Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 dantay_xv wrote:
@AllSeeing Skink: I meant that its 1 heavy/special wepon per 5 wolf guard, so by splitting off my cml, or whatever, I potentially lose that wepon for the remining Wolf guard squad leaving them understrength.

Thank you for the clarification on the Wolf Guard ruling. Must bring codex next time.

@Martel: Instead of crap and arguable, please outline why bolters are crap, and other stuff is crap, or arguable.
What annoys a lot of people is when people like yourself make such sweeping statements without back up or examples.

It was a summary. Bolters being crap is its own thread.

The poster up above had the right of it. SW "chapter tactics" are incredibly unbalanced. They do nothing to shooty lists at all. But god forbid you have a list that tries to do any assault at all. Unless you have MCs, you probably just lost.

Martel732 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
@AllSeeing Skink: I meant that its 1 heavy/special wepon per 5 wolf guard, so by splitting off my cml, or whatever, I potentially lose that wepon for the remining Wolf guard squad leaving them understrength.

Thank you for the clarification on the Wolf Guard ruling. Must bring codex next time.

@Martel: Instead of crap and arguable, please outline why bolters are crap, and other stuff is crap, or arguable.
What annoys a lot of people is when people like yourself make such sweeping statements without back up or examples.

It was a summary. Bolters being crap is its own thread.

The poster up above had the right of it. SW "chapter tactics" are incredibly unbalanced. They do nothing to shooty lists at all. But god forbid you have a list that tries to do any assault at all. Unless you have MCs, you probably just lost.

BT are the ones who deserve counter-attack to be honest. Or at least something that didn't make us completely underpowered...
But anyway, I'd much rather pay 1pt for counter-attack, chainswords, a free special weapon, acute senses and have the ability to pay 3pts for +1 LD than have
(shudder)
Crusader, Iron Will.
There's also the fact that Black Templars have the worst SCs in the book.
The only redeeming part of Black Templars are 5-man las/plas squads in Razorbacks and even then they're not that good...
Be happy that you have insanely OP troops. I'm just hoping for a Black Templars supplement that will fix this mess.

Okay, I'll give this a shot.

Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will

Does this need explanation? Neither of these rules DO anything meaningful. As in help me win the game. Kill the enemy or prevent me from being killed.

>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.

Tank hunter is way more impressive than this rule. Basically bolters don't stop anything that I care about stopping as a marine player. Bolters don't hurt other meqs worth a damn, Mechdar are immune, MCs don't care, Riptides don't care, the list goes on. 24" range rapid fire weapons S4 hits aren't scaring anyone. Ever. Do bolters scare you? I didn't think so. Even still, tank hunter is not as game-changing as counterattack/CCW.

>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain

Talk to the BA about how much FNP is helping against the top lists. Hint: not enough.

>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.

They can't scout ASM. Or terminator. Or ANYTHING ELSE YOUR OPPONENT MIGHT BE SCARED OF. Stealth? Tau are like "Nice cover, bro!" This one pisses me off, hence the caps.

>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon

Formidable, but not as game changing as counterattack and CCW weapon of SW. As I said, this one was arguable as to which is more valuable.

>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.

Most lists don't cough up for Papa Smurf. Since you get three turns of chapter tactics with no repeats. The abilities themselves aren't that game changing anyway. UM would suck if it weren't for Tiggy.

>White Scars get Hit and Run

Yes, they're boss because of biker pricing.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

You're paying 1 point for a free second weapon, chainswords, acute senses and counter-attack. Please stop complaining that you cost more.

When have I ever complained that we cost more, this is stating we get a Close Combat Weapons and Pay for it.

Also don't big up the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. We get to roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest (great!!) and our characters are rending in challenges (EVEN BETTER).
I will admit the rest of them are very good, but I'd still rather have Grey Hunters to be honest.

So some “Combat Tactics” are better than others. If we went that far why don’t we just have 13 point Marines, 14 point Marines and 15 point Marines.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

You're paying 1 point for a free second weapon, chainswords, acute senses and counter-attack. Please stop complaining that you cost more.

When have I ever complained that we cost more, this is stating we get a Close Combat Weapons and Pay for it.

Also don't big up the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. We get to roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest (great!!) and our characters are rending in challenges (EVEN BETTER).
I will admit the rest of them are very good, but I'd still rather have Grey Hunters to be honest.

So some “Combat Tactics” are better than others. If we went that far why don’t we just have 13 point Marines, 14 point Marines and 15 point Marines.

We should have 13,14, and 15 pt marines by the way these chapter tactics work. The whole idea of game balance is that some tactics are NOT better than others. If unit A, with all rules applies, is more efficacious on the battlefield than B, with all rules applied, then unit A should cost more. Period. No free lunches. The free lunch that the GH get are why people won't shut up about them. They are not fair in comparison to other marines. They cost too little or don't give up enough for their benefits.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines. "

Becouse they are not Normal Villila Space Marines.

Because you aren't paying enough for your +1.

>Yes we are, we cost more than a Space Marine.
>We have no Long Range Capability
>To get a “Sergeant” is cost us an Elite Slot and most likely a Special Weapon.
>We are paying for a Useless USR [Acute Senses]

">Assault Squads: Ours Suck "

Really? Don't get they get that rage power you were pimping for the BA before?

>I was told that and Immediately admitted to my mistake.
>They are over cost [Just like Blood Angels Assault Squad]
>WS3
>Can Not take Sargents

"Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability."

This doesn't seem unfair to you? How exactly is one supposed to handle both excellent shooting and superior counter attack? You are making my objection for me.

No it is not unfair if I am paying for it and we are.

"The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault. "

Yeah, well, they aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'd be happy to massacre you in an army swap.

You are also a Codex behind right now.

See what I highlighted.
You said you were paying enough for what you got.

The problem with saying GH are just like Tac marines with a chapter tactic + special wargear (CCW) and thus only worth 1pt more... those 2 things synergise like mad and so while a CCW might be worth 1pt and counter attack might be considered (one of the better) chapter tactics, together they're worth a lot more than that.... but only against assault armies. It's terrible balance.

As an example, if you charge Tac marines with Hormagaunts, it takes roughly 2 hormagaunts per tac marine for the Hormagaunts to statistically be (slightly) ahead. So 20 Hormagaunts charging 10 Tac Marines.

Against GH, it's 3.5 Hormagaunts. So against 10 GH, it takes 35 Hormagaunts.

Now, Hormagaunts aren't great, I just use them as an example because I have a 'nid army with tons of them, BUT, they do have higher Ini than Marines. God forbid you try and attack GH with something that has equal or lower Ini, then it would legitimately take 3 times as many troops to have equal effectiveness vs GH as Tac marines.

Now, I'm not saying make GH like Tac marines. I don't want that. I've been collecting SW since 2nd edition when they were Ws5 vs Tac marines Ws4. BUT, the way it is now, it's just strangely unbalanced. GH are the rock to the scissors of entire assault based armies. But against shooty armies, they're no better off than Tac marines.

This is just bad balance IMO and I'd like to see it changed. Either bring back something like True Grit, remove Counter Attack, drop the CCW (I don't like that idea because it means you have to modify existing models), or boost all Tac marines up by giving them a CCW or the option of a CCW, so that way Grey Hunters are only 50% better at receiving a charge instead of 300% better (and you might have to rebalance all the assault based armies to make up for it).

Martel732 wrote:
The free lunch that the GH get are why people won't shut up about them. They are not fair in comparison to other marines. They cost too little or don't give up enough for their benefits.

What free Lunch, We have a Chapter Tactic that is worthless, a Chapter Tactic that is Good and a CCW that we are currently Paying for.
You are the one that won’t shut up about it. If Grey Hunter were not brought up every time you post they would no be talking about them.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

>Yes we are, we cost more than a Space Marine.
See what I highlighted.
You said you were paying enough for what you got.

And what what part of that was a complaint, that was a factual observation.

We do cost more than Space Marines [Fact]
I am ok with that [Opinion]
I have never said we should be cheaper, I never complained that we were more expensive. I have even said I would be willing to pay more.

" I have even said I would be willing to pay more. "

Then that is an admission that they are not balanced. That's all anyone is trying to point out. Pay a legitimate price for the abilities of your models. Also, you keep offering up gems like trying to compare C:SM chapter tactics to CCW + counter attack. It's really, really hard to let that go.

Martel732 wrote:
" I have even said I would be willing to pay more. "

Then that is an admission that they are not balanced. That's all anyone is trying to point out. Pay a legitimate price for the abilities of your models.

No that is not and admition of I think they are OP.
It is I like them so much, I would be willing to Pay more for them. Like once would be willing to more for a realy good Pizza
Expecialy if it would cause everyone to Shut up about them!

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.

Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.

Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.

FWIW, in my Hormagaunt example, that means (for the same points of models) the Tac Marines need to kill 8 of them with shooting to get a fair fight once they charge (you can buy 28 Hormagaunts for the cost of a Tac squad). Grey Hunters need to kill... negative 5. You can only buy 30 Hormagaunts for the cost of a GH unit and it takes 35 to kill them assuming they all reach combat alive...

That's just unbalanced.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.

Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.

Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC.

^This and I am a Fluffy player willing to pay the 660 for Hammernairtos
Oh and now the 10 cost 450 for Codex: Spance Marine, Codex: Darke Angels, but not Blood Angels.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.

Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.

Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.

Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.

So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.

SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

Wolf Guard upgrades simply cost too much... SM terminators don't need a nerfing, you're just using (bad) hyperbole.

You have nerfing and you have boosting. SM termies don't need nerfing, Wolf Guard need boosting in the form of cheaper wargear (in certain areas). A WG termie with PW/SB is 33pts, compared to the SM termies which are 40pts bare (but come with PF), it shouldn't cost 30pts to upgrade the WG to TH/SS.

Sure, if you take lots of GH and then balance it by burning 200pts on overpriced Wolf Guard upgrades, you're self balancing the stupidly balanced army book. GH should be worse and Wolf Guard termies should have cheaper upgrades. One thing balanced poorly one way doesn't excuse another option balanced poorly the other way.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.

Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.

Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.

Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.

So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.

SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.

No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.

Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.

Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.

Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.

So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.

SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.

No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

You still don't get it. Don't use the rest of the army. That's what my opponents do.

 Anpu42 wrote:
No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

That's just silly, you don't have to burn 200pts taking 10 Wolf Guard TH and SS. You can just take cheap WG Termies with PW/SB instead, which are actually pretty cheap at 33pts each.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

That's just silly, you don't have to burn 200pts taking 10 Wolf Guard TH and SS. You can just take cheap WG Termies with PW/SB instead, which are actually pretty cheap at 33pts each.

And the little detail of getting to ride in Drop Pods with combi-weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.

So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.

The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.

Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.

Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.

Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.

So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.

SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.

No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

You still don't get it. Don't use the rest of the army. That's what my opponents do.

Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

Also you have the points wrong, 10 SM TH/SS termies are 450pts, 10 WG TH/SS termies are 630pts. Not 400 vs 660. Still bad, but thought I'd clarify.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

Taking competetive choices isn't "WAAC", nor does it stop them from being Space Wolf players. A WAAC player is someone who cheats, bends rules and "forgets" other rules in order to win, hence the all in "win at all costs". Taking good units in a Codex is actually the opposite, as you're sticking to the rules.

You shouldn't be punished for playing a fluffy army, it's just that the bad units in a Codex matter less than the good ones from a competetive point of view. Grey Hunters are more than 1 PPM better than Tactical Marines, hence that matters, whereas TH/SS Terminators are pretty poor as it is, so the discrepancy there doesn't matter as much.

Further, I'd argue that you're punishing my fluffy list by just having Grey Hunters in the list. If I assault a Grey Hunter squad with a Crusader Squad it's a tossup, 3 attacks per model (except you get Overwatch first) means whoever lucks out wins. If you charge me, you'll win. You're also better at shooting than I am, so you're forcing me to come to you.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Cost?

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.

Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?

 Anpu42 wrote:

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

Well that's your problem I guess, Genestealers are good at cracking armour, but you should be getting a swing back and you should be wiping out a few of them with shooting first. Genestealers are 14pts for only 2 attacks, but those attacks are high Ws, high Ini and Rending.

They should be able to tear GH apart given what they are. An expensive, fragile, dedicated CC unit.

Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Co

I already answered several times. They are unbalanced, so putting a cost on them is damned near impossible. If they didn't have counter attack, probably 14.5, if they didn't have the CCW, probably 14pts. With something like True Grit, I'd probably say 15pts. In their current form, it is very hard to say.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.

Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?

Shoot them up good before they get close with around 10-20 boltguns/shotgun and then have a few models left to attack with after all of the rending attacks that impact.

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Cost?

I answered that already: at least 17 pts.

People making good choices does not make them WAAC. Being "fluffy" is self-nerfing, which is great for you, but doesn't help me against the people I play.

Genestealers do not wipe out marine squads anymore, especially GH. Even rarer do they live long enough to assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA Libby
Jump Pack
Force Axe

BA ASM Squad
5 more men
Power axe
Flamer X 2
Hand flamer

BA ASM Squad
Drop Pod
Melta gun
Infernus Pistol X 2

BA ASM Squad
Las/plas razor
Flamer
Hand flamer X 2

Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
Power Axe

BA ASM Squad
Las/plas razor
Flamer
Hand flamer X 2

BA Attack bikes
3 X MM

Baal Pred
Heavy Bolters
Storm Bolter
Dozer

Pred
Lascannon sponsons
Dozer

Furisoso dread
Frag cannon
Magna Grapple
Drop pod

Storm raven
Sponsons
Extra armor

This is a typical TAC BA list I might use. It clocks in at 1815, but I didn't feel like filling in the last 35 pts. Please explain what in the heck I am supposed to do against GH and SW with this list? Other than die?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.

Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?

Shoot them up good before they get close with around 10-20 boltguns/shotgun and then have a few models left to attack with after all of the rending attacks that impact.

See, there's the slight issue of not having both BP/CCW and a Bolter/Shotgun due to not being Grey Hunters. You know, the thing we've been saying all along?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

Well that's your problem I guess, Genestealers are good at cracking armour, but you should be getting a swing back and you should be wiping out a few of them with shooting first. Genestealers are 14pts for only 2 attacks, but those attacks are high Ws, high Ini and Rending.

They should be able to tear GH apart given what they are. An expensive, fragile, dedicated CC unit.

Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Co

I already answered several times. They are unbalanced, so putting a cost on them is damned near impossible. If they didn't have counter attack, probably 14.5, if they didn't have the CCW, probably 14pts. With something like True Grit, I'd probably say 15pts. In their current form, it is very hard to say.

At least 17. Maybe 18 or 19. That's how huge their assault impact is. Sorry about your luck vs Eldar. Guess maybe you should be less choppy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army

You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.

Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.

And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.

They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.

Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?

Even my BA don't get a feth about genestealers. I really feel like we don't play the same game. That wasn't for you. That was for the poster talking about having squads wiped out by them. Which is frankly laughable.