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Well, you could pair Deathleaper with a Nope in a pod. May not lower the entire unit's LD much unless it's a lone model, but it's something to consider.

Zones and Neuros could be devastating against Daemons.

Reducing nearly all their units Ld, and multiple Warp Blasts will do damage to units.

luke1705 wrote:
I was surprised by your math so I did it myself and got a slightly worse number (not sure if you factored in the deny dice or not).

I don't usually factor in deny dice, because I don't know how many deny dice to factor in.

luke1705 wrote:
Let's do some quick math and bypass the casting probability and the denial probability. You hit with 4, fail to glance/pen with .666, glance with .66666, and pen with 2.6666. Those 2.6666 will on average do an extra .888 hull points from an explodes result, netting you a total of 4.22 hull points stripped on average. Even if the knight turns and shields for the next turn, it is still dead in all likelihood. You, on the other hand, are still kicking.

So if we assume it goes off, and assume they fail to deny, you will generally do about 4 Hull points to an imperial Knight. Then the knight will turn towards you and kill 1-3 Zoeys with the battle cannon, and kill another 1-2 in assault. Then on your turn it finishes them off. You can't count on the Knight player not fighting back.

My big objection to your "Throw a bucket of dice" at the warp blast, is that your 5 zoeys give you 2 warp dice. If you've got 2 flyrants that is 6 warp dice. So generally if you throw more than 5 dice at it, you are giving up all of your psychic powers. It is probably worth it. That being said. I don't think squads of 6 zoeys are our answers to Imperial Knights. Flyrants, and Crones are still our best bet.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
As it stands however the Nuenthrope looks pretty unplayable, just like multi-model Zope units

I wouldn't say "unplayable". Just "sub-optimal"

Is there really a difference? There is no point in playing something completely outclassed. Lukes numbers are interesting tho

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hmmm can you try those numbers again with say 8-10 dice? I'm talking really securing the cast.

With 8 Dice you've got a 96.5% chance to manifest.
With 10 you've got essentially a 99% chance to manifest. You've also got good odds of perils, but with 5 zoeys, you can afford that.

I know that I was just wonderingh about the stats after successful manifest. but luke has already covered it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Ah, my mistake. I am not familiar with BAO rules.

I have heard a lot of people talking about them, where can I get them at? I know some people at my store would be interested in trying a more balanced game type.

Here are the Army Comp rules: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/las-vegas-open-hotel-booking/las-vegas-open-2015-warhammer-40k-championships/
Here are the missions: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bao-missions/
Here is the FAQ: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.

With 2 Dice:
LD 7 LD 8 LD 9 LD 10 Nothing 58% 63% 69% 75% Average 1.83 1.41 1.04 0.73

With 3 Dice:
LD 7 LD 8 LD 9 LD 10 Nothing 51% 57% 64% 71% Average 2.14 1.65 1.22 0.85

It is effective, but not that effective. Most of the time you are going to have to spend 2 dice, but you get 1 back. Warp Blast being WC 2 is still the problem.

Can you explain the results? Having trouble working them out.

!!!NEWS FLASH!!!


TYRANIDS WIN THEIR VERY 1ST MAJOR GT!!!


Sean Nayden won Best General at the 11th Company GT. What did he win it with? Deathleaper, Lictors and the Assassin's Brood formation.

His list (he actually spoke about it here in this thread):

 jy2 wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:
What do you guys think of this 1850pt list:


Hive Tyrant – wings, 2x twin linked devourer, electroshox grubs

Hive Tyrant – wings, 2x twin linked devourer, electroshox grubs -

Lictor –

Lictor –

Lictor –

3 Ripper Swarms – deepstrike –

5 Genestealers –

5 Genestealers –

5 Genestealers –

5 Spore mines –

5 Spore Mines –

4 Sporemines –

Mawloc -

Mawloc –

Mawloc -

Death leaper assassin formation
Death Leaper

Lictor

Lictor -

Lictor

Lictor -

Lictor -

Bastion – commms relay -

Whoa....talk about MSU to the extreme.

I think that it is too much potatoes (infiltrating units) and not enough meat (actual, offensive units). Good luck trying to infiltrate all those units in any type of deployment that makes sense.

Hey Sean,

If you read this, we'd love to hear about your matchups at the 11th Company GT. Congrats, man!


---------------------------------------------------------------


In other news, I finally finish my Deathleaper Assassin's Brood battle report:


1275 Hive Fleet Pandora with Deathleaper Assassin Brood vs the NEW Dark Eldar

Awesome! Congrats to Sean!

What kind of missions do they run at that event?

You can find their rules and missions here:

http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/11th-company-gt-2014-t7086.html


BTW, it's quite an impressive feat, as he had to play through 7 rounds in a tournament with 92 players and multiple GT winners.

I wish they'd release plastic Lictors already, I'd be all over a build like that.


I'd love to here some feedback on how he played it.

My guess is that it is a Null Deployment army, with just 2 flyrants on the table and the rest of the army either infiltrating or deepstriking. Against an alpha-strike army who is going 1st, take the flyrants off the table and it's only infiltrators to start off with. Basically, it is a highly reactive army, somewhat similar to the way that I play.

Isnt it basically a better psychic shriek?

How is that unplayable?

 jy2 wrote:
You can find their rules and missions here:

http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/11th-company-gt-2014-t7086.html


BTW, it's quite an impressive feat, as he had to play through 7 rounds in a tournament with 92 players and multiple GT winners.

They had poor attendance. Less than 56 players, and so they dropped it to 6 rounds. Still very impressive, especially with that list.

Psychic Shriek is AoE and is a free roll and doesn't force you into taking 3 Zopes, but I'd say that the are both pretty bad.


Nenthrope is obviously an upgrade worth taking if you have 3+ Zopes in a squad, but I'm not sure if that's something you want to do. It's a lot of points to dedicate.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
You can find their rules and missions here:

http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/11th-company-gt-2014-t7086.html


BTW, it's quite an impressive feat, as he had to play through 7 rounds in a tournament with 92 players and multiple GT winners.

They had poor attendance. Less than 56 players, and so they dropped it to 6 rounds. Still very impressive, especially with that list.

I see.

Still I am impressed. I've had 3 games with my Deathleaper Assassin's Brood and in all 3, they didn't do very much. Lol.

counter meta vs invisible deathstars i'm assuming? i'd really like to see those games too.

 SHUPPET wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.

With 2 Dice:
LD 7 LD 8 LD 9 LD 10 Nothing 58% 63% 69% 75% Average 1.83 1.41 1.04 0.73

With 3 Dice:
LD 7 LD 8 LD 9 LD 10 Nothing 51% 57% 64% 71% Average 2.14 1.65 1.22 0.85

Can you explain the results? Having trouble working them out.

Sure. With 2 Dice, the chance of successfully manifesting is 3/4
A Zoey or Nuro is BS:4 so they are hitting 2/3 of the time.
As far as wounding, I had to enumerate all possible combinations of 3 dice. I then summed up each combination, and calculated the number of wounds done. Then I count the number of combinations that do more than 0 wounds, and divide by the total number of combinations (216)

Odds of doing nothing = 1 - (chance to Manifest * chance to hit * chance to wound)

For calculating the average wounds, it was a bit easier. I did the enumeration above, and just average the number of wounds done (Including the combinations that result in 0 wounds).
Average wounds = Average Wounds * chance to manifest * chance to hit

So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.

 gigasnail wrote:
counter meta vs invisible deathstars i'm assuming? i'd really like to see those games too.

I watched the forge the narrative day 1 report right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhEwAVDT3qo

They are running down the armies they've played. Wave Serpent Spam. Ad Lance + Wraith Knights. Wave Serpent Spam. Ad Lance + Venom Spam. Wave Serpent + Venom Spam, Venom Spam, Wave Serpent Spam. Necron AV13 wall.

I'm not clear how he dealt with Knights. I guess just stayed away, and made the knights chase him around, killing one unit at a time.

I thought psychic shriek was the primaris for telepathy? I know plenty of people that love that power.

Its great for drawing out dice as well as getting a lucky roll can completely change your game plan. Combined with shadows got a good chance of messing up some psykers.

Oh I'm talking about Scream, the Nids power.



There's no real reason to compare it in a vacuum to something that we have no access to unless the units between both dexes we took them on were a carbon copy of each other. Otherwise, you have to compare the unit as a whole.



Ahriman + 4x PShrieks
Flyrant + (1/6+1/5) PScream
2-5 Zopes/1Nope + Tyrannocyte + 1x Spirit Leech



just as an example of what is being compared, it isn't as easy as comparing Shriek to Spirit Leech

 SHUPPET wrote:
So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.

I was mainly worried that this psychic power was feast or famine. To illustrate that I included the percent when it does nothing. I've seen people that do outcome distribution charts, but I don't know how to do that quickly, so I just do a little table of summary data.

So in that case, 63% of the time it will fail to wound. However the remaining 37% it will wound, and generally it will wound significantly (Average 3.8 wounds in that top 37%). When you average it out over all possible outcomes the average is just 1.41 wounds.

To try to sum it up a bit, while the mean is 1.41 wounds, there is an enormous variance of outcomes with the median outcome being 0 wounds. It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.

Got it got it, thanks for breaking that down for me !

How did OrdoSean handle the Ignore cover from Wave Serpents? I think Im missing something here.....

How about this armylist:

Winged hive, devourers, thorax
Winged hive, devourers, thorax

20 guants
20 guants

1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite

3 zoanthropes + neurothrope upgrade
3 zoanthropes + neurothrope upgrade
1 venomthrope

tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite

Mawloc
Mawloc

Bastion + comm

1850 points

Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How did OrdoSean handle the Ignore cover from Wave Serpents? I think Im missing something here.....

There are a lot of questions about his success with that list haha. I hope he enlightens us because my predominant theory is that GW rigged the tournament to sell more models with their shield of Baal campaign (just kidding Sean, we're all super proud of you!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

How about this armylist:

Winged hive, devourers, thorax
Winged hive, devourers, thorax

20 guants
20 guants

1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite

3 zoanthropes + neurothrope upgrade
3 zoanthropes + neurothrope upgrade
1 venomthrope

tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite

Mawloc
Mawloc

Bastion + comm

1850 points

Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.

I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)

The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)

luke1705 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How did OrdoSean handle the Ignore cover from Wave Serpents? I think Im missing something here.....

There are a lot of questions about his success with that list haha. I hope he enlightens us because my predominant theory is that GW rigged the tournament to sell more models with their shield of Baal campaign (just kidding Sean, we're all super proud of you!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

How about this armylist:

Winged hive, devourers, thorax
Winged hive, devourers, thorax

20 guants
20 guants

1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite
1x Mucolite

3 zoanthropes + neurothrope upgrade
3 zoanthropes + neurothrope upgrade
1 venomthrope

tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite

Mawloc
Mawloc

Bastion + comm

1850 points

Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.

I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)

The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)

Unless I've added his units up wrong I don't think it's unbound.

2 HQ
6 Troops
3 Elite
2 Heavy
1 Fortification
5 Tyrannocytes taking up no slot.

Did you mix up Mucolids and Sporocyst mabye? Mucolid is the troop spore.

I think he's referring to Mucolid's not being able to score objectives, but I wouldnt call that 'technically unbound'.

 Iechine wrote:
I think he's referring to Mucolid's not being able to score objectives, but I wouldnt call that 'technically unbound'.

The two units of gaunts would be obsec though.

I'm quite curious how OrdoSean managed to take out an Admantine Lance formation - he had 2 Flyrants with grubs and some rending Lictors ... no tentaclids or other support - well mawlocs ... kudos to OrdSean but it makes me wonder.