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Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.

There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.

I actually really like that idea Martel, I will need to look up furious charge. And look at the codices to see what the points costs are like
It also puts the emphasis on the SW player to be aggressive too.
You would still need to take counter attackers as they are scoring units.

But I do like your idea

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.

There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.

Agreed on this, the only problem with giving them (I'm talking units of 5 bikers) 10 STR5 hits is that they're going to completely muller MEQ. I wouldn't give them specials (ranged) as they're intended to be close combat, but probably the ability to take them with two power weapons/one power weapon and one power fist (similar to Crusader Squads).

 dantay_xv wrote:
I actually really like that idea Martel, I will need to look up furious charge. And look at the codices to see what the points costs are like
It also puts the emphasis on the SW player to be aggressive too.
You would still need to take counter attackers as they are scoring units.

But I do like your idea

I try to be fair when suggesting things to actually make *fixes*. This version of the swift claw requires some movement and tactical acumen to use properly. It rewards aggressive play, the opposite of the grey hunter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.

There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.

Agreed on this, the only problem with giving them (I'm talking units of 5 bikers) 10 STR5 hits is that they're going to completely muller MEQ. I wouldn't give them specials (ranged) as they're intended to be close combat, but probably the ability to take them with two power weapons/one power weapon and one power fist (similar to Crusader Squads).

Well, it's not much worse than being grav gunned by C:SM. And they have to get within range of all kinds of nasty stuff to do their assaults. Mainly I like the S5 aspect as a hedge against MCs, which are a bit unhinged imo, especially against choppy meq lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
I actually really like that idea Martel, I will need to look up furious charge. And look at the codices to see what the points costs are like
It also puts the emphasis on the SW player to be aggressive too.
You would still need to take counter attackers as they are scoring units.

But I do like your idea

I try to be fair when suggesting things to actually make *fixes*. This version of the swift claw requires some movement and tactical acumen to use properly. It rewards aggressive play, the opposite of the grey hunter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.

There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.

Agreed on this, the only problem with giving them (I'm talking units of 5 bikers) 10 STR5 hits is that they're going to completely muller MEQ. I wouldn't give them specials (ranged) as they're intended to be close combat, but probably the ability to take them with two power weapons/one power weapon and one power fist (similar to Crusader Squads).

Well, it's not much worse than being grav gunned by C:SM. And they have to get within range of all kinds of nasty stuff to do their assaults. Mainly I like the S5 aspect as a hedge against MCs, which are a bit unhinged imo, especially against choppy meq lists.

I'd rather get gravgunned at T3 by a S4 gun 4-6 times than get hit 10 times at S5 and be engaged in melee.
It's a good hedge against MCs but I think they'd be better off having 2 power weapons/some sort of grenade/wargear that gives them +1 WS on the charge (again a reward for aggressiveness). This would slightly balance it but also make sure people are paying for the upgrade and it also offsets their generally low WS and will help them hit MCs in combat instead of wounding.

Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.

Extremely fast moving, tough bikes with TL boltguns that hit with 2 automatic S5 attacks and then 3 S4 attacks straight afterwards. What's not horrible about it?

Out of curiosity, if boltguns arent assault weapons, can you shoot with them and then assault ? I mean when using a bike

 dantay_xv wrote:
Out of curiosity, if boltguns arent assault weapons, can you shoot with them and then assault ? I mean when using a bike

Yep, as you're relentless.

For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.



Now as far as the 6th Edition Codex: Space Wolves Fast Attacks

Thunderwolf Cavalry:
>Price Drop
>Allow all of them to take MotW; this would be fluffy, not efficient, but Fluffy.
>Be able to take a War Shield [5++ Save] as a replacement for the Bolt Pistol.
>Replace the Bolt Pistol with a Bolt Gun [Wolf Dragoons]
>Allow a pair of Fenrisin Wolves/Cyberwolf per TWC Model, mostly the cool factor.
>Cyberwolf Upgrade giving them a 6+ FNP

Swiftclaws:
>A Jink save would be nice
>A price drop
>Attack Bike Option: Assault Cannon, for the Cool Factor and maybe we would get a Swiftclaw Box

Skyclaws:
>Price Drop
>Loose the MotW. As much as I love it, it does not belong with Blood Claws of any type.
>War Shields [5++ Save]
>Take a Wolf Guard Pack Leader with a Jump Pack

Land Speeders:
>Points Drop
>Land Speeder Monsoon: Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, once more for the Cool Factor

Fenrisian Wolf Pack:
>Able to take all Cyberwolves

Heavy Fighter/Ground Support Flyer based on the same model:
>Ground Support Flyer: Something like a A-10, Twin-Linked Assault Cannons, Strafing and a lot of bombs and AV12
>Heavy Fighter: Something like a P-47 Thunder Bolt, 2x Twin-Linked Auto Cannons and or Twin-Linked Las-Cannons and AV12

I personally would like to see all of the "claw" units given the option to take shields of some sort. Mostly because it would look badass and it would change up their rolls a bit from how they currently are and possibly make them more enticing.

I also think that the new IG codex will be the ultimate measuring stick for just how close to Tau and Eldar they want to take the game. There is so much possibility for abuse into that codex. Much like when the last one came out.

For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.

...
Please stop asking for Space Wolf units to be better than Vanilla SM units in such huge ways. If you're stupid enough to allow a Dreadnought to get that close to your bikes then you deserve to get assaulted.
You also have to consider that you're completely denying assault to a very assault-based unit (the dreadnought) on something that it's pretty much made to kill. There's also fact that no other unit in the game completely denies assault except flyers, and they have a reason for it. What makes Swift Claws better than the (far more esteemed and veteran) Black Knights of the DA? If they don't get that rule then there literally are no bikers that will.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.

...
Please stop asking for Space Wolf units to be better than Vanilla SM units in such huge ways. If you're stupid enough to allow a Dreadnought to get that close to your bikes then you deserve to get assaulted.
You also have to consider that you're completely denying assault to a very assault-based unit (the dreadnought) on something that it's pretty much made to kill. There's also fact that no other unit in the game completely denies assault except flyers, and they have a reason for it. What makes Swift Claws better than the (far more esteemed and veteran) Black Knights of the DA? If they don't get that rule then there literally are no bikers that will.

No that is not what I want for Codex Space Wolves, just my personal Swiftclaws. Even deploying second and placing my Swiftclaws as far away from the Dreads [I usaly face 2-5 of them] one finds away to Assualt My Swiftclaw Pack. I an tired of having to buy Melta Bombs for an Infantry Hunting Unit.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.

Extremely fast moving, tough bikes with TL boltguns that hit with 2 automatic S5 attacks and then 3 S4 attacks straight afterwards. What's not horrible about it?

It still has to close the gap. It can't start melting your list from its own deployment zone. They don't ignore dangerous terrain like White Scars. Maybe they would end up more than 21pts/model. It's just a base idea.

Martel732 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.

Extremely fast moving, tough bikes with TL boltguns that hit with 2 automatic S5 attacks and then 3 S4 attacks straight afterwards. What's not horrible about it?

It still has to close the gap. It can't start melting your list from its own deployment zone. They don't ignore dangerous terrain like White Scars. Maybe they would end up more than 21pts/model. It's just a base idea.

It still gets into combat about turn 2 if you deploy them forward and who cares if they don't ignore dangerous terrain? They have the movement distance to drive around it.

Okay. Maybe it's undercosted a bit. This thread is more thought than GW seems to put into their models, though. I'd have to see it in 4 or 5 games to know for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. Maybe it's undercosted a bit. This thread is more thought than GW seems to put into their models, though. I'd have to see it in 4 or 5 games to know for sure.

I'd go as high as 25-30ppm, Terminator Territory, especially considering their high toughness. The -1 WS + BS don't mean anything when you realise they have TL guns and 2 HoW hits automatically.

Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.

Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.

The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.

How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.

What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.

Well that should tell you how much we use them

Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.

Yes I agree with that.

The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.

Yes I agree with that.

How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.

Fluffy: No...not really
Cool: Yes
Adding to Survival: Yes

What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.

or a +1 Strength or...somthing

 Anpu42 wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.

Well that should tell you how much we use them

Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.

Yes I agree with that.

The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.

Yes I agree with that.

How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.

Fluffy: No...not really
Cool: Yes
Adding to Survival: Yes

What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.

or a +1 Strength or...somthing

No, not increased Strength.
The Heavy Chainsword does that.
And why would they add something that isn't fluffy to a purposely fluffy army book?
NAH SCREW IT, WE'RE PUTTING BAAL PREDATORS IN C:SM, IT'S NOT FLUFFY BUT IT'S COOL!

I must be one of the few SW players that doesn't like MotW. I'd like to see it gone, maybe a special character or something with it.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.

Well that should tell you how much we use them

Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.

Yes I agree with that.

The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.

Yes I agree with that.

How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.

Fluffy: No...not really
Cool: Yes
Adding to Survival: Yes

What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.

or a +1 Strength or...somthing

No, not increased Strength.
The Heavy Chainsword does that.
And why would they add something that isn't fluffy to a purposely fluffy army book?
NAH SCREW IT, WE'RE PUTTING BAAL PREDATORS IN C:SM, IT'S NOT FLUFFY BUT IT'S COOL!

There is a difference between what I was saying is Cool and the Baal Predator Cool.
Ball Predators have no place with any other army [but maybe the Flamer version for Salamander]. It would look out of place.
Drunken Werewolf Space Vikings with Melee Weapons and Shields would not be that out of place.
All it would take is a change in fluff for that, but GW would never change fluff so I don’t think it will happen from a fluff perspective.

And the +1 strength on the chainsword would be applicable to all chainswords not just Space Wolves...

Unlees of course the Space Wolves got the liquored up special rule... Fearless and +1 strength, -1WS &-1I for being blootered on Mjod and stampeding blindly into battle

 dantay_xv wrote:
And the +1 strength on the chainsword would be applicable to all chainswords not just Space Wolves...

Sounds good to me
or they could do somthing like back in 2nd ed and give Chain Swords a 5++/6++ save in Melee.

Unlees of course the Space Wolves got the liquored up special rule... Fearless and +1 strength, -1WS &-1I for being blootered on Mjod and stampeding blindly into battle

Saga of the Drunken Highlander!

For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.

Just equip them all with melta bombs. I doubt he will charge them with a dreadnaught again.

People want more viking less wolf. How is putting shields on a few units not doing just that. To me it sounds very viking and fluffy. Especially putting the shields on the young head strong recruits that need armor for protection instead of skill.

Some HQ Thoughts:
Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.
Rules Wise:
>Let him pick his Warlord, I don’t think this would be inappropriate. [If not Logan give it at least to Björn]
>Give him 4 Wounds
Wargear:
>The Axe Morkai: Just making it a Mastercraft Frost Axe the Strikes at Initiative would be the simplest, maybe add Flesh Bane or Armor Bane.

Ragnar: There is not a lot that really needs to be done other than a point’s adjustment and a new sculpt.
Rules: I can’t think of any, though I would not turn down EW
Wargear:
>Frost-Fang: Mastercrafted Chainsword Rends on a 5+. It would fit his Model and with his large number of opening Attacks should be able to pull off a few.
>Svangir and Ulfgir: Rending Cyberwolves
>Runic Armor: Give him some; He leads a Great Company after all.

Ulric the Slayer: I love the old Sculpt, so other than a points fix he does not need much.
Rules:
>Oath of War: Give it to him, he should have it.
>Wounds: Give him 3
War gear:
>Mastercraft his Weapons
>Salves an Balms: Give Feel no Pain

Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good
Rules:
>Unlocks Thunderwolf Cavalry as Elites [They are basically Wolf Guard after all]
Wargear:
>Belt of Russ: He either needs a 4++ Save or EW.
>Wolf Claws: Give them Rending

Njal: Nice Sculpt, though both a Terminator version and a Runic Armor version would be great.
Rules:
>Master of All Runes: Level-3 Psyker
Wargear:
>Staff of the Storm Caller: 24” Bubble and make it a Force Staff with Flesh Bane
>>Note: Make Normal Rune Priest 12” Bubble
>Belt of Russ (?): Takes care of the need for Terminator Armor

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not saying Swift Claws shouldn't have some better incentive to take them, but jink is not the answer.

All bikes have jink... do swiftclaws have a special rule taking it away or something?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Njal: Nice Sculpt, though both a Terminator version and a Runic Armor version would be great.
Rules:
>Master of All Runes: Level-3 Psyker
Wargear:
>Staff of the Storm Caller: 24” Bubble and make it a Force Staff with Flesh Bane
>>Note: Make Normal Rune Priest 12” Bubble
>Belt of Russ (?): Takes care of the need for Terminator Armor

I can agree with the rest of the stuff, but the bubble really needs to go away, or Rune Priests need to be much more expensive. Further, there's no Librarian I know of other than Loth that has a built-in Invulnerable Save outside of Terminator Armour, so that probably won't happen either.

100% agree about Logan Grimanr, I have a Legion Praetor waiting to be turned into the old wolf, I just need to figure out how to pleat his hair and beard.

And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble