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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A true grit-like rule would not require you to remodel anything, you still needed a CCW.

I'd keep counter attack as an army wide rule, just make it so GH can't use true grit at the same time they counter attack. So your Wolf guard would still have 3 attacks when they get charged (4 if they have BP/CCW) and Blood Claws would get 2+1 attacks when they get charged.

So you are suggesting a 3rd USR that Replaces 2 other USRs in one Specific Case?

A lot of posters are focusing on the rules part of the game for the hate. When a lot of the rules are fluff related.

So don;t blame grey hunters for being good HtH fighters.

Blame your space marines for following the codex astartes.

There is only one thing I want from the Space Wolves Codex: To be released after the ork codex.

Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A true grit-like rule would not require you to remodel anything, you still needed a CCW.

I'd keep counter attack as an army wide rule, just make it so GH can't use true grit at the same time they counter attack. So your Wolf guard would still have 3 attacks when they get charged (4 if they have BP/CCW) and Blood Claws would get 2+1 attacks when they get charged.

So you are suggesting a 3rd USR that Replaces 2 other USRs in one Specific Case?

I'm not sure what you mean, True Grit would be another special rule which would be something along the lines of "Space Wolves can use their bolters as bolt pistols, except due to being awkward, they do not gain +1 attack from having a pistol/CCW on a turn they charged or were charged". You could reword it to be "turn they charged" if you want them to still have 3 attacks when they get charged.

DOOMONYOU wrote:A lot of posters are focusing on the rules part of the game for the hate. When a lot of the rules are fluff related.

So don;t blame grey hunters for being good HtH fighters.

Blame your space marines for following the codex astartes.

GH are good close combat fighters, but I really don't think they're THAT much better than a regular SM. The current iteration of SW the GH have the biggest CC advantage over regular marines they've ever had. They started off being +1 Ws (when +1 Ws was more like +1 attack is these days), then changed to True Grit which made them mildly better than a Tac marine in CC, then to what we have now where they are much better than a Tac marine in combat.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
A lot of posters are focusing on the rules part of the game for the hate. When a lot of the rules are fluff related.

So don;t blame grey hunters for being good HtH fighters.

Blame your space marines for following the codex astartes.

As a Black Templars player, I suggest you kindly *redacted* before I *redacted*.

Actually to make it work simple you would have to do something like this.

Army Wide Rules
Acute Senses: As Written
Counter Attack: As Written
True Grit: The Rule allows Models armed with a Bolter, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter use it as a Second Close Combat Weapon. This Rule replaces the Counter Attack rule if the Model is equipped with a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter.

The reason for the Combi-Bolters and Storm Bolters iirc was because they were included originally with True Grit.

This would be simple and help Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor and Characters like Logan.

Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.

Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.

I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.

From there, it's mostly cleanup to get the codex in line with some of the others. Grey Hunters at five models can get a flamer/pasma/melta in place of their bolt gun or a power weapon/power fist in place of their CCW, at ten models you can do it again or take a heavy weapon in place of a boltgun. That kind of thing.

Lone Wolves get shuffled to an HQ choice, 0-3 say that don't count against the force org chart, with some kind of "I join my brothers" rule where they don't net the other side a victory point when they die, monster hunter, and while Characters, they aren't Independent Characters, so can't join squads.

Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.

While Space Wolves frown at most flying tech, the STormraven should be well-regarded. "So, let me get this right. It's a flying machine that we ride in, just to go over the snow and get dropped off close to the enemy, so we can fight? And it doesn't really fly around and shoot like a coward so much as just get us stuck in faster?"

"Yes."

"We'll buy a hundred."

It's a Longship under another name and should be treated as such. Stromtalons, Land Speeders, meh and feh, but a longship's an idea that Wolves can always get behind.

Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."

Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.

When I get a day off, I can sit down and do a big write-up, but these are the soft ideas.

Wakshaani wrote:
Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.

So you would have us Drop our Good USR and leave us with our 90% Useless USR?


Micro-Rant about Space Wolves and Acute Sense:

Anpu42 wrote:Actually to make it work simple you would have to do something like this.

Army Wide Rules
Acute Senses: As Written
Counter Attack: As Written
True Grit: The Rule allows Models armed with a Bolter, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter use it as a Second Close Combat Weapon. This Rule replaces the Counter Attack rule if the Model is equipped with a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter.

The reason for the Combi-Bolters and Storm Bolters iirc was because they were included originally with True Grit.

This would be simple and help Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor and Characters like Logan.

No, Storm Bolters were never included in True Grit, can't remember about combis, would have to look up my old codex.

But your rule still isn't great, because it means GH can't assault after shooting because they don't have a bolt pistol. I prefer my wording which is basically just bolter can be used as a bolt pistol except it doesn't get +1 attack on the charge or when counter attacking.

Wakshaani wrote:Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.

Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.

I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.

They'd only be worth 15pts tops, given tac marines are 14pts and have chapter tactics and combat squads, GH would be worth no more than 15pts then.

Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.

I prefer Wolf Guard are taken as a single entry and then you break some of them off to be pack leaders. I feel that works better with their "Wolf Guard are the personal elite of a Wolf Lord"

Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."

Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.

Having names for the Wolf Lords doesn't stop people making up their own, I don't see why you'd bother changing the fluff to have unknown Wolf Lords when people already just make up their own anyway. After all, the only 2 Great Companies that actually have characters with rules are Ragnar's and Logan's, the other 10 are open slather.

Personaly I think they are fine the way they are.
I might have been think of the Iquisition verson of True Grit too, but it has also been forever since I have seen the rule, it is in a box someware.

Probably the main reason I think it's a problem is that I also collect Tyranids and I'd rather fight a tac squad about a million times more than GH, LOL.

If either counter attack or Acute senses needs to go as a chapter wide abiltiy, its got to be acute senses. Under the current rules very few units actually can use it unless you give the Outflank USR to a lot more units or maybe allow Wolf Guard used as unit leaders to gain outflank.

Myself, I'd drop Acute Senses and input a new army wide rule that gives each model a one time game use of interceptor. (because they could smell/hear them coming) Not skyfire mind you, just interceptor.

Also there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing a whole army to be counter attack specialists. Its really no worse than giving an entire army furious charge (orks) or FNP (marines/nurgle) especially one that has a requirement like an LD check where the models are all LD8 or LD9. I've failed countless countercharge checks.

 Jayden63 wrote:
If either counter attack or Acute senses needs to go as a chapter wide abiltiy, its got to be acute senses. Under the current rules very few units actually can use it unless you give the Outflank USR to a lot more units or maybe allow Wolf Guard used as unit leaders to gain outflank.

Myself, I'd drop Acute Senses and input a new army wide rule that gives each model a one time game use of interceptor. (because they could smell/hear them coming) Not skyfire mind you, just interceptor.

Also there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing a whole army to be counter attack specialists. Its really no worse than giving an entire army furious charge (orks) or FNP (marines/nurgle) especially one that has a requirement like an LD check where the models are all LD8 or LD9. I've failed countless countercharge checks.

Good god we don't need that much more interceptor, my outflanking CSM are already beaten back by tau as it is.

Also Orks are standard S3 most of the time, with 4 for nobs.

Also that FNP nurgle is pretty expensive (yet most worth it. ), but FNP marines not so much, as Red Scorpions aint so hot with FNP tacticals, and BA is just...yeah. Feeling like DA in 5th edition I suppose.

Acute Senses could be replaced with Night Vision???

I myself would also like to see a change to Long Fangs. I've always liked the following.

Long fang squad - 90 points. Two Long Fangs, one squad leader. Up to 3 additional Long Fangs may join at 35 points each.

Long Fang - Same stats as now
Squad Leader - Same stats but increase wounds to 2

Long fangs must choose a weapon from the following list at the beginning of each battle.
Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannon, Grav Cannon

Fire control - As long as the Squad leader is alive, the unit may split fire between two target units.
I can smell them - As long as the squad leader does not shoot in his next shooting phase, the entire squad has Interceptor USR
Vet Skill - Steady Hand - Longfangs make snap shots at BS2 instead of BS 1.

This puts an entire squad at 195ish points. Where typical squads were only 140. Its Also 50 more points than a tri Las preditor. Possibly making other HS options more interesting. It also helps with the SW problem of flyers without blatently giving skyfire missiles or some other seems like tacked on stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
If either counter attack or Acute senses needs to go as a chapter wide abiltiy, its got to be acute senses. Under the current rules very few units actually can use it unless you give the Outflank USR to a lot more units or maybe allow Wolf Guard used as unit leaders to gain outflank.

Myself, I'd drop Acute Senses and input a new army wide rule that gives each model a one time game use of interceptor. (because they could smell/hear them coming) Not skyfire mind you, just interceptor.

Also there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing a whole army to be counter attack specialists. Its really no worse than giving an entire army furious charge (orks) or FNP (marines/nurgle) especially one that has a requirement like an LD check where the models are all LD8 or LD9. I've failed countless countercharge checks.

Good god we don't need that much more interceptor, my outflanking CSM are already beaten back by tau as it is.

Yeah, but this isn't Tau where standard infantry weapon is 30" and really big hurty stuff is 60" or better. The vast majority SW weaponry is only 24" or less. Much less firepower will be coming your way from across the table.

Wakshaani wrote:
Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.

Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.

I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.

From there, it's mostly cleanup to get the codex in line with some of the others. Grey Hunters at five models can get a flamer/pasma/melta in place of their bolt gun or a power weapon/power fist in place of their CCW, at ten models you can do it again or take a heavy weapon in place of a boltgun. That kind of thing.

Lone Wolves get shuffled to an HQ choice, 0-3 say that don't count against the force org chart, with some kind of "I join my brothers" rule where they don't net the other side a victory point when they die, monster hunter, and while Characters, they aren't Independent Characters, so can't join squads.

Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.

While Space Wolves frown at most flying tech, the STormraven should be well-regarded. "So, let me get this right. It's a flying machine that we ride in, just to go over the snow and get dropped off close to the enemy, so we can fight? And it doesn't really fly around and shoot like a coward so much as just get us stuck in faster?"

"Yes."

"We'll buy a hundred."

It's a Longship under another name and should be treated as such. Stromtalons, Land Speeders, meh and feh, but a longship's an idea that Wolves can always get behind.

Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."

Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.

When I get a day off, I can sit down and do a big write-up, but these are the soft ideas.

Good God - everything you said is terrible! "Soft ideas" is correct - whatever you do, don't write anything else please


As far as people complaining about our free 2nd special weapon - that's from an edition where that kind of thing was standard.

Codex Space Marines 5th Edition

If the squad numbers ten models, one Space Marine may
replace his boltgun with one of the following:
- a heavy bolter, multi-melta or a missile launcher free

Now that's been changed in 6th edition and you can calm your panties because it'll probably happen to Space Wolves too if we got as frequent codex updates as normal marines.
The points nerf will probably happen as well, so calm down

More to the point, I've always found it rubbish that normal Space Marines only get one attack. All the stories and novels always talk about Astartes pulling out their 'combat blade' or 'gladius' or whatever
So maybe the problem isn't that Grey Hunters get a CCW..... maybe the problem is that tac marines DON'T?
What's so "tactical" about an inability to melee?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fix them, instead of breaking us to match.

I think the only Heavy Weapon I would like Grey Hunters would be the Heavy Bolter as a Special Ranged Weapon, but that would be for the "Cool Factor" more than anything.

 karlosovic wrote:

Good God - everything you said is terrible! "Soft ideas" is correct - whatever you do, don't write anything else please


As far as people complaining about our free 2nd special weapon - that's from an edition where that kind of thing was standard.

So that's how you react to people posting differing opinions and ideas to yours? Insult them and dismiss them?

Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it. Don't fall into excessive fanboyism and actually take a critical look at everything from an unbiased perspective.

Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.

 Blacksails wrote:


Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.

No, no its not. A free 10 points is nothing more than a free 10 points. Especially since the free heavy weapon was on a unit that could choose to combat squad out to let the free heavy do nothing more than hang back and shoot. And again, the free of the GH special weapon isn't exactly free. It does have some costs in the form of transportation, leadership and specialist CCW if you choose to go that route.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm also going to throw out that people who are complaining about counter charge fit into three catagories.

1 - Short/long term memory issues
2 - Started after 5th edition SW codex was released
3 - Understand the idea that since the very beginning it has always been a very bad idea to charge into HTH against SW armies and are just sick of it after 12 years or so.

Small history lesson. In 3rd and 4th edition counter charge did not give +1 attack. What it did do is allow the unit on the receiving end of a charge to consolidate 6" into the attacking unit. This was back in the day when if you had a unit of 10 guys and only 3 made it into BTB contact with two of the enemy guys you only fought with those three guys (and/or everyone within 2" depending if its 3rd or 4th edition). So typically it would be your 6-9 attacks vs their 2-4. However, thanks to counter attack the SW player would now pile in all 8 of the other guys (including 1-2 hidden P-fists) and suddenly its a grand melee with them now swinging an additional 16 attacks instead of just the 4 from the two guys you made contact with. So yeah, it was actually worse than it is now in the grand scheme of things and how assaults worked.

You only ever charged SW armies with units that would strike before them because that way you can still limit their strike backs.

A strong counter assault has been a part of SW play style for years. Just like scouts coming on on your board edge and Long Fangs splitting fire. These are some of the identities of an SW army. If you take them away, then yeah, you might as well just roll them into the Marine book because they wont be SW anymore.

Anyone else want nightvision? I think that would be a good fluffy thing and not too op.

 Psy-Titan wrote:
Anyone else want nightvision? I think that would be a good fluffy thing and not too op.

Back in 5th edition, we *had* night vision. Acute Senses let you reroll the distance when checking night fighting vision.
And, since GW never fixes old codexes until the update...

No to Grav Cannons on Long Fangs, only Centurions can take them in the Vanilla Codex.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.

No, no its not. A free 10 points is nothing more than a free 10 points. Especially since the free heavy weapon was on a unit that could choose to combat squad out to let the free heavy do nothing more than hang back and shoot. And again, the free of the GH special weapon isn't exactly free. It does have some costs in the form of transportation, leadership and specialist CCW if you choose to go that route.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm also going to throw out that people who are complaining about counter charge fit into three catagories.

1 - Short/long term memory issues
2 - Started after 5th edition SW codex was released
3 - Understand the idea that since the very beginning it has always been a very bad idea to charge into HTH against SW armies and are just sick of it after 12 years or so.

Small history lesson. In 3rd and 4th edition counter charge did not give +1 attack. What it did do is allow the unit on the receiving end of a charge to consolidate 6" into the attacking unit. This was back in the day when if you had a unit of 10 guys and only 3 made it into BTB contact with two of the enemy guys you only fought with those three guys (and/or everyone within 2" depending if its 3rd or 4th edition). So typically it would be your 6-9 attacks vs their 2-4. However, thanks to counter attack the SW player would now pile in all 8 of the other guys (including 1-2 hidden P-fists) and suddenly its a grand melee with them now swinging an additional 16 attacks instead of just the 4 from the two guys you made contact with. So yeah, it was actually worse than it is now in the grand scheme of things and how assaults worked.

You only ever charged SW armies with units that would strike before them because that way you can still limit their strike backs.

A strong counter assault has been a part of SW play style for years. Just like scouts coming on on your board edge and Long Fangs splitting fire. These are some of the identities of an SW army. If you take them away, then yeah, you might as well just roll them into the Marine book because they wont be SW anymore.

I'm familiar with past iterations of SW. GH were mildly worse to charge than a regular Marine, and much worse to charge if you were only charging in with a couple of models (because of counter attack). Now they're a crap load worse to charge than a regular Marine. Before that they were basically just Marines that were all round slightly better in CC.

I've been collecting them since 2nd edition, so what you call their identity, I call GW trying to figure out how to make them better than regular Marines in a system that didn't have as much delineation between troops that were similar but not the same.

And it's not like GW don't change "identity" of troops as they desire anyway.

But whatever the case may be, if GH are close combat monsters that's fine by me, I just think they're worth more than 15pts in their current form.

 Blacksails wrote:

 karlosovic wrote:

Good God - everything you said is terrible! "Soft ideas" is correct - whatever you do, don't write anything else please

As far as people complaining about our free 2nd special weapon - that's from an edition where that kind of thing was standard.

So that's how you react to people posting differing opinions and ideas to yours? Insult them and dismiss them?

Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it. Don't fall into excessive fanboyism and actually take a critical look at everything from an unbiased perspective.

Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.

It's fine. When you post ideas, you can expect feedback to have negative sides. I'd rather have information as to *why* thing X or Y is opposed, mind you. Upthread the notations that Enhanced Senses is weak because so few units shoot a long way ... trust me, I feel your pain. Looking at my #2 army (Tyranids) whose Warlord Traits include "Everyone gets Enhanced Senses!", then glancing at an army that's mostly armed with 12" guns? Yeah. It's a *very* minor benefit. Of more import was the Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW for every Grey Hunter, effectively giving them all 2 attacks in melee while retaining the bolter for longer-ranged fights. Adding in counter-charge for a third attack just seemed excessive, especially as it would have pushed the basic cost for a Grey Hunter even higher. Does anyone want to pay 19 pts each for a Grey Hunter? I'd say not. Countercharge is thus removable from the majority of the troops and can be placed where it's more reasonable.

For instance, let the Bloodclaws get it. They're young, reckless, and still used to thinking like Vikings first and Marines second... "Drive me closer so I can hit them with my axe!" and all that. Grey Hunters have learned to mitigate that, so wouldn't have the rule.

A massive rebuild from the ground up isn't needed, but a general look to see what's core to the vision and what's just tacked on can be telling. For instance, Space Wolves need a way to deal with flying threats. Do you go high tech? Do you introduce some kind of native dragon-hunting tricks that are updated for the field (Throw a net on it!)? Do you just sa "Heck with it" and stick dragons in the mix? Do you go with a psycher option and give some sort of "Harsh winds blow" psychic power that does terrible things to flying units? Picking the direction is the hard part, making the rules follow is actually kind of easy.

At the end of the day, everyone wants the Space Wolves to be badass Space Vikings, chopping people with axes, blazing away with bolters, and howling in victory over the still-cooling bodies of their foes in the snow. How you get there's the fun part.

Blacksails wrote:Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it.

You know, I would - but:
a) I felt there was too much ground to cover individually. Sometimes something is just too bad in every way to warrant a detailed rebuttal.
b) It's all been covered already in this thread (but since it seems expected for me to do so again....)

Blacksails wrote:Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.

Oh, oh sorry, how silly of me.
You're right, of course, a free missile launcher is one thing, but a free flamer? That's just OP!!!
Of course, the tac squad gets a free flamer in addition to the free missile launcher (well, in the corresponding version. Again, I'd expect that to change when we ever get an update)

Wakshaani wrote:A massive rebuild from the ground up isn't needed...

But that's pretty much what you originally suggested.

Wakshaani wrote:Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep

So keep the crap rule no one wants, or cares about, that most units can't even use, and sweep away anything good.

Wakshaani wrote:Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW (losing their ability)...Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses

Well done - assign them a USR they can't actually use and make them more expensive than tac marines. Just what sort of "engineer" are you? Nothing that requires attention to detail, I hope? As for the price... well +1 CCW is useful, but you've robbed them of anything like 'Chapter Tactics' so I'm not sure they should be more expensive or not.
My suggestion would be to give them back Counter Attack, and give all tac marines the CCW they've always been missing. And make em all the same price

Actually tac marines had this even worse in 2nd ed. They were 30 points each with absolutely no ability in HtH, vs a standard Ork boy at 12pts who'd wipe the floor with twice his number of marines if the ork charged

Wakshaani wrote:From there, it's mostly cleanup to get the codex in line with some of the others. Grey Hunters at five models can get a flamer/pasma/melta in place of their bolt gun or a power weapon/power fist in place of their CCW, at ten models you can do it again or take a heavy weapon in place of a boltgun. That kind of thing.

OK this one isn't *aweful* but Grey Hunters don't play with heavy weapons... you're just trying to make them tac marines again

Wakshaani wrote:Lone Wolves get shuffled to an HQ choice, 0-3 say that don't count against the force org chart, with some kind of "I join my brothers" rule where they don't net the other side a victory point when they die, monster hunter, and while Characters, they aren't Independent Characters, so can't join squads.

I actually like this one, but it's already been mentioned several times already (by me, among others)

Wakshaani wrote:Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.)

Nope, terrible. Why only 0-3? That's not fluffy and it's not how most Space Wolf players have ever done it. We're not power gaming when we add Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, it's thematic, and has always just been the culture.

Wakshaani wrote:Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.

What do you mean "like normal marines" ? you mean with just a boltgun like some douchey Ultramarine sternguard or something? Hate it, doesn't fit the lore.

Wakshaani wrote:While Space Wolves frown at most flying tech, the STormraven should be well-regarded. "So, let me get this right. It's a flying machine that we ride in, just to go over the snow and get dropped off close to the enemy, so we can fight? And it doesn't really fly around and shoot like a coward so much as just get us stuck in faster?"

"Yes."

"We'll buy a hundred."

It's a Longship under another name and should be treated as such. Stromtalons, Land Speeders, meh and feh, but a longship's an idea that Wolves can always get behind.

Worst idea you've had yet.
a) Space Wolves don't hate flying - they hate teleporting.
b) If they actually *did* hate flying, why would the ship being unarmed make it better? They CERTAINLY don't have an issue with guns, ffs
c) All the stories have them flying about happily in Thunderhawks. Thunderhawks have a freaking battlecannon in the roof! So tell me again about your logic that Space Wolves are afraid of flying, but would consider it in an unarmed ship

Wakshaani wrote:Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."

Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.

This was already well dealt with

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Having names for the Wolf Lords doesn't stop people making up their own, I don't see why you'd bother changing the fluff to have unknown Wolf Lords when people already just make up their own anyway. After all, the only 2 Great Companies that actually have characters with rules are Ragnar's and Logan's, the other 10 are open slather.

I would like more fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.

I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry.

We could end up with this Dread:

 karlosovic wrote:
Actually tac marines had this even worse in 2nd ed. They were 30 points each with absolutely no ability in HtH, vs a standard Ork boy at 12pts who'd wipe the floor with twice his number of marines if the ork charged

It wasn't that bad. Space Marines had Ws4, Orks Ws3, so when you'd roll off for close combat, the SM would be 1 point ahead. Then you had the fact Space Marines were pretty good at shooting, as "rapid fire" was Marine-only and was 2 shots at full range if you didn't move.

 karlosovic wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it.

You know, I would - but:
a) I felt there was too much ground to cover individually. Sometimes something is just too bad in every way to warrant a detailed rebuttal.
b) It's all been covered already in this thread (but since it seems expected for me to do so again....)

Blacksails wrote:Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.

Oh, oh sorry, how silly of me.
You're right, of course, a free missile launcher is one thing, but a free flamer? That's just OP!!!
Of course, the tac squad gets a free flamer in addition to the free missile launcher (well, in the corresponding version. Again, I'd expect that to change when we ever get an update)

Its still not much of an excuse to tell someone its awful without having the basic courtesy of going over some of the reasons why. This is coming from the guy who used to haunt the proposed rules section, and there was a never ending stream of awful ideas there. You should still provide at least something as feedback than what you posted.

As for the special/heavy thing, I hope you understand how much better having matching special weapons is than a special and a heavy.

Also, am I missing something here? GH can take a free flamer too...and then another free flamer. I don't know about some of you, but I'm fairly certain most people would rather have a dual flamer squad than a flamer/missile launcher squad. Or a dual melta squad. Or a dual plasma squad.

 Skriker wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
What of you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?

With the possibility of a new Space Wolf Codex coming out in possibly less than a year what of you want to see done with it.

These threads drive me nuts. Lot of wishlisting and building up of hope so that when the book comes out everyone can be extra annoyed by it. All I want to see in a new Space Wolf book is the following:

1) No need to completely rebuild my army in any way.
2) No stupid overpowered crap that makes people avoid playing against me.
3) Not being beaten so hard with the nerf hammer that the force is unplayable.

only real wishlist item I have is:

4) Include the 13th company wulfen from the old Eye of Terror book.

Beyond that I just want a usable book that people don't whine about and is fun to use. The one thing I *expect* is some kind of AA ability...beyond that who knows...

Edit:

And JOWW has to go. That power is just stupid broken and all it does is make people angry.

Skriker

+1