Karandras vs. Swarmlord

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**Sir Arun**

Would the Swarmlord mop the floor with Karandras even if the latter got the charge?

**obsidiankatana**

Probably.

**Niiai**

It depends. They both wound on 2+. Karandras has ethernal warrior but the phoenix lords powerfist go last. The Swarmlord has an invonerable save. It looks bad for mr phoenix. It would be far superio to shoot the swarm lord and then use karanadras vs something else, like a tervigon.

**Gangrel767**

Niiai wrote:
It depends. They both wound on 2+. Karandras has ethernal warrior but the phoenix lords powerfist go last. The Swarmlord has an invonerable save. It looks bad for mr phoenix. It would be far superio to shoot the swarm lord and then use karanadras vs something else, like a tervigon.

Scorpions claw does not have unwieldy.

**DaddyWarcrimes**

Karadras swings his fist at I7. It's not unwieldy. That means Swarmlord takes a S6 hit at I10, followed by 6 S8 swings at I7, all rerolling to wound. If Swarmy lives through that, he gets to take his 5 Preferred Enemy attacks back.

Karandras has a chance at killing Swarmy outright before the tyranid gets to even swing If Swarmy lives to swing back, he's probably going to kill Karandras with his 5 S6 Preferred Enemy attacks back,

**Nate668**

Karandras would strike first. A Scorpion's Claw isn't unwieldy. Let's do the math.

Karandras charges, as the OP says. He has The Scorpion's Bite which does 1 automatic S6 hit. Againts the Swarmlord, this will do 0.25 wounds on average. He has 6 attacks with Monster Hunter, and he hits the Swarmlord on 4's. This means that on average, Karandras will hit 3 times, wound 2.92 times, dealing 1.46 wounds on average. In total, he does an average of 1.71 wounds on the charge.

The Swarmlord now strikes back. He hits on 3's with 5 attacks, so he does an average of 3.33 hits and 2.77 wounds which ignore Karandras's armor. This doesn't even take into account the fact that the Swarmlord can grant himself preferred enemy for a turn, which would bring his average number of wounds caused up to 3.78 per turn. This ALSO doesn't take into account the fact that the Swarmlord has a 50% chance to have a psychic power that grants FnP.

In short, Karandras doesn't stand a chance unless the Swarmlord is down to 1-2 wounds or so. The Swarmlord will kill him in one round on average.

EDIT: forgot The Scorpion's Bite.

**SaintofDaemons**

Yea, the Scorpion's claw goes at normally his initiative not initiative one. Powerfist's have the unwieldy special rule while the Scorpion's claw does not. If the swarmlord is missing some wounds I may have to give it to karandras but otherwise it will be a really close fight now that the swarmlord doesn't have access to biomancy. If the Swarmlord still had access to biomancy I would probably have to give it too him

**Sir Arun**

Karandras seems sorta like a waste, then? I mean he's overkill in most places and is costly, but cant hold up to the costly enemy CC-guys.

Not sure whether the Swarmlord is costlier than Karandras.

**DaddyWarcrimes**

Swarmlord is way more expensive. Karandras is actually terrible at fighting other big combat characters, much like normal hive tyrants, because he has no invulnerable save.

**Nate668**

The Swarmlord is 285 points and Karandras is 230. As to whether or not he's worth it I'm not sure, but he definitely isn't cut out to fight the Swarmlord on fair terms.

**Gangrel767**

Karandras could have a use in a dire avenger squad which has the 5+ invulnerable. Otherwise Asurman and or Fuegan is better in one offs against characters

**DaddyWarcrimes**

Even Eldrad is better at fighting other characters than any of the Phoenix Lords. Fuegan and Karandras hit like trucks, but all the phoenix lords have glass jaws.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Well depending on who you play with, he can grant infiltration to his unit. I know RAW it doesn't strictly work but that's how my group thinks it should. Karandras lacks an Invul save, so of course the Swarmlord wins. Swrmlor vs Asurman might be a better fight but that would be dependent on Warlord traits. But don't knock Karandras until you try him against what he is meant to fight against, low invul multi wound T 4 models or no invul MC's. I still smile when I remember the time my opponent let him get to close to his Paladins, 4 Guys dead in one turn and 3 the next, Harlies handled the rest. Ah, good times.

**Niiai**

I think you need to rethink your startegy of an epic duel.

Kasandra has a role in an eldar army, but things like the swarmlord is better delt with shruken cannons rending him to bits. Use kasandra on other things.

**obsidiankatana**

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Even Eldrad is better at fighting other characters than any of the Phoenix Lords. Fuegan and Karandras hit like trucks, but all the phoenix lords have glass jaws.

Asurmen would like a word with you.

**greyknight12**

Before the new Tyranid codex, the swarmlord was one of (if not the best) 1-on-1 close combat character in regular 40K. After the new codex, he no longer has access to BRB powers but will still wipe the floor with a most Eldar characters.

The main keys to an effective duelist are:
1. AP2 weapon
2. Good invulnerable save
3. Eternal Warrior
4. Ability to inflict instant death.

Other useful items are re-rolls, number of attacks, and high initiative.

**DaddyWarcrimes**

When Asurmen can make his normal attacks with his 3++, and has a chance being able to reroll that 3++, then he will have something to say.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

I have to say on 2 seperate occasions Eldrad has killed the Swarmlord, once against the new book once with the old. Both times with Fortune, stepped up to the plate even with the old swarmlord cancelling out his re-rolls he made his saves and hit once, wounded and passed force check. Then against my Eldrad has ridiculous luck in combat, having killed an Avatar, Bloodthirster, Dreadknights and Wraithknight to name a few. He is by FAR the best combat character i use, and i use Vect

**Sir Arun**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I have to say on 2 seperate occasions Eldrad has killed the Swarmlord, once against the new book once with the old. Both times with Fortune, stepped up to the plate even with the old swarmlord cancelling out his re-rolls he made his saves and hit once, wounded and passed force check. Then against my Eldrad has ridiculous luck in combat, having killed an Avatar, Bloodthirster, Dreadknights and Wraithknight to name a few. He is by FAR the best combat character i use, and i use Vect

Are you using Eldrad with Death Mission?

**herpguy**

The problem is that without an invul save his 2+ usually doesn't mean much against any high powered character. He will mulch squads of most anything, but every faction besides Tau (and maybe DE) has character(s) that will completely annihilate him.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Sir Arun wrote:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I have to say on 2 seperate occasions Eldrad has killed the Swarmlord, once against the new book once with the old. Both times with Fortune, stepped up to the plate even with the old swarmlord cancelling out his re-rolls he made his saves and hit once, wounded and passed force check. Then against my Eldrad has ridiculous luck in combat, having killed an Avatar, Bloodthirster, Dreadknights and Wraithknight to name a few. He is by FAR the best combat character i use, and i use Vect

Are you using Eldrad with Death Mission?

Hell no

But Prescience and wounding on 2's goes a long way with a force weapon, not to mention my Eldrad is ridiculously lucky and forces others to be unlucky. My Eldrad survived 2, Yes, 2, strength D shots. Eldrad rules

**McNinja**

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Swarmlord is way more expensive. Karandras is actually terrible at fighting other big combat characters, much like normal hive tyrants, because he has no invulnerable save.

Nate668 wrote:The Swarmlord is 285 points and Karandras is 230. As to whether or not he's worth it I'm not sure, but he definitely isn't cut out to fight the Swarmlord on fair terms.

Which is why you don't throw him against combat characters.

The only combat-oriented character i would throw Karandras at is a Space Marine captain or CM without EW. Other than that, I'll stick to assaulting Riptides and other units that are awful in CC.

Shoot the assaulters, assault the shooters.

**majendie**

Anyone want to do the same math on Asurmen vs Swarmlord? Don't have my codices handy at work :(

**Sir Arun**

How is Asurmen better? He always gets the charge bonus but is S5, meaning he will wound the Swarmlord only on a 5+ and none of them are re-rollable, and for his Insta Kill to work the Swarmlord still has to fail its LD10 check. Sure, Asurmen has a 4+ inv save and Shield of Grace is only a waste as it reduces his attacks.

**Sir Arun**

has the new swarmlord been nerfed?

**Niiai**

Yes he has been nerfed quite hard meaning he can not kill everything else save a primarc any more. I would stil recomend anyone who faces him to shoot him though. Never ever fight him in melee.

**Jancoran**

have you tried Asurman? He's a beast.

**Sir Arun**

so youre saying wounding on 5+ (and insta-kill if he fails his LD10 check) and having a 4+ inv is better than wounding on 2+ but having no inv.?

**soomemafia**

If an I7 Power Fist with 5 attacks and WS7 doesn't make a good fighter, I don't know what does. If nothing else, he laughs all T4 characters off the board.

**Dozer Blades**

If the Swarmlord has a Tyrant Guard with a bone sword and lash whip I don't think the Phoenix Lord can win that fight.