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DOOMONYOU wrote:
Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
No it is GH that are the problem.

They're better against every single army due to the fact that they're good at everything for 1 more point.
They're undercosted, overpowered and need a nerf, big time.
For once, I'm gonna say that Phil Kelly fethed up.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
No it is GH that are the problem.

They're better against every single army due to the fact that they're good at everything for 1 more point.
They're undercosted, overpowered and need a nerf, big time.
For once, I'm gonna say that Phil Kelly fethed up.

For once? 4th edition skimmerspam Eldar and 6th edition Wave serpents isn't bad either?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
No it is GH that are the problem.

They're better against every single army due to the fact that they're good at everything for 1 more point.
They're undercosted, overpowered and need a nerf, big time.
For once, I'm gonna say that Phil Kelly fethed up.

For once? 4th edition skimmerspam Eldar and 6th edition Wave serpents isn't bad either?

4th edition was like, 10 years ago.
And, okay, Wave Serpents were bad but there are a number of other viable builds in the Eldar army list other than Serpent Spam, unlike C:SW where GH are your only good troops choice.

You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

I don't think SW need their own flyer. Just access to those that already exist for SM armies. The stalker tanks wouldn't be a bad option either if only they weren't one per slot. Squadron options would make these guys more attractive.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I don't think SW need their own flyer. Just access to those that already exist for SM armies. The stalker tanks wouldn't be a bad option either if only they weren't one per slot. Squadron options would make these guys more attractive.

I do agree with that
Thoough I was looking at the Fire Falcon and the Storm Eagle this monring, both are Imperial Armor. With those we realy don't need a Flyer.
Yes Hunters/Stalkers[and for that fact Predators] should be in Squadrens.

 Anpu42 wrote:
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:

Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:

Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?

No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:

Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?

No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.

This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:

Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?

No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.

This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.

And that point had been beaten to death.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:

Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?

No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.

This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.

And that point had been beaten to death.

And yet we have people insisting that there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters and that we just need to learn to play better.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.

And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:

Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?

No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.

This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.

And that point had been beaten to death.

Then please stop denying it.

At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

How about we make fire warriors a lot more expensive, cos they can shoot tac's off the board huh? They need nerfed too? right?

Back on topic, I am looking at a Caestus assault ram for my guys for 2 reasons, 1 terminators and skyclaws dont count s bulky when transported so you can throw 2 of the buggers in there and 2. Its not a nightmare to build as I have heard that the Storm Eagle can be.

I do like the Fire Raptor as a support unit to plough the path for my tanks etc, but according to IA:


Relic of the Armoury (non-Horus Heresy era only)
Fire Raptors are rare and highly valued war machines, and those few Chapters with access to them are fortunate to possess even a handful.
Most are ancient beyond reckoning, while a few are newly wrought and of mysterious provenance. Both types are so venerated that they are only ever committed to battle with the express blessing of the Chapter’s most senior officers, one of whom must oversee their deployment in person in order to ensure the relic is afforded all due respect and that the proper machine supplications are made.
One Relic of the Armoury may be taken in the army’s primary detachment, within the usual provisions of the army list. Further Relic vehicles may be chosen, in which case the detachment must also include a Keeper of Relics
purchased as an HQ choice. This character must be a Master of the Forge in a Codex: Space Marines army, an Interrogator-Chaplain in a Codex: Dark Angels army, a Reclusiarch in a Codex: Blood Angels army, a Rune
Priest with the Saga of the Beastslayer in a Codex: Space Wolves army, or a Warpsmith in a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army.

So you need 1 rune priest to take it, which is fine if you are running rune priests

 dantay_xv wrote:
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

How about we make fire warriors a lot more expensive, cos they can shoot tac's off the board huh? They need nerfed too? right?

Drop Pods. Now what?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Back on topic, I am looking at a Caestus assault ram for my guys for 2 reasons, 1 terminators and skyclaws dont count s bulky when transported so you can throw 2 of the buggers in there and 2. Its not a nightmare to build as I have heard that the Storm Eagle can be.

I do like the Fire Raptor as a support unit to plough the path for my tanks etc, but according to IA:


Relic of the Armoury (non-Horus Heresy era only)
Fire Raptors are rare and highly valued war machines, and those few Chapters with access to them are fortunate to possess even a handful.
Most are ancient beyond reckoning, while a few are newly wrought and of mysterious provenance. Both types are so venerated that they are only ever committed to battle with the express blessing of the Chapter’s most senior officers, one of whom must oversee their deployment in person in order to ensure the relic is afforded all due respect and that the proper machine supplications are made.
One Relic of the Armoury may be taken in the army’s primary detachment, within the usual provisions of the army list. Further Relic vehicles may be chosen, in which case the detachment must also include a Keeper of Relics purchased as an HQ choice. This character must be a Master of the Forge in a Codex: Space Marines army, an Interrogator-Chaplain in a Codex: Dark Angels army, a Reclusiarch in a Codex: Blood Angels army, a Rune Priest with the Saga of the Beastslayer in a Codex: Space Wolves army, or a Warpsmith in a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army.

So you need 1 rune priest to take it, which is fine if you are running rune priests

The only problem I have with the Caestus assault ram is the fact it is actually easy to block the front doors with the burning wreckage of something you rammed and the having the Caestus assault ram getting taken out trapping everyone inside.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And yet we have people insisting that there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters and that we just need to learn to play better.

Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!

Use your deployment to your advantage, use the avaiable cover and have troops and/ or tanks in mutually supporting positions so you can bring weight of fire and your newfangled gravguns to bear, remember you dont have to wipe the squad out if they fail a leadership check they arent coming fo you! and at Ld8 there is a good chance they might.

One of the lessons my gaming friends have tried to teach me is that canny deployment wins games.

And always try to stack the odds in your favour, by using your squads to support one another you can make it a 2 v 1 fight to your advantage.

Space Wolves need to be played aggressively and so that means the opponent must take the initiative. If you play reactively you will become unstuck. As soon as you start bossing things, it falls apart for Space Wolves

 dantay_xv wrote:
Use your deployment to your advantage, use the avaiable cover and have troops and/ or tanks in mutually supporting positions so you can bring weight of fire and your newfangled gravguns to bear, remember you dont have to wipe the squad out if they fail a leadership check they arent coming fo you! and at Ld8 there is a good chance they might.

One of the lessons my gaming friends have tried to teach me is that canny deployment wins games.

And always try to stack the odds in your favour, by using your squads to support one another you can make it a 2 v 1 fight to your advantage.

Space Wolves need to be played aggressively and so that means the opponent must take the initiative. If you play reactively you will become unstuck. As soon as you start bossing things, it falls apart for Space Wolves

Yes that is all true.

 dantay_xv wrote:
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.

Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.

Yes, it is true Anpu, good deployment doesnt leave the gaps for putting drop pods down where a space wolf wants them, which although maybe not minimising damage certainly helps reduce it.
Plus cant assault out of a drop pod when it arrives, if that changed it would be a massive game changer and I would have to agree that Space Wolves would become massively OP in general.
Plus with IF chapter tactics and Ultra's being allowed rerolls to shooting from theirs, they could cause a world of hurt, and blunt a potential charge.

And good use of cover means not having to move around to get the most out of your tacticals, if yyou cant do that then its yor own fault for making bad choices

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.

Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.

No, you just don't know the range OF A MELTAGUN.
A meltagun has 24" range, it needs to be within 12" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration. And, Meltaguns are good vs infantry. They instant-death T4 and ignore Terminator armour saves.
And, for flamers you can hit 4/5 models each. Also, if you're firing boltpistols and assaulting why would you take flamers on them anyway?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Yes, it is Anpu, good deployment doesnt leave the gaps for putting drop pods down where a space wolf wants them, which although maybe not minimising damage certainly helps reduce it.
Plus cant assault out of a drop pod when it arrives, if that changed it would be a massive game changer and I would have to agree that Space Wolves would become massively OP in general.
Plus with IF chapter tactics and Ultra's being allowed rerolls to shooting from theirs, they could cause a world of hurt, and blunt a potential charge

True, it is funny with the new Combat tactics Ultrasmurfs and Iron Hands can now be more effective with a Drop Pod Assualt than Space Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.

Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.

No, you just don't know the range OF A MELTAGUN.
A meltagun has 24" range, it needs to be within 12" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration. And, Meltaguns are good vs infantry. They instant-death T4 and ignore Terminator armour saves.
And, for flamers you can hit 4/5 models each. Also, if you're firing boltpistols and assaulting why would you take flamers on them anyway?

Melta-Guns are 12"
Multi-Meltas are 24"

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's

Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.

Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.

No, you just don't know the range OF A MELTAGUN.
A meltagun has 24" range, it needs to be within 12" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration. And, Meltaguns are good vs infantry. They instant-death T4 and ignore Terminator armour saves.
And, for flamers you can hit 4/5 models each. Also, if you're firing boltpistols and assaulting why would you take flamers on them anyway?

Meltas are 12". Multi-meltas are 24".

To put it simply, a single heavy weapon is tactically useless. A single ML or Las cannot really do much damage, if you combat squad you now have 4 worthless squad mates who cannot target what you are firing at and likely wouldn't even damage it, not to mention the amount of points you are a paying for that is 70+ points for a H1 shot.

It is not good, to claim so is to otherwise overvalue them by a massive degree. Thus why the 'double-specials' are indeed, far better because it grants a further ingrained purpose to the unit that makes it understandably good.

Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!

Oh it's been proven over and over through math-hammer..It's just a specific side just claims via Anecdotes and false analogies that it doesn't.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
To put it simply, a single heavy weapon is tactically useless. A single ML or Las cannot really do much damage, if you combat squad you now have 4 worthless squad mates who cannot target what you are firing at and likely wouldn't even damage it, not to mention the amount of points you are a paying for that is 70+ points for a H1 shot.

It is not good, to claim so is to otherwise overvalue them by a massive degree. Thus why the 'double-specials' are indeed, far better because it grants a further ingrained purpose to the unit that makes it understandably good.

Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!

Oh it's been proven over and over through math-hammer..It's just a specific side just claims via Anecdotes and false analogies that it doesn't.

I dun goofed
But anyway, this is correct ^

Really, so I am outshooting within 24" because what? your HB doesnt work any closer than that, and neither does your plasma gunner?
If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice. You were given the opportunity and you wasted it.
And show me why they are useless? Show me how a GH at 36 to 48" can hope to harm anything?
The idea of the lascannon is to hit tanks or transports to slow an enemy down and let you use your 'worthless squad mates' as zebio calls them the chance to inflict damage on the footsloggin opponent, or use the lascannon to hit small expensive targets of opportunity.
If you are using lascannons for infantry purposes exclusively then more fool you.
Show me where GH get the abilities to reroll 1's when shooting etc. They dont...
I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.
And for the record I run GK and C:SM besides Space Wolves, so I do kow a little of what I am talking about.

Back to flyers, that would be an issue with the Caestus, however I would drop off then go ram stuff, it seems like it could be fun Storm Eagle looks nice too though...

I still think wolves need something more than Flakk missiles though or we will start seeing egis or long fng spam again, then longfangs will be OP cos they cando everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How can you math hammer a game which relies on the probabilties of getting the right dice roll.

And anecdotes are us using troops in the real world,not some equation you make up in your head, in truth math hammer doesnt mean squat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If math hammer is proving it, whay are we seeing the rise of space marine armies in tournament games and not Space Wolves?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Really, so I am outshooting within 24" because what? your HB doesnt work any closer than that, and neither does your plasma gunner?

No, I think you'll find that a Plasma Gunner doesn't work in ranges above 24".

 dantay_xv wrote:

If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice.

"Grey Hunters have much shorter range because I personally take short-range anti-tank weapons."

 dantay_xv wrote:

Show me where GH get the abilities to reroll 1's when shooting etc. They dont...
I

You do, however, get Wolf Standards, which let you reroll 1's of EVERYTHING in CC, so yeah.

 dantay_xv wrote:

I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.

"Pay 90 points for 1 BS4 Lascannon" isn't making Tacticals work. Sorry, try again.

 dantay_xv wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How can you math hammer a game which relies on the probabilties of getting the right dice roll.

And anecdotes are us using troops in the real world,not some equation you make up in your head, in truth math hammer doesnt mean squat.

If you do not understand maths, I'd suggest you don't comment on it at all. Sorry if that sounds rude, but it's the truth.

Really, so I am outshooting within 24" because what? your HB doesnt work any closer than that, and neither does your plasma gunner?

Heavy Bolters aren't really that good at killing MEQ, and rhino's don't usually care about HB.

If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice. You were given the opportunity and you wasted it.

Two Plasma kill far more then HB + PG.

And show me why they are useless? Show me how a GH at 36 to 48" can hope to harm anything?

They don't, but just because they can't doesn't mean they aren't better.

The idea of the lascannon is to hit tanks or transports to slow an enemy down and let you use your 'worthless squad mates' as zebio calls them the chance to inflict damage on the footsloggin opponent, or use the lascannon to hit small expensive targets of opportunity.

The problem is it's not very effective or efficient, math-hammer shows that a single lascannon or especially ML isn't going to do much to slow things down without 'lucky shots', barring cover, not hitting at all, or them actually using terrain to block avenue of shots.

If you are using lascannons for infantry purposes exclusively then more fool you.

Simple insults with no backing, infact it was a SW player who said he was using it for that purpose.

Show me where GH get the abilities to reroll 1's when shooting etc. They dont...

What? You already got a good number of abilities.

I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.

You haven't shown me anything but anecdotes that barely prove a point. Tac Squads are some of the games worst troops, and I play CSM so I can't really say I've got better.

How can you math hammer a game which relies on the probabilties of getting the right dice roll.

Probability ratio.

And anecdotes are us using troops in the real world,not some equation you make up in your head, in truth math hammer doesnt mean squat.

You use Math-hammer every time you make a dice roll.

If math hammer is proving it, whay are we seeing the rise of space marine armies in tournament games and not Space Wolves?

Because quite a bit of people enjoy using SM?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Really, so I am outshooting within 24" because what? your HB doesnt work any closer than that, and neither does your plasma gunner?

No, I think you'll find that a Plasma Gunner doesn't work in ranges above 24".

 dantay_xv wrote:

If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice.

"Grey Hunters have much shorter range because I personally take short-range anti-tank weapons."

 dantay_xv wrote:

Show me where GH get the abilities to reroll 1's when shooting etc. They dont...
I

You do, however, get Wolf Standards, which let you reroll 1's of EVERYTHING in CC, so yeah.

 dantay_xv wrote:

I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.

"Pay 90 points for 1 BS4 Lascannon" isn't making Tacticals work. Sorry, try again.

 dantay_xv wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How can you math hammer a game which relies on the probabilties of getting the right dice roll.

And anecdotes are us using troops in the real world,not some equation you make up in your head, in truth math hammer doesnt mean squat.

If you do not understand maths, I'd suggest you don't comment on it at all. Sorry if that sounds rude, but it's the truth.

Basically what I wanted to say xD

On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?

If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.

I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.