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Personally I'd say you don't get +1 attack on counter attack with a true grit like rule. Counter attack in the days of True Grit was different to what it is now, so you can't compare.

Personally I think 2 attacks on GH regardless of whether they charge, get charged or are in drawn out combat is fine, more in line with a Tac marine with chapter tactics.

At the moment with 3 attacks when they get charged they are monsters against CC armies. They gun down half the enemy before it reaches them and then with 3 attacks each they are likely to beat them in combat as well.

I think if you want to keep the 3 attacks when they get charged, GH are probably worth more like 16 or 17pts, while BC are probably worth more like 13pts.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If Grey Hunters *really* need a nerf, I'd accept a return to the "True Grit" days... but that's not the "original codex" or what they "originally had". You're talking about 3rd edition.... nothing original about that. We hated it and burnt the books to make sure they were dead.

2nd edition SW heralded the Terminator assault/cyclone spam of entire units.

That was obviously an oversight by GW when they released the codex and should have been amended.
People who played in the spirit of fun didn't do that (I certainly never did)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
third edition is generally what heralded the current status of the editions

Yes, that's exactly my point, and why I'd burn it.
The current game is a hollow shell of what the game used to be. Sure - 2nd ed had its problems, but what version doesn't?

What should have happened was GW should have slowly amended the rules and codecies to fix the problems (like many groups have done, who have stayed with or gone back to 2nd ed), rather than just trash-bin a great game and come up with the hateful garbage that got us where we are now

No Jaws.
Runepriests balanced for 6th Ed.
A place for Blood Claws (and their ilk).

So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.

That's how SM felt during 5th edition when they were 16 and SW got 15. GH were actually worth it back when they were 17 points, they just gained more power and actually got cheaper.

Also we are discussing that BC gets a price reduction (Nobody is actually calling them higher)

True grit only prevented the +1 on an actual charge, so you'd get 2 attacks on the charge. Simple enough.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.

They are currently too powerful for their points. Either make them more expensive or make them worse. 2 attacks all the time would make them about equal to tac marines (they'd essentially be tac marines with a chapter tactic that errs on the side of CC). They wouldn't be worse than codex marines, that's just being dramatic, lol. Keeping them the way they are makes them better than Tac Marines by more than just 1pt, so yeah, I'd say 16pts.

I don't really know the relevance of whether other armies have had their troops change from 5th -> 6th (FWIW, not all armies got better and cheaper anyway).

If you were to keep the rules as they are now, I'd make BC 13pts, maaaaaybe 12pts. GH would be 16pts or maaaaaaybe 17pts.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.

That's how SM felt during 5th edition when they were 16 and SW got 15. GH were actually worth it back when they were 17 points, they just gained more power and actually got cheaper.

Also we are discussing that BC gets a price reduction (Nobody is actually calling them higher)

True grit only prevented the +1 on an actual charge, so you'd get 2 attacks on the charge. Simple enough.

But when SM were 16 and Grey Hunters were 15, that was just Codex Creep. The same thing that has dropped the cost of gants consistently, taken Space Marines down to 14ppm, and generally nade each codex tougher than the last.

But you want to reverse the Codex creep, instead throwing Grey Hunters backwards one edition. Instead of being newer, and therefore having a slight edge, you want to make Grey Hunters worse in some way or another, in spite of the update being intended to do just the opposite of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.

They are currently too powerful for their points. Either make them more expensive or make them worse. 2 attacks all the time would make them about equal to tac marines (they'd essentially be tac marines with a chapter tactic that errs on the side of CC). They wouldn't be worse than codex marines, that's just being dramatic, lol. Keeping them the way they are makes them better than Tac Marines by more than just 1pt, so yeah, I'd say 16pts.

I don't really know the relevance of whether other armies have had their troops change from 5th -> 6th (FWIW, not all armies got better and cheaper anyway).

If you were to keep the rules as they are now, I'd make BC 13pts, maaaaaybe 12pts. GH would be 16pts or maaaaaaybe 17pts.

I'm still unsure what makes Grey Hunters so much better than codex marines. (Keep in mind, once you include Forge World, there's a chapter who gets Apothecaries in all their squads for free, and another chapter that can get a CCW on every model for... 1 PPM. Just like Grey Hunters.)
What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.

I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?

Codices don't always have to become more powerful than their predecessor, lol. SW aren't underpowered now, they don't need to be made more powerful.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Codices don't always have to become more powerful than their predecessor, lol. SW aren't underpowered now, they don't need to be made more powerful.

I never said we had to be stronger. I'm just wondering why there's a clamor to make us weaker when we're already just a mid-level codex.

It's not really making the codex weaker though. For example, buffing banshees (eldar) isn't a bad thing. Simply put, Banshee are terrible. It doesn't matter if the Eldar codex is already good or not. Within SW, GH are simply too appealing and are all around better than Tactical Marines and even more so drastically superior to CSM. The notion is, sense this is to some extent a place where individuals wishlist, for people to pronounce their ideas. For example, if I were to say the CSM were being updated. I would probably mention buffing CSM and KSons whilst also blathering for some time about possible ways to nerf the Heldrake. Not to make it a bad pick but to make it a okay pick. Something that is equally as good and bad as anything else.

For another SW example. Look at the HQs. From what I know, the only real good/a bit too good unit is the Librari- priest. Bar that, from what I know at least, the rest is sub par and not worth its price. Arguably, one would want to nerf down the Wolf Priests along with buffing the others so that all are equal options. We can't raise everything to the standard of the Wolf Priest because then everything ends up being SM+ and further pushing the lesser codices to even worst tiers.

Except you still haven't explained what makes Grey Hunters so vastly powerful, appealing, and better. Compared to, say, a bunch of Rending boltguns with scout and stealth on the first turn, or FNP on every squad in your army, or Fear and the aforementioned extra optional CCW for 1 Point (And rage after killing an enemy.)

I simply can't believe that Grey Hunters are any better than Tactical marines, once you consider the slight point difference and the many things Grey Hunters don't have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll agree that Rune Priests are good, if only because of the 4+ psychic bubble. Make it 5+ or a 12" bubble, and it'd be more fair.
But, compared to the Marine version, everything else in our HQ section is worse. Our chaplains our worse. Our chapter masters are worse. Our Captains are worse. We've got no special characters worth taking.
In Elites, our Techmarines are worse. Our Dreadnaughts are worse. Our scouts are too different to reasonably compare, but generally to expensive to do anything useful.
Our bikes are worse. Our assault marines are worse. We don't have Thunderfire Cannons, Centurions, Grav-Weaponry, Fliers, or AA.
We have three units in the entire codex which stand out as good. An expensive librarian with Divination and psychic defense, Tactical Marines with decent (But not phenominal) special rules, and slightly cheaper Devestators.

Why on earth do you keep calling Space Wolves better?

Wait where are these rending boltguns coming from? Fear? Why mention fear at all huh? Also extra optional CCW? Is that crusaders? Sorry not quiter sure where you are getting all of this from. Is any of this CSM? Because if you do I can simply explain why GH are simply better than CSM in every way.

Anyways, on GH. The CCW is an invisible +1 point. So now GH have Counter-attack. This is a rather odd rule. On the one hand, it actually, in and of itself is good. On the other hand though, it isn't as effective due to the meta that exists. Still, one of the three nasty armies is CC oriented so it can come to use on occasion. Acute Senses is of rather limited uses so a minor wooo. The final bit, is, as mentioned. The free special weapon as well as the capability to specialize. That's what really nails them for being better in my personal opinion.

Also that's why I mentioned making SW chaplains better. Although technically you only have one chapter master (SC) by the way . I'm not disagreeing with you there. There are many things SW have that could be buffed. Although sadly Assault Marines won't be fixed (or they will and they'll just be SM+1 perpetuating a foolish cycle). Also I wouldn't quite say not having everything that Marines have is a bad thing. Its to make things different. Fliers and AA, as mentioned by practically all, is simply a must.

Waaaghpower wrote:
What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.

I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?

IMO counter attack and CCW is worth more than 1pt. I think if most Marine players were told they can get a CCW without losing the bolter and also get counter attack for +1pt, they'd jump at the opportunity and it'd be an auto-take.

The Veteran Sergeant is +10pts, a barebones WG is 18pts, so only +3pts. The WG can also have more extra equipment and cheaper extra equipment than a vet.

Yep, if you want to be in a Rhino AND have a WG you lose the free special weapon. But it was a free special weapon. It'd be more fair to say "if the squad numbers more than 9 models, it may take 2 special weapons", rather than just getting a free one.

Forge World chapters. There's like a dozen of them. Look it up.

And I'm not saying that Space Wolves want, need, or deserve everything in the Marine codex. I am saying, though, that we do NOT need any kind of debuff. We are generally worse than Vanilla marines in almost every way. We've got two units who are a marked improvement, (Rune Priests and Long Fangs), and one unit who is arguably better in some circumstances. Then there are a handful of equal/different models (Fenrisians and TWC have no real comparisons, for example, our Scouts are too different to compare, Wolf Guard can be effective in certain rare applications, and the vehicles we get are identical.) Pretty much everything else is worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.

I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?

IMO counter attack and CCW is worth more than 1pt. I think if most Marine players were told they can get a CCW without losing the bolter and also get counter attack for +1pt, they'd jump at the opportunity and it'd be an auto-take.

The Veteran Sergeant is +10pts, a barebones WG is 18pts, so only +3pts. The WG can also have more extra equipment and cheaper extra equipment than a vet.

Yep, if you want to be in a Rhino AND have a WG you lose the free special weapon. But it was a free special weapon. It'd be more fair to say "if the squad numbers more than 9 models, it may take 2 special weapons", rather than just getting a free one.

Except the 'Counter attack and CCW' are our chapter tactics. We don't get any of the several options I've listed multiple times that you apparently somehow missed. Yes, it's a useful bonus that is worth more than one point. But we don't get it for one point, we lose accesss to chapter tactics, combat squads, and heavy weapons.
And yeah, Chapter Tactics are usually as useful as Counter Attack,+1CCW, and 1 point.

Ah, well to be rather honest I don't know as much about Forge World chapters. I'm a chaos player at heart and so I simply hold hatred for the sheer number of chapters that SM has. It feeds my daemons that then destroy my friend who plays SW and constantly taunts my Tzeentchian army that he's going to sick his wolves on me and deny everything I have on a 4+ .

Also losing acess to HW isn't bad. And you forget to mention gaining free Specials. I'd rather have 2 special weapons and one be free any day in comparison to one heavy weapon and one special having to pay for both.

SW chapter tactics are really more like: Acute Senses and Counter-attack honestly

 StarTrotter wrote:
Ah, well to be rather honest I don't know as much about Forge World chapters. I'm a chaos player at heart and so I simply hold hatred for the sheer number of chapters that SM has. It feeds my daemons that then destroy my friend who plays SW and constantly taunts my Tzeentchian army that he's going to sick his wolves on me and deny everything I have on a 4+ .

Also losing acess to HW isn't bad. And you forget to mention gaining free Specials.

Well yes, a model specifically built to be anti-psyker and anti-Daemon is going to be good against a psyker-heavy daemon list.

Yes I know. And he always seems so surprised when I promptly slaughter his Rune Priest very early on revelling all the while at his petty foolishness. Tzeentch is not pleased in your attempts to try to best us in magical might! MWAHAHAHA! Speaking of which, why is he even anti-daemon to begin with?

Seriously please I already have to field terrible marks of Tzeentch, terrible Thousand Sons, the worst psyker in the game, and the only special rule we get actually hamstrings us . I ended up having to get daemons as a crutch to fill the abyss of bad. Sadly there is no longer the helpful DS so no more synergy :/

I'm still unsure what makes Grey Hunters so much better than codex marines. (Keep in mind, once you include Forge World, there's a chapter who gets Apothecaries in all their squads for free, and another chapter that can get a CCW on every model for... 1 PPM. Just like Grey Hunters.)

The Red Scorpions (Aka the Apothecaries) only get it in Tactical Squads, but they gain the penalty of never going to ground and no camo. (For the ENTIRE ARMY.)

The Carcharodons Gain Fear (worthless), gain the ability to swap a bolter out for CCW, or +1 for CCW/BP. But they have no special rules beyond Fear (as said, worthless), and gain rage only AFTER they kill an INFANTRY squad in an assault (or forced to fall back).

They also are at Desperate Allies for any Imperium based ally, and cannot ally anything else.

They do not have Double Special Weapon, nor the variety of special gear GH get, nor Counter Attack.

Comparing them is still pretty bad compared to GH and SW.

Except you still haven't explained what makes Grey Hunters so vastly powerful, appealing, and better. Compared to, say, a bunch of Rending boltguns with scout and stealth on the first turn, or FNP on every squad in your army, or Fear and the aforementioned extra optional CCW for 1 Point (And rage after killing an enemy.)

You might want to look up the actual entries, FNP on every squad? Nope, Fear is bad too, and the additional CCW doesn't change that they don't get the same gear as GH which solidifies them.

The rending Bolters are only Heavy 1 and you can't move in the movement phase.

Waaaghpower wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.

I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?

IMO counter attack and CCW is worth more than 1pt. I think if most Marine players were told they can get a CCW without losing the bolter and also get counter attack for +1pt, they'd jump at the opportunity and it'd be an auto-take.

The Veteran Sergeant is +10pts, a barebones WG is 18pts, so only +3pts. The WG can also have more extra equipment and cheaper extra equipment than a vet.

Yep, if you want to be in a Rhino AND have a WG you lose the free special weapon. But it was a free special weapon. It'd be more fair to say "if the squad numbers more than 9 models, it may take 2 special weapons", rather than just getting a free one.

Except the 'Counter attack and CCW' are our chapter tactics. We don't get any of the several options I've listed multiple times that you apparently somehow missed. Yes, it's a useful bonus that is worth more than one point. But we don't get it for one point, we lose accesss to chapter tactics, combat squads, and heavy weapons.
And yeah, Chapter Tactics are usually as useful as Counter Attack,+1CCW, and 1 point.

I personally think counter attack + CCW is worth more than any of the chapter tactics in the marine codex. I don't really follow FW rules, so if FW have some stuff that's massively better at the same price, I can't really comment.

Yes, we lose a couple of options and gain a veteran sergeant who is basically only a 3pt upgrade, cheaper special weapons, a free special weapon for a full sized unit and the option to take an additional power weapon (which is also cheaper) via the wolf guard. I personally think that balances out

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I'm still unsure what makes Grey Hunters so much better than codex marines. (Keep in mind, once you include Forge World, there's a chapter who gets Apothecaries in all their squads for free, and another chapter that can get a CCW on every model for... 1 PPM. Just like Grey Hunters.)

The Red Scorpions (Aka the Apothecaries) only get it in Tactical Squads, but they gain the penalty of never going to ground and no camo. (For the ENTIRE ARMY.)

The Carcharodons Gain Fear (worthless), gain the ability to swap a bolter out for CCW, or +1 for CCW/BP. But they have no special rules beyond Fear (as said, worthless), and gain rage only AFTER they kill an INFANTRY squad in an assault (or forced to fall back).

They also are at Desperate Allies for any Imperium based ally, and cannot ally anything else.

They do not have Double Special Weapon, nor the variety of special gear GH get, nor Counter Attack.

Comparing them is still pretty bad compared to GH and SW.

And you're telling me that FREE FNP on all your Tactical squads isn't fantastic?
Why is fear 'Worthless'? I've won more than a couple games because of a failed leadership test.

I'm also not arguing that Grey Hunters are any worse than these guys, just that we aren't getting our bonuses for free when soneone else gets nothing.
And, for the mpth time, we gain special gear and a second special weapon, but lose a ton of stuff too: Heavy weapons, grav weapons, squad veterans unless we give up our vehicles or special weapons, combat squads, etc.

And you're telling me that FREE FNP on all your Tactical squads isn't fantastic?
Why is fear 'Worthless'? I've won more than a couple games because of a failed leadership test.

Blood Angels had it, and they could FNP even more squads then that including Assault Terminators, where are they now exactly when it comes to power?

That's not what fear does. A LD check to drop to WS1

However...

They do not affect:

ATSKNF models (Half of the entire codex in the game)

Fearless models (So Nids, CSM and the like)

Models that cause fear (Daemons, etc)

And of course, all this has to be in melee. It's literally the worst rule ingame.

I'm also not arguing that Grey Hunters are any worse than these guys, just that we aren't getting our bonuses for free when soneone else gets nothing.
And, for the mpth time, we gain special gear and a second special weapon, but lose a ton of stuff too: Heavy weapons, grav weapons, squad veterans unless we give up our vehicles or special weapons, combat squads, etc.

The heavy weapon makes the squad schizophrenic and unfocused, the grav weapons are okay, not excellent. Squad veterans doesn't really matter much to a unit with ASTKNF. Combat Tactics only really works if you need more then 6 squads..If you do, something is pretty wrong.

GH are specialized entirely around the midfield, it gives them focus, the secondary special weapon, the CCW/BP, Counter-attack, it all gives them a full focus that Tactical's cannot match.

Fear really has almost no uses. You know how you often forget Acute Senses? Yeah. Here's the thing. Fear works only on units that aren't Fearless or And they Shall Know no Fear. That means that against many orks, most times you will be fighting Tyranids, every loyalist SM army, chaos daemons, and many CSM forces it has absolutely no uses. Along with that, it is in the end only worthwhile in CC which further limits its effectivieness especially in an edition that already puts CC lower than shooting. To compound it, a WS of 1 merely means you are only hitting on a 5+. The units that get affected by this likely are already terrible in CC. Oh no I feared tau in cc. Along with that, Necrons, SM, and many other armies have naturally high ld making it further unlikely for fear to make a difference. IH is good, that and the White Scars are really good. The rest admittedly are variable ranging from good to decent to sub par. Also I have one. CSM . 13 points of fail. Also DA can run for your money. A special rule that arguably is more inconvenient than anything else

And yet again, losing heavy weapons is meaningless as heavy weapons are bad. Grav weapons only came out in the newest codex so that isn't even entirely fair.

Fear doesn't make you immune to fear.
Anyways, I've gone back and forth for a couple pages now, and since little headway has been made either way I think I'll call it. It's not like the opinions of a handful of dudes (or girls) on the internet will actually affect the codex...

No! One cannot simply leave the eternal war! That is heresy! Although I am curious still as to what exactly SW will end up with. I have a bad feeling it will be something very Fenrisian wolf-like.

 StarTrotter wrote:
No! One cannot simply leave the eternal war! That is heresy! Although I am curious still as to what exactly SW will end up with. I have a bad feeling it will be something very Fenrisian wolf-like.

I've beard rumors that they're shifting the emphasis to encompass the space half as much as the wolf half. So we'll have Wolf Spacers fighting alongside Canis Spaceborn of the Astral Wolves with a Wolftail Starpendant and a Space Claw and riding on a thunderSpace.

And there shall be a Werewolf that is the new evolution. A giant MC bigger than a daemon prince with broken fragments of power armor clutching a xenos or csm of some sort and chewing at it. Special rules for night time giving it bonus stats as it howls at the moon.

 StarTrotter wrote:
And there shall be a Werewolf that is the new evolution. A giant MC bigger than a daemon prince with broken fragments of power armor clutching a xenos or csm of some sort and chewing at it. Special rules for night time giving it bonus stats as it howls at the moon.

Naturally. It has T10, a Destroyer Cannon, ignores all cover, allows no invulns, and has the Instant Death special rule. And he rides on a Thunderwolf.

They should put the ability to play 13th company or to play wulfen as troops via a Saga. I have 25 of those metal Wulfen models and I was pretty P'd when they wasn't included in the 5th edition. I wanted a Wulfen Type army, so I casted the Wulfen heads and used them for my Wolf Guard instead of cutting off the metal heads. I'm loving the Thunder Wolves. I was suspicious of them at first, but they sure last a hell lot longer then those bikes. Add a storm shield with that 3+ invulnerable I found out it was a plus for me. But the TWC should come down in cost.

I would be happy with loosing Counter Attack for True Grit if only to make everyone shut up about us having Counter Attack, but then people would start to cry about us having True Grit.
I do not want the Space Wolves to loose Counter Attack for a few reasons and I think it is reasnable for us to keep it.
1] What would it be replace with, True Grit, a power that requires you to have a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter to make use of, making it as worthless as Acute Senses for more than half the Army!
2] We still Require a LD Test to use it, witch is usually a 8 unless you pay a tax for LD9. [People keep forgetting that, I can not count the number of times I have failed that LD Test]
3] It would also cause a lot of to do remodeling, I have a bunch of my Grey Hunters modeled with a Bolt Gun and a Chain Sword. [Yes this is my Selfish Reason]

A true grit-like rule would not require you to remodel anything, you still needed a CCW.

I'd keep counter attack as an army wide rule, just make it so GH can't use true grit at the same time they counter attack. So your Wolf guard would still have 3 attacks when they get charged (4 if they have BP/CCW) and Blood Claws would get 2+1 attacks when they get charged.