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They misspelled Kranon's name with two n's instead of one.

I guess this takes place before the Dark Angels finally managed to kill him or something.

 filbert wrote:
I think someone at Nottingham HQ was watching the Bundesliga highlights on ITV4 and something has stuck subconsciously...

Damn you for beating me to that!

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

A guard player should be rocking a fair few meltaguns even at 600 points, since lascannons only have a one in thirty six chance of popping av14. Assuming that a 600 point guard army wont bring melta guns makes as much sense as assuming they'll bring a penal legionaire horde.

*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Tinfoil hat time.

Sounds like a great way to sell off your excess 40K starters in the summer. just before you drop the new 6.5 edition of 40K making the box rulebooks invalid so all the new recruits need to fork a big chunk of cash to use their newly acquired toys.

Removes tinfoil hat.

This guy... this guy talks sense

Herzlos wrote:
*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

You need to be under six inches to be effective with a melta gun really.

And yes, a newbie won't know how to counter av 14 very well. That's because they're new, being bad at something you're new at is not unique to 40k now is it?

 Bull0 wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Tinfoil hat time.

Sounds like a great way to sell off your excess 40K starters in the summer. just before you drop the new 6.5 edition of 40K making the box rulebooks invalid so all the new recruits need to fork a big chunk of cash to use their newly acquired toys.

Removes tinfoil hat.

This guy... this guy talks sense

Verily. The idea is twisted in a beautiful way.

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

Demolisher Cannons could work, though. S10 AP2 Ordnance Large Blast could do a number on AV14 and hordes alike, especially if people aren't spacing their models properly.

xruslanx wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

You need to be under six inches to be effective with a melta gun really.

And yes, a newbie won't know how to counter av 14 very well. That's because they're new, being bad at something you're new at is not unique to 40k now is it?

Ok, you need to be within 6", so the chances of taking out an AV14 is pretty difficult.

And since this campaign is aimed at new players, surely in the interest of fairness you'd want to try and eliminate anything that gives them a frustrating exercise in futility?

Say little timmy buys a LR battle tank because it's cool, but none of his friends have anything that can counter it in a game, how long before they start getting bored?

So no upgrades would stop you increasing squad size too you know as extra guys are an upgrade.

Heldrake as standard comes with a hades autoannon not baleflamer too so only ever worry about one of these.

Sreamerstar costs way too much for 600 points.

I know I would welcome this even if it has a campaign supplement to it. Who knows there could be rules on the way for competitive gaming?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

Demolisher Cannons could work, though. S10 AP2 Ordnance Large Blast could do a number on AV14 and hordes alike, especially if people aren't spacing their models properly.

So would battle cannons, despite being S8 (though double AP roll?), but you're looking at committing almost 1/3rd of your points, and then you run the opposite position where the orc player will struggle to deal with you. Capping it at AV10/11 would be better, as then almost everything can glance it to death.

Herzlos wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

Demolisher Cannons could work, though. S10 AP2 Ordnance Large Blast could do a number on AV14 and hordes alike, especially if people aren't spacing their models properly.

So would battle cannons, despite being S8 (though double AP roll?), but you're looking at committing almost 1/3rd of your points, and then you run the opposite position where the orc player will struggle to deal with you. Capping it at AV10/11 would be better, as then almost everything can glance it to death.

How about capping it at something like AV12 so guard can still bring vehicles.

Chimera chassis are only AV11? or are they 12?

It'd probably be fairer to just say infantry only.

Herzlos wrote:

Say little timmy buys a LR battle tank because it's cool, but none of his friends have anything that can counter it in a game, how long before they start getting bored?

Then GW counts it as a win, say 4 kids have bought enough to start playing, Timmy has bought at least a Land Raider on top of that, and convinced he is a wargaming god due to roflstomping all his friends, has perhaps splurged an annual festivity's worth of presents too.

Small boys are grist to GW's mill, and they treat them like guardsmen in a siege, trying to think like a conventional business that wants to develop loyalty and a long term relationship just doesn't line up with the way they're operating right now.

Kaiserslautern VI? Must be in the same system with Wien IV, Langen III, and Bayern München FV.

It's not one of the Premiere Leagues of systems...

Which AV13 tank has more than 3 hull points? How many other tanks with comparable firepower and utility at 115 points are AV13? It's an incredible vehicle for the price, and it plays a role in the list.

Predators? Exorcists? I'm not disputing it's utility. I'm saying one tank is easy to silence. You seem to be missing that point. It's not like someone else couldn't figure out how to spend 600pts...and in said 600pts add some stuff to deal with one AV13 tank.

Post your take on all comers list that so easily defeats the Tau. I think your whole approach of playing down the multiple possible dominant army lists that one can make in 600 points is comical.

This is where your whole internet rage, etc. falls flat...you are assuming everyone and their mom is going to rush out and build 600pt Tau armies of doom. Meanwhile, the level headed sane people are looking at it as an opportunity to play some small games with strange FoC restictions...and THAT'S IT. Nobody is going to be running tournament lists...or treating this like a win, or die type thing...and if they are...they will be hard pressed to find opponents. Lastly, who said anything about "so easily defeating Tau"? All I said was taking out a single Skyray isn't a big deal. You are the one putting words in my mouth. As for 2 riptides? Who cares? You think Tau are the only army that can field stupid gak at 600pts? The bottom line is: This is something GW hasn't done for the community in a while, and while you want to go and throw a hate parade on gak you haven't even seen yet..all the while missing the big picture of: it's in BETA test stage...then waste your time somewhere else.

There's no way to balance 600 point games with so open FOCs. If someone thought the 1.85K meta was in a bad shape, 600p takes it to a whole new level.

This is the acceptance part you miss...there is no balance in this game at any points level. The sooner you understand that...the sooner you can relax and either A.) enjoy the damn game as is. Or B.) not play.

What on earth are you talking about? These aren't battles between armies. These are 600 point skirmishes.

Yes. Which means Riptides aren't nearly as scary since their main guns aren't suddenly bouncing your cover save...nor are they suddenly BS5+

Marker light support? Most armies will have about 4 units in total. Taking 'decent marker light support' is a good starting point for building a very bad Tau army in 600 points.

Marker light support is what really makes the Riptide a feared unit. Or a buff command joined to one. Either way a base level Riptide is more manageable than one that has marker light support. Most armies will have 4 units in total? Really? It's more like 5-6...possibly even more depending on how MSU you want your troops...or even what HQ you are selecting at 600pts.

Oh yeah I forgot. I shouldn't have assumed the campaign will be played under the rules of 40K. It could very well be a specialist game campaign with a whole new rule set.

Why does this seem like a foreign idea that certain mission special rules may be omitted. Hell, the damn FoC isn't a standard one. So if that's the case, how is not having certain mission rules not be used such a stretch? Like I said, you we know nothing of how the missions will be played or how it will be run...other than the modified FoC.

Keep punching that strawman. I have a lot of good memories about playing 40K, considering I've played it for soon 20 years. None of it has anything to do with fake campaigns though.

What strawman? LOL. You yourself have said the EoT was nothing but a bunch of random games and fake battle report submissions. I disagreed with that statement, but where's the straw man argument I presented? If you want to argue on the merits of playing time..like that somehow makes what you say more important (argument from authority fallacy anyone?) buddy I got you beat. I've been playing this game since it's creation...but who cares, right?

On another note, like a few German posters pointed out, I can't believe the campaign is called Conquest of Kaiserslautern. It's simply too bush league to be real. Even for GW.

Well unless you live, or lived in germany...not many people are aware that it's an actual place IN germany. That's like saying if they made a campaign called: Conquest of Waukesha...that the people of Waukesha, Wisconsin will suddenly be picketing outside of GW headquarters demanding a name change. Who cares what the name is(or will be). It's such a trivial thing to be pissed about..if anything consider it flattering that they've used a name from a very prominent EU country. Meh.

Herzlos wrote:
Chimera chassis are only AV11? or are they 12?

It'd probably be fairer to just say infantry only.

Maybe, but the DV starter set comes with a Helbrute. If this is meant to include everything in the starter set I don't think that they will cap armor.

DA can't use the limited edition chaplain -- why is that, exactly? -- so I guess there is something of a precedent.

DA can't use the limited edition chaplain -- why is that, exactly? -- so I guess there is something of a precedent.

Are Dark Angel Chaplains HQ choices? It's been a long time since I've looked through that codex. If it is, that is probably why as the DV boxed set already comes with 2 HQs. Dunno.

 d-usa wrote:
It's not one of the Premiere Leagues of systems...

More like district league, where the volunteer referee earns more than the players.

I guess the restriction on the Chaplain is to keep a rough balance in the DV kit itself. The Dark Angels already number more points than Chaos without the Chaplain and probably go far over 600 if he is included.

The weird restrictions on upgrades are very strange, but it doesnt have upgrade restrictions on the first 600 points as far as I can see. Which means my Heldrake alone can eat the people using the starter kits for breakfast, not a very good idea. Hopefully they will get a clear set of rules from the beta.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

DA can't use the limited edition chaplain -- why is that, exactly? -- so I guess there is something of a precedent.

Are Dark Angel Chaplains HQ choices? It's been a long time since I've looked through that codex. If it is, that is probably why as the DV boxed set already comes with 2 HQs. Dunno.

Yes, they're HQs.

Herzlos wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

You need to be under six inches to be effective with a melta gun really.

And yes, a newbie won't know how to counter av 14 very well. That's because they're new, being bad at something you're new at is not unique to 40k now is it?

Ok, you need to be within 6", so the chances of taking out an AV14 is pretty difficult.

And since this campaign is aimed at new players, surely in the interest of fairness you'd want to try and eliminate anything that gives them a frustrating exercise in futility?

Say little timmy buys a LR battle tank because it's cool, but none of his friends have anything that can counter it in a game, how long before they start getting bored?

Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever. Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples. I have already explained why the Helldrake would not be breaking (unless your opponent is running an un-meched MEQ army that likes to stand around in clusters), and Leman Russes (as above). I wouldn't say that you *can't* break it, since I have no idea how a good chunk of some xeno armies work. I know that you can't get re-rollable 2++ from deamons because there aren't enough points, though I know that eldar/dark eldar do have access to such shinanigans. Can they do so at that point level?

 Therion wrote:
On another note, like a few German posters pointed out, I can't believe the campaign is called Conquest of Kaiserslautern. It's simply too bush league to be real. Even for GW.

Well, I remember a campaign from GW Germany where one of the hive worlds was called "Dortamunda". But they may change the name in Germany, like they did with Mordheim or Zahndrekh (the latter may be a case for the daemon Zahnarzt ).

xruslanx wrote:
Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever.

Yes, and people who aren't GW have figured out how to make special low-point rules (combat patrol, for example) that fix the problem. There is no excuse for GW failing to do the same.

Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

You clearly have no idea how WAAC players think. This kind of event is the perfect opportunity for them: lots of "casual" players/lists, and rules that limit what their opponents can do to stop them. And you're still ignoring the fact that people can play lists that are too powerful in a 600 point game because they're "fun" or "fluffy" or whatever.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

And you clearly have no idea how IG works. First of all, you're not taking basic LRBTs since they suck. You're taking 1-2 of the good variants and 1-2 Vendettas with scoring units. I've played lists like that in low-point games because I love tanks and hate infantry, and my opponents struggled to do anything besides get tabled.

Also, yes, it has counters. But the whole point is it turns the game into a rock/paper/scissors match where the most important factor in your chances of winning is whether your opponent brought the list you couldn't afford to counter at 600 points.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples.

Those examples have already been provided. You just don't have any clue about how they work, or how badly the average "casual" player is going to get massacred against them. Not that this is really any surprise given your laughable ignorance about anything related to game design, and your bizarre belief that playing a non-GW game is like having sex with your dog.

I've played in all the 40k Summer campaigns: Armageddon, Medusa, and Black Crusades.

Every time it was horribly easy to skew the result entries, so I dearly dearly hope they fixed this. It's amazing how fast you stop caring about something when you know there's a large group of people cheating it.

xruslanx wrote:

Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever. Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

The game being horribly broken at 600 points is kind of the point of the discussion. You also seem to be of the belief that anyone bringing something overpowered is doing it to be WAAC and should be banned, that there's this gentlemans agreement not to bring anything good to a campaign. But you're glossing over the fact that 1. if you need the agreement between players, there's something wrong and it should be codified in the campaign rules and 2. That the players may not know that what they've got it overpowered; there are plenty of things a player could bring because they were convinced to buy it that'll result in an unbalance that means their opponent may as well not bother unpacking.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

Against a tailored list, maybe, but against a group of new players based of the DV set? I don't know. If it can only be hurt by the missile launcher marine and the Deathwing terminators in the DA set, then it could cause a lot of problems. Battle cannon will do nasty things to almost everything (It's AP3 so no saves for the marines, and large blast ordinance, so does something on a 6 and may ignore cover? I'm not familiar with those rules) whilst needing flanked or assaulted to get damaged. That's assuming that they are playing the DA list. If they brought along guard without a tank, or orcs, they'd have an even worse time of it.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples. I have already explained why the Helldrake would not be breaking (unless your opponent is running an un-meched MEQ army that likes to stand around in clusters), and Leman Russes (as above). I wouldn't say that you *can't* break it, since I have no idea how a good chunk of some xeno armies work. I know that you can't get re-rollable 2++ from deamons because there aren't enough points, though I know that eldar/dark eldar do have access to such shinanigans. Can they do so at that point level?

This whole conversation is people pointing out obvious examples of allowed but broken lists and you claiming that they are easily countered if you happen to tailor a list to counter them. What's wrong with accepting that there may be breakable combinations without it being the players fault?

Considering that nobody should know what other players are bringing to the table nixes the "I'll just build X list to counter Y list".

Herzlos wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever. Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

The game being horribly broken at 600 points is kind of the point of the discussion. You also seem to be of the belief that anyone bringing something overpowered is doing it to be WAAC and should be banned, that there's this gentlemans agreement not to bring anything good to a campaign. But you're glossing over the fact that 1. if you need the agreement between players, there's something wrong and it should be codified in the campaign rules and 2. That the players may not know that what they've got it overpowered; there are plenty of things a player could bring because they were convinced to buy it that'll result in an unbalance that means their opponent may as well not bother unpacking.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

Against a tailored list, maybe, but against a group of new players based of the DV set? I don't know. If it can only be hurt by the missile launcher marine and the Deathwing terminators in the DA set, then it could cause a lot of problems. Battle cannon will do nasty things to almost everything (It's AP3 so no saves for the marines, and large blast ordinance, so does something on a 6 and may ignore cover? I'm not familiar with those rules) whilst needing flanked or assaulted to get damaged. That's assuming that they are playing the DA list. If they brought along guard without a tank, or orcs, they'd have an even worse time of it.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples. I have already explained why the Helldrake would not be breaking (unless your opponent is running an un-meched MEQ army that likes to stand around in clusters), and Leman Russes (as above). I wouldn't say that you *can't* break it, since I have no idea how a good chunk of some xeno armies work. I know that you can't get re-rollable 2++ from deamons because there aren't enough points, though I know that eldar/dark eldar do have access to such shinanigans. Can they do so at that point level?

This whole conversation is people pointing out obvious examples of allowed but broken lists and you claiming that they are easily countered if you happen to tailor a list to counter them. What's wrong with accepting that there may be breakable combinations without it being the players fault?

If you think that Leman Russes are op because they're ap3, I don't think you've played much with or against them. They will miss more often than they hit unless the opponent is clumped up, and cover saves abound. There is nothing whatsoever that is op about them, at any point level.

So once again, any more examples of "broken" combinations at this point level?

I never said they are OP. I said that they may break a 600pt starter game, because they may be very hard for a starter army to deal with, being AV 14 and AP3 Ordinance Large Blast with Lumbering Behemoth. They don't miss that badly that often due to the large blast part.

Any examples beyond those already mentioned? Not really, I'm not familiar with Xenos, but I'd imagine Centurions, flyers, any vehicle above AV11, Monsterous Creatures, 250pt+ characters (like Mephiston?, with 2+/3++ FNP and a psychic level of 3) will all prove difficult for a starter army to deal with. All can be countered by experienced players with tailored lists but 1. We're not talking about experienced players and 2. We're not talking about tailored lists.

Anyway, trying to drag it back onto topic. Properly organised low level beginner targetted escalation campaign - brilliant idea. As long as they do something to avoid the accidental imbalance at 600pts.