The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**jy2**

Tyrpak wrote:
jy2 wrote:
What type of tournaments do they run? Single CAD + allies? Self-allying allowed? Double-CAD? Whichever, maximize on the number of Dakka Flyrants (Winged Tyrants with 2x Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs) that is allowed. Bring 3 if self-allying is allowed. Bring 4 if double-CAD. Flyrants are our most consistent performers and also our most flexible. You can't go wrong with them. If you've got the points, then also bring a formation like Living Artillery. I personally like Skyblight but it is a large investment in points (800+ pts). Also bring at least 1 venomthrope (or if FW is allowed, bring the even better malanthrope instead). Finally, it can't hurt to bring shooty units like the dakkafex.

Here are 2 keywords that I follow when I build my lists - MOBILE FIREPOWER. If it's mobile or if it's got good firepower, then you can't lose. If it's got BOTH mobility AND firepower, then it's a winner.

TCO caved in, and allowed self-allying for everyone, on tyranid pressure. No double-CAD, only 1 ally, OR 1 formation.

Either with self-ally, or with Skyblight, 3rd flyrant is already in.
I had success with 2 more zoa (feeding WC for tyrants powers) and 1x2 venoms, switching the venoms to malanthrope next month when they allow FW finally.

My problem is, that dakkafexes are not mobile. Also tried t-fex (acid+shredder), had some fun moments with the torrent, but also not mobile.
Exocrine barely survives turn 1 on average.

Harpy and Crone are mobile, but after a jink... no firepower. Should I bring only 1 Crone to VS?

Do we have anything in between?

Both the dakkafex and the t-fex are decent choices. If you can get Onslaught, then your dakkafexes will be somewhat mobile. However, even without high mobility, the dakkafex is still good. Why? Because it is a dual-purpose unit, and any unit that is multi-purposed is a good unit in my books. The dakkafex provides good shooting. He is also a threat to heavy armor as the only S9 unit in the book that doesn't need to smash. That is why so many people use him. Tyranids don't have a lot of answers against heavy armor other than electroshock grubs, haywire guards and carnifexes (and haywire hive guards aren't that good anymore).

The Acid Spray T-fex and make for a good bullet magnet, but I don't recommend ever running more than 1 in the army.

Crones are not as good as they used to be. However, they still serve a purpose as a support unit specialized against other flyers. So if you see a lot of flyers (or open-topped transports) in your locale, you may want to consider the crone. Otherwise, he is optional in a Take-All-Comer's bug list. Personally for me, I don't run the crone unless I am running Skyblight. Instead, I go for gargoyles in my standard list.

2 more units you can consider are biovores and the mawloc. Both are outstanding units that deserve a spot in any Tyranid TAC's list. You're also more likely to find biovores nowadays in the Living Artillery formation.

**pinecone77**

NightWrench wrote:
I am curious to see how the loss of the baron impacts the meta. How many eldar lists had the baron a 5 man kalabite squad and the beast pack. Death stars with out hit and run can be tar pitted by our little gibblers.

I have been playing bugs since 94 and after a few years away I am coming back to my 40k roots.

A quick question. Can a core of two fly rants 4 dakka flexes and two ripper swarms be competitive? The meta I am playing in for next few months allows no forgeworld no formations or strongpoint/escalation. Basically only the CAD is valid. Will my core have a chance? Not sure what to fill it out with besides a venomthrope.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:
@Jy2

I know. I harped on Reece at Nova about it I told him if he's going to outlaw CtA he should outlaw BB as well

It's really, really solid to mix Nid FMC's with Daemon Summoning. So good. Also having played them together I understand fully why Nids were the only book not to get access to Daemonology.

It's a good core, though I like to use lots of Troops, so I would add some. (To screen the big Bugs if nothing else)

Hulk would you do LOC and 11 horrors or multiple horror units or keep it cheap and do an LOC and min unit of nurglings?

**SHUPPET**

Strat_N8 wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:
Harpy I do think is maybe the better of the two... but I don't know, neither of them seem to be focused enough to actually make back their cost in points... and the fact that we CAN take so much better pinning that Harpys makes them hard to justify for me...

For me, the main selling point for the Harpy has generally been its sonic scream ability as an "enabler" for Carnifexes. Most walkers (including knights) and monsters rely on their superior initiative to survive against Carnifexes. You take that away, and they are little more than a heap of scrap waiting to be looted by a passing Grot. For example, if you charge an Imperial Knight with a pair of Carnifexes, odds are they will do maybe a hull point or two from their HoW and then die before they can swing. If you throw a Harpy in the mix, they will do an average of 4.5 hull points before factoring in any explosion results and ignoring any strength boosts (I'm assuming said Fexes are of the common dakka variety - melee fexes or fexes with AGs fair better).

SHUPPET wrote:

The crones however are even worse, they would fit fine with Living Artillery builds if they did their job a bit better, they were never top notch but now they are alot worse and have no real place in any TAC lists imo unless specifically tailoring against certain builds, they won't ever be close to worthwhile the points investment unless your opponent dedicates all firepower their way instead of at Flyrants (stupidly) and you get to jink it off all game.

This one is really hard for me to argue, because on one hand I fully agree they lost almost all of their anti-ground capabilities which drastically reduced their generalist capability but on the other hand they are still good at their intended role of air superiority (especially against other FMC). They are cheaper than the vast majority of air-to-air fliers in the game (Stormtalon being the only real completion for cheapness) and are arguably more competent at the job since they always have the option of the second turn advantage (go first = fly off table | go second = reserve them like any other interceptor) and their AA functions aren't hindered significantly by using their jink since most of the damage will be through vector strikes with the odd tentaclid thrown in to finish the job.

I don't know. I guess it again depends heavily on what the rest of the list looks like and how many Tyrants you are running. A list with 3-4 Tyrants probably doesn't really need the Hive Crones since that should prove enough AA for most competitive events, but a list with say 2 Tyrants could benefit from the addition of a Crone or two to provide air cover while the Tyrants focus on light armor and infantry.

Yeah, I agree that Sonic Scream is the deciding trait of the Harpy, to even getting close to justifying taking a Harpy you need to be able to put the screech to good use. That being said, thanks the assault nerfs its still much less reliable than it should be, and kinda sucks trying to get it into combat, while at best massively telegraphing your plan for the next turn, not to mention all they have to do is hug cover and as a result they will still hit back in CC at the same time as you since frags aren't readily available to our army. On top of that, as I said, it just doesn't really have its place in a COMPETITIVE lists even tho you can find a use for it making your Genestealers or Carnifexes whatever

And yeh, as I said Crones can be used for pretty specific match ups, but in TAC i think 9 games out of 10 there is something that would have done whatever they did except better

I feel like me and you are on the same page with these two, I'm maybe a little more skeptical of their performance but I think you have quite clearly recognised the impact that the changes have had very cohorently.

I can see the argument that they are still useable (this isn't directed at you btw Strat), but I can't see the argument that they didn't get worse this edition just because they received a positive change amongst all the negative, if people are saying this then I feel like it's too much denial to even bother having a sensible debate lol

**gigasnail**

I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.

It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.

**tag8833**

gigasnail wrote:
I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.

It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.

This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.

**pinecone77**

tag8833 wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.

It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.

Word, one reason I can still use my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant is because VS, Thorax Hive, is a 'bread and butter" move for me.

**tag8833**

pinecone77 wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.

It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.

Word, one reason I can still use my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant is because VS, Thorax Hive, is a 'bread and butter" move for me.

So you fly for a turn, then land for a turn, then charge turn 3?
1) isn't it hard to find something to vector strike on turn 1?
2) Why not try for a turn 2 charge?

**Ratius**

Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.

**pinecone77**

tag8833 wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.

It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.

Word, one reason I can still use my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant is because VS, Thorax Hive, is a 'bread and butter" move for me.

So you fly for a turn, then land for a turn, then charge turn 3?
1) isn't it hard to find something to vector strike on turn 1?
2) Why not try for a turn 2 charge?

I didn't say it was super awesome.

But it does let me "do stuff" just fine, and if it come up, I gots a Bonesword,and lash whip with somebodies name on it.

These days I see no reason to Fly, I just look to hide some place, and Jink if I must. Shrouding makes for a fairly durable Big Bug, and if I eat an Alpha Strike, the rest of the Hive is intact.

To be honest, I consider my "best" "strategy" to be talking up how Awesome! and Deadly my Tyranofex is.

And if it gets ignored, I try to educate the fool.

And just because it's hard to do, does not make it impossible...I always seem to find Something to VS...Drop pods come to mind real quick.

Against a gunline, I usually pack twin Mawlocs., so I'm good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratius wrote:
Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.

I have a total non-answer...magnets! That way you have Both.

If not it depends...knowing nothing, I'd say the Crone is more likely to be useful...

**Ratius**

Im useless at magnetizing :(

**pinecone77**

Ratius wrote:
Im useless at magnetizing :(

In that case...well I believe you'll get more use out of a Crone. I like Vector Strike, and Template. And the Haywire is just too good, we have so few ways to deal with good armor.

**jy2**

Ratius wrote:
Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.

In general, people tend to find the crone slightly more useful. The ability to vector-strike and then flame is a very good tool and its haywire shots are useful against heavy armor, something the tyranids often have trouble dealing with. Moreover, it is much better against enemy flyers, something the harpy struggles against.

**NightWrench**

As I am getting back into playing 40k and not just theory crafting and tactics for friends who have been playing (finally have time to paint and play again). Back to the roots of bugs, first army back in 94. I am old...anyway

Where I am playing is not allowing any formations other than the CAD out of the main book and they are allowing the allies matrix only books that are in print so no data slates either oh and no forgeworld...

My question is am I trying to dip into two many components and not just concentrating enough on bugzilla?

HQ
Flyrant twin link dev, thorax
Flyrant twin link dev, thorax

Venomthrope

Rippers with DS
Rippers with DS

Carni brood x2 with dev
Carni brood x2 with dev

That is 1170. I want to have a 1500 list and a 1750 list That is what I want to do for my core.

Thoughts..
Drop a ripper swawm add gaunts and Tervigon. With the 60 points left over I am thinking crushing claws on tervigon and upgrades to devilgaunts

At 1750 I would add a Mawloc and the swarm back and finally gargoyles or add a third flyrant and move the ripper swam to his troop choice.

I own all of this but the tervigon and I am not against buying it.

Any help would be appreciated. Oh my other thought thanks to HulkSmash is...

GUO ML 3
horrors x11
DP ML 3 of nurgle with greater to get the ID weapon for annoying MC.

I own all kinds of hounds and deamonettes to summon...

That is about 600 points for that.

**tag8833**

NightWrench wrote:
As I am getting back into playing 40k and not just theory crafting and tactics for friends who have been playing (finally have time to paint and play again). Back to the roots of bugs, first army back in 94. I am old...anyway

Where I am playing is not allowing any formations other than the CAD out of the main book and they are allowing the allies matrix only books that are in print so no data slates either oh and no forgeworld...

My question is am I trying to dip into two many components and not just concentrating enough on bugzilla?

Spoiler:

HQ
Flyrant twin link dev, thorax
Flyrant twin link dev, thorax

Venomthrope

Rippers with DS
Rippers with DS

Carni brood x2 with dev
Carni brood x2 with dev

That is 1170. I want to have a 1500 list and a 1750 list That is what I want to do for my core.

Thoughts..
Drop a ripper swawm add gaunts and Tervigon. With the 60 points left over I am thinking crushing claws on tervigon and upgrades to devilgaunts

At 1750 I would add a Mawloc and the swarm back and finally gargoyles or add a third flyrant and move the ripper swam to his troop choice.

I own all of this but the tervigon and I am not against buying it.

Any help would be appreciated. Oh my other thought thanks to HulkSmash is...

GUO ML 3
horrors x11
DP ML 3 of nurgle with greater to get the ID weapon for annoying MC.

I own all kinds of hounds and deamonettes to summon...

That is about 600 points for that.

You need a zoenthrope or probably 2. You can't let the Carnifexes get out of synapse or they only get to shoot 1/2 of the time, and Flyrants are enough Synapse, because they are too powerful to have to baby sit, and their movement restrictions when flying make it difficult.

**jy2**

@NightWrench

Agreed with Tag. You need Synapse to anchor down your carnifexes. Or you may want to run 3 units of 1 dakkafex each and 1-2 zoans and then throw in your Daemon summoning allies.

BTW, give your flyrants electroshock grubs.

**SHUPPET**

Flyrants say Thorax next to them, can't imagine that meanin anything other than eGrubs

You need more Synapse as said, Zoanthropes good for this list, as is replacing the troops with 3man Warrior squads incl/ Stranglethorn Cannon. From there, the world is your oyster as you have the core of a very good list, and there is a lot of options open for that last Heavy slot. I'd recommend Biovores, and from there the Living Artillery formation to open that HS slot back up and give you another choice.

**Mad..**

Ratius wrote:
Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.

I was having a similar debate, and have recently decided on a crone.

I'm going to go with a crone as it seems more TAC and more useful than the Harpy overall.

Main thing that did it for me though was that I don't like the way the Harpy looks with the two guns... I much rather the the crone with the tentaclids hanging onto the wings and the "spit stuff out the mouth" cannon... just feels more organic, alien and Tyranid to me

Anyway, can always use a crone model as "counts as" harpy if I wanted to give it a run.

**Wilson**

I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:

1.) Deathleaper assasin brood in Eternal war missions - is this an effective formation to use? I've written a list ( see link)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617270.page and believe it could work well however I have not run it just yet. I've used LAN and it's great but I'd like to try something a little different.

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

**jy2**

Wilson wrote:
I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:

1.) Deathleaper assasin brood in Eternal war missions - is this an effective formation to use? I've written a list ( see link)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617270.page and believe it could work well however I have not run it just yet. I've used LAN and it's great but I'd like to try something a little different.

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

1. It could be. You use them to put more targets on the table that the opponent needs to deal with. Also put them near objectives and ruins (obviously for cover). If your missions have a Maelstrom component, then this formation can be very good. I see them used more to throw the opponent off and to distract them rather than actually hoping to do a lot of damage.

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SHUPPET wrote:
Flyrants say Thorax next to them, can't imagine that meanin anything other than eGrubs

If the thorax weapon is egrubs, then my bad. Don't have my book with me. If not, then my advice stands - take egrubs on your flyrants over any other thorax weapons.

**Wilson**

jy2 wrote:
Wilson wrote:
I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

frick! well, i've just blown £65 on 5 more lictors... why can't nids just self ally like Marines...god dammit.

P.S thank you brother for your very swift response!

**jy2**

No worries. Glad to be of service.

**Xyptc**

Wilson wrote:
jy2 wrote:
Wilson wrote:
I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

frick! well, i've just blown £65 on 5 more lictors... why can't nids just self ally like Marines...god dammit.

P.S thank you brother for your very swift response!

Maybe use Deathleaper as your Warlord in a CAD then, and use your five Lictors as a Forest Brood?

They are a really underestimated unit. They hit like a truck, come with assault grenades, have moderate pin-point shooting when you place them (ideal for damaging artillery or lone units), and are prime candidates for the "go to ground/fly a Tyrant over to them, then charge" strategy.

**jy2**

The thing is, he would then lose a flyrant if he ran Deathleaper as part of the Primary.

**Wilson**

Xyptc wrote:
Wilson wrote:
jy2 wrote:
Wilson wrote:
I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

frick! well, i've just blown £65 on 5 more lictors... why can't nids just self ally like Marines...god dammit.

P.S thank you brother for your very swift response!

Maybe use Deathleaper as your Warlord in a CAD then, and use your five Lictors as a Forest Brood?

They are a really underestimated unit. They hit like a truck, come with assault grenades, have moderate pin-point shooting when you place them (ideal for damaging artillery or lone units), and are prime candidates for the "go to ground/fly a Tyrant over to them, then charge" strategy.

I'll have a look at the Forest brood but a 250 pt unit that has a 5+ save is frighteningly bad. It'd leave a severe sting in my ass if it where to just vanish after a single round of bolt gun fire...

the reason I don't take death leaper as my warlord is because I'm one of those people who takes 2 Flyrants.

**SBG**

I found myself contemplating the Subterranean Swarm today. The Trygon Prime is overcosted, as is the Trygon, but I think the formation might be a good 'fun' choice. Here's why:

1. One reserve roll for 18 T6 wounds and 3 broods of Raveners (Of whatever size you want).

2. Scatter-free Raveners... that don't have to follow normal DS rules. They are placed by the owning player 'within 6"' of the Trygon Prime.

3. The Mawloc and Trygon can go wherever you like - not limited to the Formation's deployment location.

I'm thinking of running 2 broods of 6, and one of 9. The 9 'naked' raveners would shield the Rending Claw Raveners in the rearmost (closest to the Prime) broods.

Thoughts?

**cyberjonesy**

Sounds fun but ever since the nerf to smash, I think trygons are best left alone. Not like they were really good to begin with anyway.
I like the theme of the army though, raveners are a fun unit to play so I wish you best of luck if you go this route.

**SBG**

Thinking of running a flyrant, 40 gargoyles, and some hormagaunts as well - not brutally effective, but likely quite a surprise to some.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The deep strike manipulation is the real winner for me. Especially if the gargoyles show up at the same time as the Formation.

**barnowl**

jy2 wrote:

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.

**Wilson**

barnowl wrote:
jy2 wrote:

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.

The TO is arguing exactly this aswell.

**jy2**

barnowl wrote:
jy2 wrote:

2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)

2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.

I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.

After re-reading the rules, yes, I would have to agree.

So yes, you can make the Deathleaper to be the Warlord.

It appears the only downside is that he doesn't get the Ideal Mission Commander Command Benefits (in other words, he doesn't get to re-roll his Warlord Trait).