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 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?

3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.

As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]

You don't even play against competitive liists. Why are your experiences valid again? We've been over this. Over many games, mathhammer is always right. Whether you stomp your feet and claim otherwise or not. Dreads have negligible ranged capabilities. And if someone DID care, they'd just glance your dread out.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?

3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.

As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]

Your experiences don't mean diddly squat when you're faced with Mathhammer. The maths always comes out on top.
It's like me saying '6+ armour saves are better than 3+ armour saves because I get more lucky with a 6+'.
No, 3+ is better. And, you're killing 4 models with 5 shots? What are you killing, Gretchin? Because if it's anything with a 4+ armour save you're pretty much not gonna manage that.

Orks, I think. But the heavy bolter only wounds 66% of the time. And that's before cover.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?

3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.

As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]

Your experiences don't mean diddly squat when you're faced with Mathhammer. The maths always comes out on top.
It's like me saying '6+ armour saves are better than 3+ armour saves because I get more lucky with a 6+'.
No, 3+ is better. And, you're killing 4 models with 5 shots? What are you killing, Gretchin? Because if it's anything with a 4+ armour save you're pretty much not gonna manage that.

Usualy Orks and Also I usualy don't thow 1 Dread ves a Ork Mob.
Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.
I can take my Two Fluffy Dreads
>Twin Linked Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter
>Twin Linked Heavy Flamer and Heavy Flamer and take out a lot of Units in one Turn if I can work it right [and I have]
Then follow it up with an assualt. Usualy I can Assinate the Nob with the Flamers iof his is not up front, but even so it only takes me about two Assualt Phases to Finish off the Mob with a sweeping advance.
But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.

>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer

3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD

I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.

How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?

3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.

As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]

Your experiences don't mean diddly squat when you're faced with Mathhammer. The maths always comes out on top.
It's like me saying '6+ armour saves are better than 3+ armour saves because I get more lucky with a 6+'.
No, 3+ is better. And, you're killing 4 models with 5 shots? What are you killing, Gretchin? Because if it's anything with a 4+ armour save you're pretty much not gonna manage that.

Usualy Orks and Also I usualy don't thow 1 Dread ves a Ork Mob.
Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.
I can take my Two Fluffy Dreads
>Twin Linked Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter
>Twin Linked Heavy Flamer and Heavy Flamer and take out a lot of Units in one Turn if I can work it right [and I have]
Then follow it up with an assualt. Usualy I can Assinate the Nob with the Flamers iof his is not up front, but even so it only takes me about two Assualt Phases to Finish off the Mob with a sweeping advance.
But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't

We're not talking about assaulting over 2 turns.
We're talking about the viability of Dreadnoughts at range, and you've literally just said the only way you win is by assaulting them.
Orks.
The ones that can't hurt you in combat. To use another example, that's like me saying I charged a squad of Assault Terminators into a squad of Gretchin and won.

So the Ork player is sit there and let you do this? Tactics arguments go both ways. That's why we assume equal tactics and go with Mathhammer. Why haven't the Lootas reduced your dreads to piles of junk by now? Because they are good targets for Lootas.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.

But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't

You've just demonstrated how you don't understand how Mathhammer works, so yeah.

First off, there's the concept of standard distribution.

Secondly, no one's ever said it's impossible to do what you say, only highly improbable, and thus not reliable enough to plan around.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.

But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't

You've just demonstrated how you don't understand how Mathhammer works, so yeah.

First off, there's the concept of standard distribution.

Secondly, no one's ever said it's impossible to do what you say, only highly improbable, and thus not reliable enough to plan around.

Still can't kill 4 models with a heavy bolter.

Martel732 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.

But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't

You've just demonstrated how you don't understand how Mathhammer works, so yeah.

First off, there's the concept of standard distribution.

Secondly, no one's ever said it's impossible to do what you say, only highly improbable, and thus not reliable enough to plan around.

Still can't kill 4 models with a heavy bolter.

^^This

It's clear that we are practically playing two different games here. You group allows list tailoring and don't play competitive lists. This is a critical difference when different people go to analyze the merits of any given unit.

This is also probably the reason that you don't understand how obnoxious GH are and why some people are a bit bent by the wish listing on this thread.

Unless you went mortis and had twin linked heavy bolters on each arm?
6 twin linked shots

 dantay_xv wrote:
Unless you went mortis and had twin linked heavy bolters on each arm?
6 twin linked shots

He's talking a normal Dread, and even then he's not hitting all those HB shots.
Then he's only getting 66% wounds.
Then cover. I doubt that's 4 dead Orks.

 dantay_xv wrote:
Unless you went mortis and had twin linked heavy bolters on each arm?
6 twin linked shots

Yeah, that's true, but you just spent an elite slot for 6 S5 shots. That'll show the Tau who's boss! /eyeroll

It would be better with a flamestorm cannon on each arm, thyat would make your orks nice and toasty lol

 dantay_xv wrote:
It would be better with a flamestorm cannon on each arm, thyat would make your orks nice and toasty lol

BA have something similar. It's great against foot troops, but crap against a mech list. So, in a TAC list, do you risk it or not? That's a decision a lot of posters don't seem to be taking into account. They just magically have this dreadnought in a list against Orks. Personally, I wouldn't touch a SW dreadnought with a 10 meter pole.

So, yeah, changes we hope for with the new codex...

We can all agree that Jaws is going to get nuked into oblivion given the amount of rage that spell creates, so what would you all want to replace it? Buff spell? Another template?

I'd like to see Wolf priests worth taking, but I think that's a shot in the dark given the myriad of other things you can spend points on.

 Frankenberry wrote:
So, yeah, changes we hope for with the new codex...

We can all agree that Jaws is going to get nuked into oblivion given the amount of rage that spell creates, so what would you all want to replace it? Buff spell? Another template?

I'd like to see Wolf priests worth taking, but I think that's a shot in the dark given the myriad of other things you can spend points on.

Take your CRB powers like everyone else. They can get divination, what else do you want? C:SM lost their null zone so why should the other chapters get special powers?

Yeah, of course, why didn't I think of that. Not like I'm trying to discuss other option or anything, thanks for clarifying the issue.

I too would like Wolf priests to be worth taking.

After all they are apothecaries aswell as chaplains, if they could give feel no pain to the unit they are assigned to as well as litanies of war that would be cool.

While I was working on something else I though about those games where I used the pair.
>I have never willing get into an Assault with Ork Mobs of more than 20 and never usually do thanks to Grey Hunters, Land Speeder Typhoons or Long Fangs. Though this should have little bearing on 6th Edition
>These game we during 5th were I could count on 2-5 Fearless Kills a Turn.

On the point of List Tailoring:
I say I am taking My Space Wolves
Billy Bob Says he is taking His Orks with Flyers

We make list, which is the extent of our list tailoring.

The extent of list tailoring for me is my friend asking what army I want to fight against.. He has a minimum 1500 points of each army in 40K, guard orks and eldar are many thousands and he has full battle companies of deathwing, ravenwing and dark angels.
Generally I say whatever he wants to use or I fancy horde busting, bring on the orks or nids...
We both go off write up armies and then exchange lists so we see what we each have taken and play.
And 80% of the time he wins,but I don't care because I have fun

 dantay_xv wrote:
I too would like Wolf priests to be worth taking.

After all they are apothecaries aswell as chaplains, if they could give feel no pain to the unit they are assigned to as well as litanies of war that would be cool.

So Chaplains +1?

My list tailoring is usually partial.
I'll have a TAC list and adapt it sort of towards whatever army I'll play, and they'll do the same.
Still doesn't stop me from knowing which units are good in a tournament environment though.

As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.

On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!

On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.

Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?

The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.

Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.

At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
I too would like Wolf priests to be worth taking.

After all they are apothecaries aswell as chaplains, if they could give feel no pain to the unit they are assigned to as well as litanies of war that would be cool.

So Chaplains +1?

I think this would be ridiculous, like having a Librarian/Chaplain that could give Litanies as well as buff with psychic powers.

Cheers for that Anpu, I always thought litanies of war or whatever its called could be used in melee.

I would love for Wolf Priest to give FNP, but it would not bother me if they did not get it.

 Anpu42 wrote:
As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.

On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!

On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.

As I said, if you want to make him better check out these links.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552301.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/552309.page#6051118
Both have rules in them, and various amendments to Dreadnoughts including some funky relics.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
My list tailoring is usually partial.
I'll have a TAC list and adapt it sort of towards whatever army I'll play, and they'll do the same.
Still doesn't stop me from knowing which units are good in a tournament environment though.

That's not tailoring, because you don't know the exact opposition codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?

The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.

Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.

At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.

That's called being more efficient, not a liability. That's why the so-called disadvantage of Long Fangs is not a big deal. Not being able to take worthless bolter marines is NOT a disadvantage.