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 Happygrunt wrote:
Friendly reminder that, if rumors are true, this IS being beta tested, so the no flyers and an AV limit ideas may very well show up in the final product.

Need also limits on models with a 2+ save, limits on model with T6+, and just something to prevent screamerstar.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Friendly reminder that, if rumors are true, this IS being beta tested, so the no flyers and an AV limit ideas may very well show up in the final product.

Need also limits on models with a 2+ save, limits on model with T6+, and just something to prevent screamerstar.

I think you need to genuinely read what the original post says.

You have a 600 point list to work from. 1 HQ, 1-2 Troop choices, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Heavy Support, and 0-1 Fast Attack.
That's it. 600 points from any Codex or either of the forces from the Dark Vengeance box.

You then take 1-2 additional Troop choices, 1 Fast Attack Choice, and 1 Elite choice. They all get no upgrades and from the way the wording of the OP describes it, are brought into play over the course of the campaign and not just always there.


So I think talking about how people are going to be doing any of the nonsense builds that you see on the Internet in 600 points when you have a mandatory HQ and a mandatory Troop choice is a bit silly. Especially when considering that many campaign style games would likely call for terrain and fortifications to be part of the scenarios played rather then being part of your army list.

When we talk about upgrades, the model should just be as it comes listed in its profile? No swapping stuff out even if the option is free?

 Medium of Death wrote:
When we talk about upgrades, the model should just be as it comes listed in its profile? No swapping stuff out even if the option is free?

I think, RAW, that's what "no upgrades" means, however I don't think anyone would have an issue with taking the "free" upgrades.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

But they won't be allowed, as it specifically excludes those from the available items from the FoC.

And the quick answer is 0. I do not know of a single D-STR weapon that could be fielded with the tax at 600 points.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

But they won't be allowed, as it specifically excludes those from the available items from the FoC.

And the quick answer is 0. I do not know of a single D-STR weapon that could be fielded with the tax at 600 points.

Coteaz, 50 points of Henchmen, and a Shadowsword.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

But they won't be allowed, as it specifically excludes those from the available items from the FoC.

And the quick answer is 0. I do not know of a single D-STR weapon that could be fielded with the tax at 600 points.

Coteaz, 50 points of Henchmen, and a Shadowsword.

Can't do it, the campaign FOC doesn't have a Lord of War slot.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if your power listing at a fun new guy focused global campaign. You are probably a main contributor to some psychiatrist's children being put through an Ivy League school. Just saying is all...

Seeing as per the rumors it is a campaign of sorts. I can not see the driving hunger to destroy all that you come against at all costs really all that worth it if nothing is to be actually gained.
That being said flyer and MC spam (if that is possible) at 600pts could be extremely unfair. Whether it is achieved by accident or intention. So hopefully the play testers establish that problem in the testing phase. An hopefully some of the group are a little more ruthlessly minded so that the issue is discovered instead of a group of gamers with certain unspoken house rules in place already preventing them from noticing this potential issue.

The internet 40k community already noticing this issue I think says a lot about it.

Other than necrons...I don't really see how anyone is spamming flyers with a 0-1 Heavy choice. Most uber/best flyers are heavy choices and you only get one heavy choice period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I welcome this event if it is done well. I don't quite think it will be as great as the Armageddon 3 campaign or the EoT campaign...but at least it's something interactive with the global community though.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Other than necrons...I don't really see how anyone is spamming flyers with a 0-1 Heavy choice. Most uber/best flyers are heavy choices and you only get one heavy choice period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I welcome this event if it is done well. I don't quite think it will be as great as the Armageddon 3 campaign or the EoT campaign...but at least it's something interactive with the global community though.

Well, Tau can get 2 Riptides, Skyray, Fireblade and Fire Warriors in 600pts, and with the additional free stuff a third Riptide, a Sun Shark Bomber, and 20 Kroot. A perfectly fluffy army that fits the theme and background. Granted it'll table 99.8% of people at GW stores, but that's fluffy too because the Riptides win in every short story I've read.

I'm a fan of people getting together and playing more than usual. It's funny you mention the EoT campaign in which people were submitting hundreds of fake battle reports of Imperium losing in order to get the plot line moving.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Seeing as per the rumors it is a campaign of sorts. I can not see the driving hunger to destroy all that you come against at all costs really all that worth it if nothing is to be actually gained.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't actually play such a list at such an event, but there's nothing preventing someone from doing so, as far as we know.

Well, Tau can get 2 Riptides, Skyray, Fireblade and Fire Warriors in 600pts

So? You have a pretty easily killable tank on the table and not many fire warriors protecting a fireblade. One thunderfire cannon hidden can cause problems for the firewarriors. I don't think that it would be that bad.

and with the additional free stuff a third Riptide, a Sun Shark Bomber, and 20 Kroot.

All of which has zero upgrades. Kroot not having sniper rounds kind of hurts...as well as no upgrades on the 3rd riptide.

A perfectly fluffy army that fits the theme and background. Granted it'll table 99.8% of people at GW stores,

I'm a fan of people getting together and playing more than usual. It's funny you mention the EoT campaign in which people were submitting hundreds of fake battle reports of Imperium losing in order to get the plot line moving.

I don't care if people cheated to get the plot moving. The interactivity of the website, the missions, the regions/ theater of war and international teamwork is what made that campaign compelling...not the results.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

Well, Tau can get 2 Riptides, Skyray, Fireblade and Fire Warriors in 600pts

So? You have a pretty easily killable tank on the table and not many fire warriors protecting a fireblade. One thunderfire cannon hidden can cause problems for the firewarriors. I don't think that it would be that bad.

and with the additional free stuff a third Riptide, a Sun Shark Bomber, and 20 Kroot.

All of which has zero upgrades. Kroot not having sniper rounds kind of hurts...as well as no upgrades on the 3rd riptide.

A perfectly fluffy army that fits the theme and background. Granted it'll table 99.8% of people at GW stores,

I'm a fan of people getting together and playing more than usual. It's funny you mention the EoT campaign in which people were submitting hundreds of fake battle reports of Imperium losing in order to get the plot line moving.

I don't care if people cheated to get the plot moving. The interactivity of the website, the missions, the regions/ theater of war and international teamwork is what made that campaign compelling...not the results.

If 3 Riptides in a game with a 600 pt detachment + couple free stuff units is not a problem for you I'm not sure what the people are whining about in 1.85K and 2K pts games. Calling Riptides and an AV13 tank pretty easily killable is funny. Regarding the upgrades, Riptides don't need any. Nothing in the list needs any upgrades. As far as the Fireblade and Fire Warriors go, they won't even be on the table as they'll just hide in reserve.

I think you may have experienced EoT in a very different light. To me it seemed like a few random games and thousands of fake battle report submissions. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

If 3 Riptides in a game with a 600 pt detachment + couple free stuff units is not a problem for you I'm not sure what the people are whining about in 1.85K and 2K pts games.

Firstly, we don't even know the details of how the missions are going to be set up as. Secondly, you aren't getting 3 riptides in all your games. So I don't see what the butthurt is about.

Calling Riptides and an AV13 tank pretty easily killable is funny.

I said the tank was easily killable...not the riptides...and if you have problems killing an AV13 tank with only 3 HP...uh...I don't know what to say.

Regarding the upgrades, Riptides don't need any. Nothing in the list needs any upgrades.

Well without decent marker light support. This is just another shooty list that other armies can counter. Meh.

As far as the Fireblade and Fire Warriors go, they won't even be on the table as they'll just hide in reserve.

Yeah, and have a good chance arriving on turn 2 on a 3+. Or even better, how are we to know if you can even reserve units in these campaign missions. Once again, people are jumping to conclusions with no credible information.

I think you may have experienced EoT in a very different light. To me it seemed like a few random games and thousands of fake battle report submissions. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Well I'm sorry that your community treated it as "random" games and you were somehow violated by the "fake" games and it ruined your life or something. Meanwhile, elsewhere, people enjoyed it for the better part of a summer, had fun with the interactivity of the website, had great games and didn't really give a gak about the results..and had a lot of good memories from that campaign.

This sounds neat. I wish there was a Gee-dubs near me so I could get up on this.

 Weltenwolf wrote:
Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

I can remember going to the military base there several times when we lived in Germany. I want to say that was one of the better shopping bases for the US armed forces, but I could be mistaken.

I said the tank was easily killable...not the riptides...and if you have problems killing an AV13 tank with only 3 HP...uh...I don't know what to say.

Which AV13 tank has more than 3 hull points? How many other tanks with comparable firepower and utility at 115 points are AV13? It's an incredible vehicle for the price, and it plays a role in the list.

Post your take on all comers list that so easily defeats the Tau. I think your whole approach of playing down the multiple possible dominant army lists that one can make in 600 points is comical. There's no way to balance 600 point games with so open FOCs. If someone thought the 1.85K meta was in a bad shape, 600p takes it to a whole new level.

Well without decent marker light support. This is just another shooty list that other armies can counter. Meh.

What on earth are you talking about? These aren't battles between armies. These are 600 point skirmishes. Marker light support? Most armies will have about 4 units in total. Taking 'decent marker light support' is a good starting point for building a very bad Tau army in 600 points.

Or even better, how are we to know if you can even reserve units in these campaign missions. Once again, people are jumping to conclusions with no credible information.

Oh yeah I forgot. I shouldn't have assumed the campaign will be played under the rules of 40K. It could very well be a specialist game campaign with a whole new rule set.

Well I'm sorry that your community treated it as "random" games and you were somehow violated by the "fake" games and it ruined your life or something. Meanwhile, elsewhere, people enjoyed it for the better part of a summer, had fun with the interactivity of the website, had great games and didn't really give a gak about the results..and had a lot of good memories from that campaign.

Keep punching that strawman. I have a lot of good memories about playing 40K, considering I've played it for soon 20 years. None of it has anything to do with fake campaigns though.

On another note, like a few German posters pointed out, I can't believe the campaign is called Conquest of Kaiserslautern. It's simply too bush league to be real. Even for GW.

Tinfoil hat time.

Sounds like a great way to sell off your excess 40K starters in the summer. just before you drop the new 6.5 edition of 40K making the box rulebooks invalid so all the new recruits need to fork a big chunk of cash to use their newly acquired toys.

Removes tinfoil hat.

"This bickering is pointless. Now, Lord Vader will provide us with the location of the Rebel fortress by the time this station is operational. We will then crush the Rebellion with one swift stroke."


IT IS STILL IN BETA

I love how we all tear each other apart on Dakka. All these snide remarks and argumentative bs. THIS IS GOOD NEWS. GW is doing something for their community for what seems to be zero profit. WH40k is NOT a tournament style game. It is far too unbalanced and easily broken to be taken so seriously. Exactly how much fun you and your friends allow each other to have while playing with toys is entirely up to you. If you want to be a beardy dick and power game WAAC, then find someone else to play with. I prefer fluffy thematic battles full of narrative provided by the players....or in this case GAMES WORKSHOP.

I repeat, GW is actually doing something for little or no profit strictly for the enjoyment of their players. Sounds too miraculous to be true.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think you need to genuinely read what the original post says.

You have a 600 point list to work from. 1 HQ, 1-2 Troop choices, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Heavy Support, and 0-1 Fast Attack.

Cannot fit some cheap HQ, some cheap troop unit, and a wraithknight at 600 points ? Or 5-ish firewarriors, some cheap HQ, and a riptide ? Or, you know, two Grey Knight terminator squads as troop, one unit of paladins for Elite, and some cheap HQ ? Or tyranids with one unit of 10 gaunts, and everything else used to buy T6 monstrous creatures, as those are available in every slot except FA ?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Coteaz, 50 points of Henchmen, and a Shadowsword.

Thanks !

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say if your power listing at a fun new guy focused global campaign. You are probably a main contributor to some psychiatrist's children being put through an Ivy League school.

I am playing Sisters. I. Cannot. Powerlist !
I am just having fun at imagining broken combos I could not have any fun facing.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
THIS IS GOOD NEWS.

Don't you mean GREAT news?

Brutal name.

I like it.

But will anything we do actually mean anything? From what I've heard, GW will usually look at the results of the campaign, laugh, and then make it out as a stalemate or the Imperium winning.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Brutal name.

I like it.

But will anything we do actually mean anything? From what I've heard, GW will usually look at the results of the campaign, laugh, and then make it out as a stalemate or the Imperium winning.

See, they could just make it a minor system with not huge impact on the story and then the results could be true without mattering!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is perfectly possible to deal with AV14 in a 600 points game, I can do it with my only available troop choice which can brings two melta and a twin-linked multi-melta on the table for some 140 points.

But can you deal with it with redundancy (so they don't just kill your one melta unit immediately) and still be able to deal with a green tide list? This is the big problem with small point games that don't have severe restrictions on what units are legal, you can't cover every possible threat effectively with so few points available, so the game is decided by whether your opponent brought the thing you didn't have points to take a counter for. Either you have the right answer and you probably win, or you don't and you get massacred with little hope of fighting back.

xruslanx wrote:
Pergrine you have been told on several occasions that your WAAC, super-competative mindset in 40k is not usual. Most 40k players, especially those who play at Games Workshop stores, are casual and will be playing a fun game with whatever models they have painted that they think are cool, not spamming the most expensive, most powerful units around.

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Weltenwolf wrote:
Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

I can remember going to the military base there several times when we lived in Germany. I want to say that was one of the better shopping bases for the US armed forces, but I could be mistaken.

I've been to K-Town on more than a few occasions, especially when my High School (Stuttgart) would play them in soccer and football. I think the main shopping experience back then would have been Robinson Barracks (Stuttgart) or Frankfurt and Rhein-Main bases; at least that's where it was at back in my day.

Interesting event nonetheless - would like to see them do more of this kind of stuff in the future.

 Peregrine wrote:
But can you deal with it with redundancy (so they don't just kill your one melta unit immediately)

Yes.

 Peregrine wrote:
and still be able to deal with a green tide list?

No, but I will have the same problem with high AV spam vs greentide at 1500 points too !
That's what skewed lists do.

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

Well it's hardly "casual at all costs" since people will still be playing to win. But people have low-point battles all the time, frankly there's virtually no low-point armies that can't deal with AV 14 (certainly no Imperial army would struggle), and a helldrake is hardly going to ruin the game. Even if it gets lucky and comes in turn 2, assuming the enemy spreads out his troops he'll fry maybe 3 guys per turn, assuming he can get within range of someone every turn. That's 12 dead guys by turn 6, you better hope your enemy is space marines or you'll have basically been wasting your time.

You'd have to put in a fair bit of effort to "break" a game at this point level, any amount of wailing and flapping your arms around by you about how "broken" 40k is won't change that. Yes, you could bring tripple vendettas or dozens of riptides, but everyone there will know you're a dick and the organisers will probably politely ask you to change your list.

The sort of people this is aimed at - almost definitely kids who are new-ish to the hobby - play at GW all the time. I've been in a gw maybe half a dozen times over the past year, which certainly isn't a lot but I definitely can't remember seeing the kids playing battles crying and whinging about OP. They seemed to be having a good time actually.

xruslanx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

Well it's hardly "casual at all costs" since people will still be playing to win. But people have low-point battles all the time, frankly there's virtually no low-point armies that can't deal with AV 14 (certainly no Imperial army would struggle), and a helldrake is hardly going to ruin the game. Even if it gets lucky and comes in turn 2, assuming the enemy spreads out his troops he'll fry maybe 3 guys per turn, assuming he can get within range of someone every turn. That's 12 dead guys by turn 6, you better hope your enemy is space marines or you'll have basically been wasting your time.

AV14 would need a 4 to glance or 5+ to pen with a Lascannon, 5/6 with an autocannon or missile launcher, and is impervious to pretty much anything else a heavy weapons team/marine can use. Assuming 1 heavy weapon per squad and a 2 squad limit, and assuming you split your heavy weapons between firepower and rate of fire, you may only have 1 33% chance of glancing it per turn. Ok you can use things like meltas or powerfists, but they require you to get close without getting wiped out.

You'd have to put in a fair bit of effort to "break" a game at this point level, any amount of wailing and flapping your arms around by you about how "broken" 40k is won't change that. Yes, you could bring tripple vendettas or dozens of riptides, but everyone there will know you're a dick and the organisers will probably politely ask you to change your list.

All of the examples above show just how easy it is to break a 600pt game without any effort. I haven't tried to make up a 600pt list in a while, but I imagine one that stands a reasonable chance against any opponent will be difficult if you're not going for Marines with Terminators (for the PF and 2+/5++ save).

Herzlos wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

Well it's hardly "casual at all costs" since people will still be playing to win. But people have low-point battles all the time, frankly there's virtually no low-point armies that can't deal with AV 14 (certainly no Imperial army would struggle), and a helldrake is hardly going to ruin the game. Even if it gets lucky and comes in turn 2, assuming the enemy spreads out his troops he'll fry maybe 3 guys per turn, assuming he can get within range of someone every turn. That's 12 dead guys by turn 6, you better hope your enemy is space marines or you'll have basically been wasting your time.

AV14 would need a 4 to glance or 5+ to pen with a Lascannon, 5/6 with an autocannon or missile launcher, and is impervious to pretty much anything else a heavy weapons team/marine can use. Assuming 1 heavy weapon per squad and a 2 squad limit, and assuming you split your heavy weapons between firepower and rate of fire, you may only have 1 33% chance of glancing it per turn. Ok you can use things like meltas or powerfists, but they require you to get close without getting wiped out.

Autocannons are S7 unless you're Grey Knights.

I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.