Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jonolikespie wrote:
@NAVARRO
And that's all well and good for some people but the rest of us wonder why we should spend $100 when the same amount of equal quality models would only cost $45 from one of GWs competitors.

Because you already have tons of competitors models on your collections and want specifically Gw minis for your wfb project?

I dont know about other people but personally I'm having fun completing some of my old armies and the cost does not bother me much. But my shopping habits are very modest and spread so I can cope better I guess.

I barely have time for anything so Hobbies are almost extinct in my life, so the ritual of going to a store buying some minis and then assemble etc reminds my old days. Thats good enough for me if I can do it like once each 3 months.

Once you have ridiculous amounts of minis and collections already you select things differently, its not about saving 25% its about buying exactly what you want.


Edit: Forgot to add about being selective... you could create the best model in the world, and price it as free but if it was finecast I would not want it on my collections... so maybe thats something GW should change.

Bring back the specialist games, re-open the bunkers and hobby centers, allow the design studio to do their job and put out creative content, and most of all reconnect with the customer base rather than driving them away in droves.

Basically reset the company to how it was in the late 90''s before they went public.

It seems that more and more people are seeing similarities and parallels between GW and the fall of TSR - up to and including a CEO that disdains their core audience.

But their are also a fair number of differences -

One difference is that by their late days TSR was trying to open ever more properties rather than cutting down to focus on two or three games. (Anyone remember Dragon Dice? ) so resources were spread ever thinner.

GW has gotten rid of all but their two (three if you count Hobbit) games.

The quality of TSR books plummeted at the end - all except for their core hardcovers. (Their hardcovers were things of beauty, built to withstand a nuclear war....)

GW is increasing the physical quality of their books - but then increasing the price far beyond that of those improvements.

Of course, this is also not the first time that GW has decided to slap everything in hard covers - anyone remember City Scape? cut out cardboard buildings... in a hardcover....) And both then and now the bindings have left something to be desired.

TSR had a wide edition cycle, while GW is getting narrower and narrower in the cycle between editions - GW doesn't need hardcovers, they need three ring binders....

But the start of the solution for both companies is the same - axe the CEO.

TSR had Lorraine Williams (and, ah, the tales that have been told), GW has Kirby (a lot fewer personal anecdotes - Lorraine annoyed people on a personal and daily basis, Kirby only does so in grand gestures)....

The Auld Grump

I remember Dragon Dice!

Quite enjoyed it IIRC.

 azreal13 wrote:
I remember Dragon Dice!

Quite enjoyed it IIRC.

I do believe that these folks are producing it now: http://www.sfr-inc.com/

 RatBot wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I remember Dragon Dice!

Quite enjoyed it IIRC.

I do believe that these folks are producing it now: http://www.sfr-inc.com/

I didn't enjoy it that much, but thanks for the nostalgia trip!

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


One difference is that by their late days TSR was trying to open ever more properties rather than cutting down to focus on two or three games. (Anyone remember Dragon Dice? ) so resources were spread ever thinner.

GW has gotten rid of all but their two (three if you count Hobbit) games.

Sort of, in effect they got rid of the specialist games almost a decade ago, they kept things lingering on life support by keeping models available but the games were all but dead to GW. So pruning those isn't a recent move. While they reduced their focus to the core games they done a lot to up the SKU count so that is an effort to expand their core properties. Each release they'd add new models to the army's range. They've increased the release rate for black library, DLC, main book and codexes. So while the lines have narrowed in focus they've been pushing hard to expand the total offered product within those lines.

They also cut a lot of staff which means they are spreading thinner. While they may have remained stable in the studio the core of their interaction is through their retail staffers which have been slashed. When you remove the most prominent public face of your company it will cost you customer interaction and ultimately loyalty.


There is a major difference between TSR and GW, TSR advertised like crazy you couldn't walk into a gaming store without seeing TSR products or open a gaming magazine that didn't feature some sort of related TSR content. They spammed all the major conventions like Gen Con and Origins so they had a highly visible public face even if they didn't have TSR employees directly interacting with consumers. Meanwhile Gw does none of that the only advertising they do is internal through their employees and word of mouth. By slashing that employee base they have effectively removed the majority of their only "advertising"

Without bunkers and hobby centers in the US it will not create the draw and interest level that has helped GW grow into the size it has been. By switching away from the hobby related aspects they have chosen a path that is going to act as a barrier to new players entering the GW market which is the lifeblood of the company. Old salts certainly have buying power but it's nothing compared to the "churn and burn" crowd of new customers which they've specifically sought out for the last decade or more.

It's going to be very hard for new people to discover GW in the US when they force indy retailers to stop carrying products and GW's one man shops can't support the gaming or hobby end which is what currently draws a huge portion of the new customer base.

riburn3 wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
I could stomach the prices if the game was fun to play. It isn't.

Fair enough, but that's incredibly subjective. Some people define fun in the hobby as modeling and painting. Some define it as spending a casual afternoon with friends playing the game in a relaxed setting, and some define it as steamrolling everyone with the most cheesed out list possible. I look at a lot of the Tyranid whining on the message boards here and elsewhere and see people upset that they can't make a cheesed out list to counter other cheesed out lists. At the casual level where most of the player base exists, these are hardly issues.

Fun for me means I can:

play the models I like with a chance to win (no useless models)
have a dynamic rules system that is not centered on killing each other
paint nice looking models

Infinity provides all of these. After tasting the ARO(automatic reaction order) system which allows you to make tactical decisions that can even hurt your enemy during HIS turn, I never looked back on Warhammer. My tactical marines would just keep standing when being shot at. My Hassasin shoot back. A lot more fun.

From former players, mostly university students, I know that the price increases brought them out of the hobby.

How would I become a customer again?

1) The studio gets outsourced to someone with a track record of good game design. The current model of splash releases and backwards compatibility is stupid. I have zero confidence in anyone at GW in terms of games design and will never buy a game from them again.

2) The customer experience of the product is redesigned from the ground up as if it's a completely new product for the market.

3) GW releases it's stranglehold on distribution and allows distributors to carry their product just like any other so local stores never have to deal directly with GW if they don't want to. And stores can sell the product however they want to whomever they want. Be it online, overseas, whatever.

GW won't do any of those things though.

Yeah, "price cut" is the bandwagon answer, and I'm not going to be jumping on it, it's far too crowded already.

What GW need to do is feedback and reward their customers a bit more, and maybe offer the odd deal or two. I'll deal with each of these three points separately.

Feedback - GW provides what is a very strange product, when you think about it. Every few years, a re-release of a certain army is done, which, provides certain people in the hobby with new stuff, but also can make certain people quite upset. It's odd. Think about it. If, I dunno, Hollister released a new line of T-shirts, there's no chance that many customers will become upset and sell all their old Hollister T-shirts on eBay. Yet, with GW, this can happen, as I'm sure some people will have done over the new Nid codex. I think feedback or some questioning of hobbyists would benefit GW a lot. This wouldn't compromise their secrecy - a simple running poll on the website for every army would work in their favour - and they can still release the "big shiny" models, that will pull in lots of impulse buyers and they can still give them good rules so people will buy them anyway. But, maybe, they'll be able to make that extra unit viable, and hence sell some more.

Also, I think GW could use this to fill gaps in their range. For example, I think there's a fairly big demand for a new, proper, SoB release and new range, as well as a skirmish version of WHFB. GW might not know this, but some communication with hobbyists could inform them of such things and hence they can pick up on some new sales.

Reward - I've been saying this for years, but I think GW would HUGELY benefit from a Reward Card System. For every, say, pound you spend you get a point and those points could be spend on either a) stuff in-store or b) merchandise you can't otherwise buy (a system like HMV or Nintendo) have set up. I really think there's a huge potential for the latter. We've seen that GW customers lap up this sort of stuff so using points on artwork, limited edition models, signed Black Library books etc would be popular and wouldn't inhibit GW's profit making that much, as people are still buying everything. This system would benefit us but also GW. GW make a lot of their sales on impulses, and double points on pre-orders (and other choice sets like Battleforces and Starter boxes) would just add to that. It would also encourage more people to buy direct from GW, rather than via an independent stocklist or eBay.

Deals - Again, like every business, especially ones with large profit margins like GW, deals are big business. I doubt GW will ever do buy-one-get-one-free, but something like a free character model when you purchase a battleforce would be a huge incentive to spend, just like any deals are. And we get to save money. I'm no expert, but I'm of the belief that HMV have managed to cling on purely because of their recurring 2 for £10 deals.

Just my ideas

Honestly, I really dislike it when people compare prices to Warmachine and act as if Warmachine's prices were anything other than slightly less obscene, like the Shocker to GW's Spocker. The models are way too expensive for anyone who isn't into wargaming for "tight rules" above all else and already sure he's going to like wargaming in general, i.e. a certain type of GW expat. If my first wargaming experience was with PP's models, I would still be fething around with Monopoly.


Besides, the strength of plastic is that it can be produced in larger numbers for cheap--why bother tooling it if you're not going to use its strength?


Anyone who says prices don't matter either already has enough models already or is living in some kind of economic bubble. The lifeblood of these games are the younger gamers who bring in fresh blood and cash, and they certainly can't afford your attitude of "I'll spend whatever crazy amount if I like their minis."

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Honestly, I really dislike it when people compare prices to Warmachine and act as if Warmachine's prices were anything other than slightly less obscene, like the Shocker to GW's Spocker.

The usual argument is that you need less of those expensive models to have a proper Warmachine army, which of course means gak for painters/modellers.

 fishy bob wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Honestly, I really dislike it when people compare prices to Warmachine and act as if Warmachine's prices were anything other than slightly less obscene, like the Shocker to GW's Spocker.

The usual argument is that you need less of those expensive models to have a proper Warmachine army, which of course means gak for painters/modellers.

But means everything to actual gamers, which no offense meant but I would bet gamers outnumber the people who just buy cool figures to paint. The reason for the comparison is because getting into Warmahordes is around $50 for a workable, if lightweight, army. You can pick up a faction boxed set and sit down to play a game with anybody else. You cannot do that in WHFB or 40k; the boxed set doesn't usually give enough for a workable army, neither do the Battleforces, and you're looking at $300 or so just to have a basic army. That's the appeal of Warmahordes over GW's crap; I can go to my FLGS right now and buy let's say a Cygnar battle box, and be ready to play some actual games, or spend $99 with a friend and get two fairly decent armies if we want to use what's included in the two player box. With GW, I'd spend twice as much and still not have a legit army, by which I mean more than the stupid "demo game" style one or two units a side which few, if anyone, actually plays, I mean actual entry-level points values. The Warmahordes battle boxes give you that for around $50, while GW costs about 4+ times as much to hit the basic (750/1000 points) mark.

There are a few things I'd like to see.


Cheaper is nice, can't complain if it goes down, although my FLGS does a 20% discount on all GW, so can't really complain.

I'd like to see the rules balanced out, no brainer really.

Get rid of those silly hardback books, there is no need to make them hardback other than to make more money out of the same book.

Venture online, bring out a GW army builder where you put armies together, make it a reasonable price too. A online book is no where near the same price as a physical one.

I know Space Marines are the front men of the company, but do we really need so many Space Marine books?


Oh, and bring back Gorkamorka.

im trying to get back into it, and i think eveyrthing seems OK except the lack of availability at hobby stores (yeah ive seen that great games workshop conspiracy vid and that guy has a good point unfortunately) and the absurd pricing.

if they can't keept a 10 man box of tactical marines under 50 bucks than something is horribly wrong.

edit: i can't speak to the gameplay balancing yet but i'll take the peoples word for it that it could use some revisions.

i would also love to see a starter box with imperial fists ( a great alternative "vanilla" marine chapter) versus eldar. but thats just my pipe dream

what vid

 loki old fart wrote:
what vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZPqPWC5aQs perhaps?

Yup thats the one, my mistake for not including the link.

I cannot comment on the rules given that I have not played for so long, but from reading the forums here there does seem to be some issues with the rules.

Lets see, if I wanted to get back into the hobby my outlay for a bare bones legal force would be;
Rulebook $74.25
Blood Angels Codex; $33
Space Marine Commander; $22.25
Tactical Squad; $40
Assault Squad; $33.00

Total; $202.50
Or if I went with a battleforce (add a Rhino and Death Company) instead the total is $240.50


That is just to get a very small pick up game going, and before I even think about putting paint to plastic. If I wanted a more rounded force;
Death Company; $33.00 (Troops)
Chaplain $16.00 (HQ)
Sanguinary Guard; $33.00 (Elites)
Terminator Assault Squad; $50.00 (Elites)
Baal Predator; $57.75 (Fast Attack)
Vanguard Veterans; $40 (Fast Attack)
Vindicator; $57.75 (Heavy Support)
Dreadnought; $46.25 (Heavy Support)

My total has just gone up to $536.25. That is quite a price hurdle for anyone starting/coming back into the hobby.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I cannot comment on the rules given that I have not played for so long, but from reading the forums here there does seem to be some issues with the rules.

Lets see, if I wanted to get back into the hobby my outlay for a bare bones legal force would be;
Rulebook $74.25
Blood Angels Codex; $33
Space Marine Commander; $22.25
Tactical Squad; $40
Assault Squad; $33.00

Total; $202.50
Or if I went with a battleforce (add a Rhino and Death Company) instead the total is $240.50


That is just to get a very small pick up game going, and before I even think about putting paint to plastic. If I wanted a more rounded force;
Death Company; $33.00 (Troops)
Chaplain $16.00 (HQ)
Sanguinary Guard; $33.00 (Elites)
Terminator Assault Squad; $50.00 (Elites)
Baal Predator; $57.75 (Fast Attack)
Vanguard Veterans; $40 (Fast Attack)
Vindicator; $57.75 (Heavy Support)
Dreadnought; $46.25 (Heavy Support)

My total has just gone up to $536.25. That is quite a price hurdle for anyone starting/coming back into the hobby.

Exactly, herein is the problem. You would spend $240 for the bare legal amount basically, and that's hoping people are willing to play smaller points games with you otherwise you need the $536 amount to actually start to play. That's ridiculous, especially when other companies offer basic armies for less than half the cost. I priced an equivalent Vampire Counts army compared to Mantic's KOW Undead boxed army and the total was $588 for GW versus $175 for KoW, for the same number of models + the rules; over three times the cost for the same number of figures.

I'm just going down with the ship. Not going to quit, and jump into some new game that probably won't last 6 months past kick starter...

I technically have restarted, everytime a new rule set comes out, I see the shiny new figures and jump! I've seen the rules change, I've seen the miniatures change, I like the old stuff when it was new, I like the new stuff it looks amazing! I got divorced, moved several times, so this latest edition I restarted all over again. I collected up the hobby from basic tools, and brushes to figures, and models. Then out of the blue the ex gave my stuff back... Which was nice to have back because I have 26 years or so of collecting, mainly nice to have the most recent projects back, and my books.
So really I started over again, I love it, bad rules ok rules whatever, I've been entertained with it all in some apsect. There was a time then the rules were terrible, that modelling became the strong part of my 40K hobby.

Some of this disucssion and nay saying can bring a bloke down, but I've seen it come and go. Seasonal... More hobby centers are opening, more stuff is coming out. Not too concerned.

Really good reading, you guys for the most part are very well spoken.

Now for people in full time employment, with a relatively steady income this can be more manageable by budgeting, buying in limited amounts, etc. but that means excluding those with less disposable income. This affects younger people coming into the game. To keep the business alive in the long term you need new people getting invested in the hobby, otherwise you are selling to a shrinking base.

 Kelly502 wrote:
Not going to quit, and jump into some new game that probably won't last 6 months past kick starter...

I'm wondering what you mean by this, you know that there are other established games out there right? Warmachine, Infinity, Dystopian Wars/Firestorm Armada and Mantics stuff aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Hell most of those kickstarters are by established companies looking to grow.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Kelly502 wrote:
Not going to quit, and jump into some new game that probably won't last 6 months past kick starter...

I'm wondering what you mean by this, you know that there are other established games out there right? Warmachine, Infinity, Dystopian Wars/Firestorm Armada and Mantics stuff aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Hell most of those kickstarters are by established companies looking to grow.

I've seen them come and go bro'. That's what I meant. GW's games have been there consistantly since I've been gaming.

I'll split this into different levels of "back in".

To get me to buy some new models again whenever I feel like wasting some cash instead of say, a video game or MtG cards:

- Reduce 10 man squad cost to $25
- Reduce character model cost to $10
- Reduce large model (dreadnought) price to $30
- Reduce extra large model (baneblade) price to $75
- Implement bit service for reasonable price to allow non-covered items in the sets above. Must have things like dual lightning claws for CSM.
- I'd like price to be MSRP, but could be 20% higher as long as I can pick-up for the above price.
- Allow and support FLGS carrying the full line of models.

To get me to actually play my army again:

- Scrap the current 40K and fantasy rules.
- Start over with a well balanced game with community feedback (see Warmachine V2 for how)
- Deploy one or two big army books (imperium and not imperium), then roll out additions which grow the options, but don't obsolete the prior books, for all armies at once (see Warmachine).
- Make rules tournament quality and able to support tournaments.

To get me to buy another army:

- Rules from above
- Price reductions from above
- Good starter box
- Incentives to play such as sponsored events for new releases.
- Engagement with the community on what is coming up.

To get me to promote the game:

- Engagement with the community such as forums, facebook, twitter, etc.
- All of the above
- Maybe hold a sale sometime
- Commitment to the community

Item one on my list:

Witch Elves currently cost 70 AUD for 10. Drop the price by 66%.

The problems I've had:

Pricing, 75+ USD is far too much for my own personal budget to get a BASIC RULE BOOK. Many of the model kits are getting the same/worse.

Balance. I'm sorry, but my Nid army should be able to compete with or beat ANY list put on the table. Each edition and each codex seems to make it more and more difficult for those who don't wish to play the latest, greatest force to win, much less compete. This is one area where I feel groups like Privateer Press are beating GW.

With the balance issue goes the tightness of the rules. two players should not have to halt a game during the first shooting phase due to both units' special rules preventing or boosting the shooting aspects of each involved.

I'd love to see them put things like the Space marine Strikeforce (although I'd get rid of the stupid drop pod that just takes up space and replace it with a Predator or something cool) for every army, as a good entry point to starting a new force. Price it like $174.99 or even $199.99 and throw in the codex for free. New/returning players can pick that up and have everything they need for a basic, entry-level army. Will it be the best army ever? No probably not, but it would give you an HQ, troops, and extras (Elite/Fast/Heavy) to serve as a solid starting point to expand.

That should be done for every army in the game; all boxed units should have the appropriate amount of troops (within reason for some things that let you field like 40), meaning no garbage like WHFB units being fielded in 20 but bought 10 to a box thus forcing you to spend double, or even worse garbage like Dire Avengers that were cut in half and the price actually increased so you're paying more for less models; include in them with all available options (i.e. don't just offer 1 heavy weapon, offer plastic versions of all of them with duplicates if duplicates are allowed in the codex), and put a straight 40% price reduction across the board on everything - if they're convinced of pushing people to order from GW direct as a lot of the rumors are, offer that discount exclusively via GW Mail Order; bring back buying Bitz. Make a paperback small rulebook for $20, and put codexes back to how they were in 3rd edition style at the same price. Get some decent paints not charge more for less paint (go work out a deal with Vallejo to license their Game Color range or use Army Painter or something like that).

The increased sales would make up for any perceived profit loss.

I said this in one thread, but I think it bears repeating here. Have starter sets of snap fit models, of a set point limit (maybe 750) that contains a legal army plus an Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support choice, but also have the rules and codex included. But do the same as Corvus Belli. The free rules have no art work, no photographs of models, no fluff etc. it is just the basic rules that you need to get started with.