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PLEASE Let Us Not Spend The Day Talking About How Much Better Grey Hunters Are Than Everyone Else!

Lets try to get beck what I tried to start yesterday: Dreadnaughts.

An attempt to get back on Subject:
Dreadnaughts:
I want them to be basically left alone, but with some minor things.
>Able to take a Second Power Fist
>Power Weapons as an option
>Wolf Claws an Option
>Venerable Dreadnaughts being able to Frost Weapons
>Björn getting either an extra Hull Point or a Belt of Russ [4++ Save]
>Björn getting his Wolf Claw back.

Dreads are bad because of AV and HP. You can't wishlist that away. By GW's own rules, Bjorn would have been destroyed a long time ago in the story.

I sculpted the claws on to mine and use it a s power fist, to bring in a cool claw rule, so he gets shred, OR wolf claw like rules for rerolls to hits or wounds would be cool, At strength 7 and claws he could be a good monster/ daemon hunter, just like in Prospero Burns

Maybe the opportunity for Mortis builds or Iron-clads would be nice, throw on the extra armour and they could be fun to use

 dantay_xv wrote:
I sculpted the claws on to mine and use it a s power fist, to bring in a cool claw rule, so he gets shred, OR wolf claw like rules for rerolls to hits or wounds would be cool, At strength 7 and claws he could be a good monster/ daemon hunter, just like in Prospero Burns

Maybe the opportunity for Mortis builds or Iron-clads would be nice, throw on the extra armour and they could be fun to use

I have my orginal 2nd Edition lead Bjorn. I love him, if I loose the game I can bounce him off the head of my opponent and tell the TO I won, becouse my opponent had to go to Urgent Care.

My dreadnought which I run as Bjorn, the old metal one is now a regular dread,
Claw, plasma cannon and if I use it asa regular dread the shield represents extra armour

A quick tip, if you want a hand with a lightning claw effect, file the area flat where the metal claws are, and cut the 4 corners off of a sprue and voila you have the basic armature for dread fingers
The wolf claw is just green stuff with some zombie scythe blades for the claws and a storm shield to tidy it up


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW the finger thing I did to my netal Bjorn dread, this one has trygon prime mandibles for fingets

^I love that one

Its really easy to do
And thank you!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry pictures for this are on photobucket not my dakka gallery.

I had mangled Bjorns claws in a small accident, so cut the stumps down, filed flat and filled he cavity with green stuff.



Then cut 4 corners from sprue like thiss.


And stuck on like so...


You an trim, cut as you see fit to make it more hand like but its is a good starting place... and all courtesy of my good friend on dakka, emissary1701

 Frankenberry wrote:


I play against one Space Wolf player and it's generally back and forth but I've never annihilated a GH squad like you just spent your post saying I should. I know what my ASM's can do, I play the army, telling me all this doesn't change the fact that I've lost combats to GH's repeatedly. Perhaps it's just how my luck runs when I square off against Space Wolves, I don't know, but a consistent ass kicking by the same unit in every game they're fielded sort of makes you wonder. But, in the interest of keeping things on track...

I said you should win combat, not annihilate. I'll give you that they are too good to get annihilated. Anyway, it could be that SW are your Achilles heel. Mine is Necrons. I haven't beaten a Necron army in who knows how long. Its always been a tie or a loss, regardless of what army faction or list I bring.

If and when my SW force ever takes off fully, I'd like to field other units besides those required by the general meta. I'd like to see TWC, dreadnoughts, and more special characters being viable. The only unique character I've seen appear on the board has been Grimnar (lets face it, the guy is a beast), I want that to change.

Thats the internet talking. TWC when taken in mass hurt badly. Ulrik is an awesome character to bring, but you have to work him into the list and play to his strengths, he is not a plug and play type character like so many others, and yeah, he could use a points drop. Dread need to be improved by giving them all the variants (except librarian dreads - I hate those things with a passion), but nothing in a codex will fix their performance under the core rules. Those need to change in order for dreads of any verity to be effective again.

I think they wanted to drop GH. GH are too good against other meqs and lesser codices and the same level of victimhood against Taudar as everyone else. That's the bottom line. With that.

I have postulated the same question in the BA thread: to balance for Taudar or not? If not, then I feel like the next 2-3 years is going to be a broken record. Everyone was hoping Tyranids would break the meta. LOL to that.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.

If they still have the ability to split fire that no other devastators have then they should be more expensive. Right now they are silly because they have cheaper weapons and cheaper base points costs yet can get one more heavy weapon, a special weapon for the squad leader AND split fire. It is things like this that lead the fact that there is zero balance in the game, especially for space marine armies that can much more easily be balanced with each other and aren't.

Skriker

 Anpu42 wrote:
PLEASE Let Us Not Spend The Day Talking About How Much Better Grey Hunters Are Than Everyone Else!

Lets try to get beck what I tried to start yesterday: Dreadnaughts.

An attempt to get back on Subject:
Dreadnaughts:
I want them to be basically left alone, but with some minor things.
>Able to take a Second Power Fist
>Power Weapons as an option
>Wolf Claws an Option
>Venerable Dreadnaughts being able to Frost Weapons
>Björn getting either an extra Hull Point or a Belt of Russ [4++ Save]
>Björn getting his Wolf Claw back.

Martel.... With regards to Grey hunters, you say much better, we say they are different.
Just agree to disagree and let it drop please.

We are actually discussing everything but Grey Hunters, (dreadnoughts, characters and TWC) but you keep trying to drag it aroundLet it go!!

Go buy some new GW Knights and stomp Space Wolves with those!!

So far nobody is wishlisting for uber badass super grey hunters, infact we are looking around at the other fluffier stuff and wondering what could be fun to use.

So please stop.... just stop. And lesser codices will hopefully ge better with new codices..

 dantay_xv wrote:

So far nobody is wishlisting for uber badass super grey hunters, infact we are looking around at the other fluffier stuff and wondering what could be fun to use.

You already have them, so the constant defense of Grey Hunters as "only different" would, in my opinion, qualify as wishing for "über badass super Grey Hunters".

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:


I play against one Space Wolf player and it's generally back and forth but I've never annihilated a GH squad like you just spent your post saying I should. I know what my ASM's can do, I play the army, telling me all this doesn't change the fact that I've lost combats to GH's repeatedly. Perhaps it's just how my luck runs when I square off against Space Wolves, I don't know, but a consistent ass kicking by the same unit in every game they're fielded sort of makes you wonder. But, in the interest of keeping things on track...

I said you should win combat, not annihilate. I'll give you that they are too good to get annihilated. Anyway, it could be that SW are your Achilles heel. Mine is Necrons. I haven't beaten a Necron army in who knows how long. Its always been a tie or a loss, regardless of what army faction or list I bring.

It certainly seems that way, I admit that given the odds I should be winning close combats, but I swear to you I can barely dent that damn army.

---------


As for dealing with Tau/Tau, Tau, TauDar with an updated Space Wolf codex, I don't think it'll be too hard. I've read/seen numerous lists and tactics that call for large amounts of drop pod troops to saturate a Tau gunline and even with their interceptor shenanigans the Tau are generally caught on their back foot the following turn. I mean, you can't really upgrade the shooting capabilities of the codex without truly breaking the entire damn thing...so I don't know really. Tau hate close combat and Space Wolves do it pretty well, couple that with some decent firepower and you could make something work.

I suppose you could give Wolf Guard access to Multi meltas or other heavy weapons if that would be worth it, make them relentless for drops if they take those weapons. But make it so they can't take terminator armor at all if they go that route. Have a RP access an ability akin to the ADL antenna so that drop pod based lists can show up earlier than normal? Who knows, am I even making sense?

@ almighty walrus No, we have pointed out that there are plenty of disadvantages to using them, or atleast tactics to mitigate their skill set, we have pointed out that they dont get some of the toys/abilities that other codex tactiical marines get, we have pointed out that like tactical marines they require a certin play style to get the best out of them, the same as using a tactical marine army etc etc and on and on and yadda yadda yadda....

I take it that you just like to ignore or gloss over most of what others have saiid... and coninue on your blinkered path of seeing only what you want to see.

And yes we defend the right to use grey hunters... not because they are uber badass, because they arent, they have a select skill set which they are good at... but because people like yourself and Martel keep unfairly maligning them as something they arent.

Can we go back to the topic of dreadnaughts please?

Yes let’s keep on subject

I would love for us to get Ironclads and Contemptor like dreads with Melee Weapon Choices
>Frost Weapons
>Power Weapons
>Wolf Claws
>Power Fist
>Chain Fist
>Thunder Hammers
>Possibly even Storm Shields
I would not even mind paying a premium for them like Wolf Guard, they would just be fluffy and look cool.

I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]

 dantay_xv wrote:
@ almighty walrus No, we have pointed out that there are plenty of disadvantages to using them, or atleast tactics to mitigate their skill set, we have pointed out that they dont get some of the toys/abilities that other codex tactiical marines get, we have pointed out that like tactical marines they require a certin play style to get the best out of them, the same as using a tactical marine army etc etc and on and on and yadda yadda yadda....

I take it that you just like to ignore or gloss over most of what others have saiid... and coninue on your blinkered path of seeing only what you want to see.

And yes we defend the right to use grey hunters... not because they are uber badass, because they arent, they have a select skill set which they are good at... but because people like yourself and Martel keep unfairly maligning them as something they arent.

Can we go back to the topic of dreadnaughts please?

You know what? This was the FIRST LINE of my post: "I think they wanted to drop GH."

But since you wanted to go back there, here we go.

"but because people like yourself and Martel keep unfairly maligning them as something they arent."

They are better than tactical marines in every way. Better weapons loadout. Better at HTH. What is the "play style" for tacticals you are talking about? What "play style" helps a unit that has crappy shooting and is helpless in HTH? What are these weaknesses you keep claiming? Because I scrolled back and I didn't see anything legitimate. And by "tactics to mitigate their abilities" you mean "don't ever think about assaulting them. Ever". How much should that ability cost? Unassaultable troops?

If you don't think GH are completely OP compared to other meqs, you are not looking at this objectively at all. I think all of your "disadvantages" are crap. In practice there are no disadvantages. Just benefits everyone else has to game around. Because Wolves.

Note that this is why SW are THE drop pod army. Because GH don't give a feth what they drop in next to. Genestealers? No problem. CSM? No problem. BA? No problem. Orks? Super duper no problem. All the Salamander fan boys can't get away with half the crap the SW can get away with.

As for dreadnoughts, you are not getting buffs for them that prevent them from being glanced out easily. There's not much more to discuss. There are two relevant questions in 6th: can it absorb lots of shooting? and does it shoot at lot itself? That answer is no to both of these for dreads, and so they are bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.

If they still have the ability to split fire that no other devastators have then they should be more expensive. Right now they are silly because they have cheaper weapons and cheaper base points costs yet can get one more heavy weapon, a special weapon for the squad leader AND split fire. It is things like this that lead the fact that there is zero balance in the game, especially for space marine armies that can much more easily be balanced with each other and aren't.

Skriker

I find myself massing so much fire against WS and Riptides that splitting fire is never in my wildest dreams. It might as well be a free ability.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]

Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]

Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.

These are Space Wolf players we are talking about.....

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]

Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.

Yes a 300+ point Dread armed with a Frost Axe and no Ranged Weapons!

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]

Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.

Yes a 300+ point Dread armed with a Frost Axe and no Ranged Weapons!

Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.

I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.

This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]

Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.

Yes a 300+ point Dread armed with a Frost Axe and no Ranged Weapons!

Linkies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552301.page

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

Actually they can.
Podded Dreadnaughts:
>Multi-Melta: In a Pod kills most tanks
>Assault Cannon: With Storm Bolter or Heavy Flamer can is goo vs. Hordes and Transports
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
>Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer and a Heavy Flamer kills Scouts Dead.
The Rifleman Dread:
>4x Twin linked Autocannons can do a number on Transports and even Flyers to a limited extent.
>I have also been playing with a Pure-Breed Rifleman with a Twin-Linked Autocannon and a Twin Linked Las Cannons. It can take of most things including tanks.
Mortis Dreadnaught:
>Two Twin Linked Las Cannons make it a good Tank/MC hunter and even a passable Anti-Air Platform in emergencies.
>Two Missile Launchers are great for taking down Swarms and Transports.
>Twin Plasma Cannons make good 2+/MC Killers especially with a BS5.
Contemptor Dreadnaught:
>2x Twin Linked Las cannons with Skyfire

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

Actually they can.
Podded Dreadnaughts:
>Multi-Melta: In a Pod kills most tanks
>Assault Cannon: With Storm Bolter or Heavy Flamer can is goo vs. Hordes and Transports
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
>Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer and a Heavy Flamer kills Scouts Dead.
The Rifleman Dread:
>4x Twin linked Autocannons can do a number on Transports and even Flyers to a limited extent.
>I have also been playing with a Pure-Breed Rifleman with a Twin-Linked Autocannon and a Twin Linked Las Cannons. It can take of most things including tanks.
Mortis Dreadnaught:
>Two Twin Linked Las Cannons make it a good Tank/MC hunter and even a passable Anti-Air Platform in emergencies.
>Two Missile Launchers are great for taking down Swarms and Transports.
>Twin Plasma Cannons make good 2+/MC Killers especially with a BS5.
Contemptor Dreadnaught:
>2x Twin Linked Las cannons with Skyfire

Those loadouts are all very marginal firepower, with the exception skyfire lascannons. Do you ever stop to look at just how bad a single multi-melta really is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

You are seriously invalidating everything you say. Getting lucky is not a validation for a tactic. And claiming to kill 4 models with a 3 shot weapons is just... whatever.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?

3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.

As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]