but take 4.08 Hull points doing so. If the Heirodule charges the Knight, then the Knight take 5.16 HP.
Statistically, it is OK to charge a Knight with a Barbed Hierodule if that Knight only has 3 Hull points left, Though the Hierodule is going to take 4 wounds on average, and has a 41% of dying in the Effort, so I would council against it.
Man, I'm making little mistakes everywhere today. Thanks for some of the corrections. However, here I get to point out one of your mistakes as well.
Stomp attacks don't work against other super-heavies and gargantuans, so no stomp attacks against each other.
Now with that said, both the BH and the IK have 6 Wounds or Hull Points. However, each HP costs about 62-pts for a knight and each wound costs about 94-pts for the BH. So assuming they both cause 2W to each other (based off of your calculations), the knight is taking out 188-pts of enemy each turn whereas the BH is only taking out 124-pt of enemy each turn. Thus, in a head-on battle, the knight is much more efficient than the BH. Moral of the story? Do not charge your BH head-on into combat against the knights unless you have no other alternative. Rather, use him as a distraction/decoy against the IK army while the rest of your army takes chunks out of those knights.
Eihnlazer wrote: I personally love sticking a barbed heirodule behind an imperial bunker and utilizing an ammo dump.
I run mine with a Void Shield Generator with 3 Void Shields to enhance its survivability. I'm not sure that it would survive a proper centstar. Probably not, but he survives plenty of other things.
Farsight Bomb can take him out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/26 12:32:59
2014/09/26 12:37:12
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
jy2 wrote: Coming up next....Part II - Ground Tyranids versus Imperial Knights.
Looking forward to this. My general experience against multiple knights (generally 2-4, though one fellow has 6...) has been that and all-ground Tyranid list might as well not bother deploying if the opponent is bringing multiple knights. That said, I have managed to kill them using ground monsters but it requires the presence of a Harpy in order to overcome the Knight's obnoxious I4 (which is really the crux of the problem when you boil it down - almost all of the monsters that can actually hurt it swing after it..) and some form of gaunt to intercept them so you can charge on your own terms.
Also I have to say, I'm really scared of that new Knight Castigator. It seems to be tailor-made to kill Tyranids, even more so than the regular ones...
2014/09/26 15:16:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Hey guys, is there a concensus on what is best to use vs wave serpent spam yet ?
Have nt played against it but at our local store there are 2 guys wrecking everyone with those and I want to prepare my nids for the humiliation that is to come.
2014/09/26 15:23:53
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
cyberjonesy wrote: Hey guys, is there a concensus on what is best to use vs wave serpent spam yet ?
Have nt played against it but at our local store there are 2 guys wrecking everyone with those and I want to prepare my nids for the humiliation that is to come.
While it probably isn't consensus, I've found from personal experience against my brother that large quantities of Adrenal-gland equipped Hormagaunts or Gargoyles are the bane of serpents. All of their defensive functions are nullified in melee and gaunts bring the numbers needed to weather the barrage and the speed needed to catch them. At best, each individual wave serpent can spit out 14 shots a turn (4x Scatter Laser shots + 3x Shuriken Cannon Shots + 7x Serpent Shield shots) and will usually end up with less. While this seems like a lot, in order to outright destroy a larger brood they will have to dedicate multiple wave serpents to it (generally my brother needs to throw 3-4 serpents worth of shooting to take down 1 brood of 30 AG gaunts - after cover and bad dice). Basically, the gaunts end up forcing the Eldar either "waste" firepower against a sub-optimal target or they will end up caught and glanced to death (multiple units of 20-30 odd gaunts has a huge board footprint, hard to just play keep away when half the board is covered in gaunts). They can drop a unit of Dire Avengers out to act as a speed bump, but a large blob of gaunts is perfectly happy chewing up a 5-strong squad of T3 squishies.
Apart from gaunts, Hive Guard and Tyrants have been he next best options. Hive Guard as they bypass serpent defenses (though have the drawback of being a "nobrainer" target - high threat and T6 is irrelevant to S6+ guns) and the Tyrants just because.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/26 16:52:07
2014/09/26 20:04:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
A large brood of AG Gargoyles are awesome against a Serpent, IF it can get there. If a decent Eldar player doesnt want that to happen, they'll just move away. And best case scenario has that happening turn 3, unless they park their Serpents and never move them on the front line, in which case you probably dont need too many tactics to beat them.
Iechine wrote: A large brood of AG Gargoyles are awesome against a Serpent, IF it can get there. If a decent Eldar player doesnt want that to happen, they'll just move away. And best case scenario has that happening turn 3, unless they park their Serpents and never move them on the front line, in which case you probably dont need too many tactics to beat them.
Raveners with RC's or Shrikes with RC's work well too.
2014/09/26 22:04:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
After a trip to Lowes and 2 hours with zero cooperation from my 2 year old, Ive gotten my display board for my 1850 list finished...I think. Pics to follow tomorrow.
So yes, I've gotten my display board done for Mechanicon, but I actually havent fully committed to my list yet. I feel critically NOT TAC and was pondering dropping a Fex for Gargoyles. It'd look like this with Double CAD.
Flyrant w/Electro
Flyrant w/Electro
Flyrant w/Electro
Flyrant w/Electro
Malanthrope
4x Ripper Broods with DS 30 Gargoyles (or 2x15, or 23 with Adrenal Glands)
2x Carnifex w/Devourers
Mawloc
At Mechanicon, I could easily run in to a 6+ Riptide list, with tons of SkyRays. I could run in to a plethora of things where Fexes will be dead before they bring their firepower to bear...they are super squishy.
In my list, how does everyone feel about 15x2 vs 23 AG? Normally yes, bodies over upgrades, but as a screening unit of 23 they can do that job as well as threaten vehicles. But 8 pt models in a screening unit isnt terrific either.
Either way I can modify my display board so that doesnt factor into my choice.
Hulksmash wrote: Ignore the knights. Tear down the riptides and obsec troop units. A lot depends on your list and the mission. Normally I'd say play the mission too. Once the tides and obsec are gone then he has to split up to grab objectives and such. When that happens you can shred 1 knight a turn.
For example I run a Nid/Daemon list. But if I was running pure Nids I'd be inclined to go with skyblight and normal nids. I'd been considering running 3 Flyrants, 3 Crones, and 3 Harpies once you take the Skyblight. That should just shred knights since your crone's St8 vector is a random facing. Also good use of Onslaught helps kill knights too.
If you can find 25pts I recommend a venomthrope. But those last 15pts are hard to come by.
Be more concerned with the Riptide/Knight list that brings Riptides w/Velocity Tracker. That's a tougher one.
Listen to Hulksmash. He's a tournament-veteran and Tyranid player who knows what he is talking about. I will expound more on this later in my tactica.
I'd rather listen to logic, than the regular jy2 championing of anyone who's ever played with him ever in any tournament since the beginning of time Joking here btw. Well, only half joking.
Regardless, that advice is pretty specific to a FMC spam build and considering that Skyblight fell off hard and almost all of us have a good chunk of our army in ground units, do NOT blindly listen to this advice, as you want those Knights dead and then you p much just win so long as your entire army isn't decimated in the process.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/09/29 02:54:53
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
luke1705 wrote: Question for those of you who have run the Dimachaeron - do you find it necessary to have a 1:1 Dima: Malanthrope ratio? I think I'm going to wind up running two Dimachaerons in my list but I don't know if I should take a second Malanthrope or keep the bastion that I've been using. On the plus side, the second malanthrope would allow me to drop the AG on my mawloc, giving me the points I need to have my fourth ripper squad join their buddies deep striking.
I only run 1 malanthrope in my army, even when I am running 2 dimas. However, I do have a bastion to keep my malan safe until I advance my army.
Eihnlazer wrote: I personally love sticking a barbed heirodule behind an imperial bunker and utilizing an ammo dump.
I run mine with a Void Shield Generator with 3 Void Shields to enhance its survivability. I'm not sure that it would survive a proper centstar. Probably not, but he survives plenty of other things.
jy2 wrote: Coming up next....Part II - Ground Tyranids versus Imperial Knights.
Looking forward to this. My general experience against multiple knights (generally 2-4, though one fellow has 6...) has been that and all-ground Tyranid list might as well not bother deploying if the opponent is bringing multiple knights. That said, I have managed to kill them using ground monsters but it requires the presence of a Harpy in order to overcome the Knight's obnoxious I4 (which is really the crux of the problem when you boil it down - almost all of the monsters that can actually hurt it swing after it..) and some form of gaunt to intercept them so you can charge on your own terms.
Also I have to say, I'm really scared of that new Knight Castigator. It seems to be tailor-made to kill Tyranids, even more so than the regular ones...
If the Castigator is by himself, you can kill him just like you would any other knight. If not, then target him first. If you have 3 flyrants, it becomes a lot easier.
cyberjonesy wrote: Hey guys, is there a concensus on what is best to use vs wave serpent spam yet ?
Have nt played against it but at our local store there are 2 guys wrecking everyone with those and I want to prepare my nids for the humiliation that is to come.
Serpent-spam is tough but not insurmountable for our bugs. However, you need mobility to kill them (in other words, flyrants). You also want to go first so you can get your FMC's airborne and your psychic buffs going.
Also, it helps to bring the bastion against serpent-spam. Otherwise, your venom/malan will be one of the first units to go.
Iechine wrote: So yes, I've gotten my display board done for Mechanicon, but I actually havent fully committed to my list yet. I feel critically NOT TAC and was pondering dropping a Fex for Gargoyles. It'd look like this with Double CAD.
Flyrant w/Electro
Flyrant w/Electro
Flyrant w/Electro
Flyrant w/Electro
Malanthrope
4x Ripper Broods with DS 30 Gargoyles (or 2x15, or 23 with Adrenal Glands)
2x Carnifex w/Devourers
Mawloc
At Mechanicon, I could easily run in to a 6+ Riptide list, with tons of SkyRays. I could run in to a plethora of things where Fexes will be dead before they bring their firepower to bear...they are super squishy.
In my list, how does everyone feel about 15x2 vs 23 AG? Normally yes, bodies over upgrades, but as a screening unit of 23 they can do that job as well as threaten vehicles. But 8 pt models in a screening unit isnt terrific either.
Either way I can modify my display board so that doesnt factor into my choice.
Forget about the AG on the gargoyles. Either 30 or 2x15. Personally, I prefer 30 for 2 reasons mainly. Firstly, if they reduce 1 unit of 15 to 5-7, then the opponent can effectively ignore it as a threat. Secondly, casting Catalyst on 30 is better than casting 2 Catalysts on 15+15. In other words, psychic buffs work better on 1 big unit.
Biovores even.
Quad-flyrants will literally shred 1 knight a turn and with some change leftovers.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Joking here 