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Golgo13 wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet.

You are very wrong here, We trash GWs games as much in IRL, as we do on the Internet. That statment is the same as some dude who told me on an MMO forum, "that there were only people that were unhappy with a game that posted on the forums". I think it was Star Wars the Old republic. I told him he had to be a very unhappy customer then because he was on the forums(posting his white knight arguments that the game was great ofc hehe). He immediatly replied that was not the case. He was happy and the game was just fine "nothing to see here move along". I then whent on and said "somtimes a cigar is just a cigar" Sigmund Freud said...haha, 6 months later it whent free to play.... Crap is crap, and Balance is the new Holy Grail of the kidds these days(those customers that GW are trying to get into the hobby). The success of competetive Video/PC games have created an atmosphere that BALANCE is key if you want to play with the big boys, if you aint got a balanced game you got gak. And contrary to what some of you belive everyone from Joe Casual gamer too the ultra competative player care about BALANCE.. Nobody accept stuffy old men, who are still living in the 90s, wants to play a bear and pretzels game in the year 2014...

Facts are the Atmosphere of despair has been going on for a long time now.. But the diffrence now from the year 2004-2005 is that there are ALOT, and I mean ALOT of other games that have established brands out on the market. Many of them started more then a decade ago. People who were on the fence, thinking they might not last, do not have those concerns in the year 2014. All of these games also have superior Rules compared to GW games... I predict a slow death for Games Workshop, they have fixed with the numbers for years now, but you cant keep that up forever.

The Writing is on the wall, they are going down, they are cutting and cutting and cutting, No more translation of whitedwarf, one man stores, The last Gamesday looked like a joke, Trying to shut down other copycat brands who make similar miniatures but cheaper and constant price hikes. And they F with people that we as a community interact with, Beast of War and Miniwargaming are examples but there are many others.. When you combine all these things there is going to be blow back, It has been going on for years now, but it takes time to bring down a giant... They have taken everything that was fun about the hobby and cut it away. Now they just want to sell miniatures with some crapy unfinished rules slapped on, and the new generation is not buying it, because they have grown up on PC/consol/video games and they want BALANCE...because that is whats "COOL" these days...

And the worst thing is that once people are gone they never come back, because GWs policy has never been to retain customers.

That is purely anecdotal. Just like my example. My community has been doing nothing but adding players to Warmahordes, Fantasy, and 40k for the last 5 years since I've been here. I live in a metro of 1 million people, in one of the poorest regions of the United States, and the hobby has only been growing. No one is despairing.

Other folks here are going to be splashing around anecdotes of the exact opposite, of entire groups leaving the hobby, just like you. Obviously I know an atmosphere of despair exists to some degree (heck I created this thread so I'm aware), but your lone anecdote does not make that so, just like mine doesn't counter yours. All of us provide anecdotal evidence. Fantasy seems to be dying but there are dozens here saying its thriving in their group. Whose right? At the end of the day, GW is still much larger than their competitors, sit on some good IP, and have weathered numerous storms in the past.

Lastly, if you don't think people turn to the internet to complain and voice their concern over individuals that are completely satisfied with a product, you are deluding yourself.

At this point I am not sure what GW could do to lure me back.

For the first time in since I began playing in 2003 I have not purchased the last codex, neither Stronghold Assault or Escalation, have not purchased any of the supplemental codex books, and since last September I have only purchased two vehicle kits which still sit unassembled. I was a long time coming but now I have no desire to play 40K every again. Yes i still love the models, the grim dark setting and backstory, but pricing, craptacular rules that offer no balance or fun, as well as a toxic player community bent on exploiting this lousy ruleset have made playing a game of 40K as much fun as my next trip to the doctor.

So what should be done? here are a few suggestions, in no particular order:

1) Price adjustment. - Lower the prices to a level that will attract and sustain both new and old players. At $100 or more no one purchases the starter set. Veteran players rarely start new armies anymore.

2) Balanced and well written rules. - I'm no longer interested in playing a game where I have to play one of a handful of builds to be competitive. Even when winning with these builds, the game is not fun. Write a balanced game where list building and shotty rules ( 2+ rerollable save, etc ) do not determine the outcome of each game before the first die is cast.

3) Tournament support and control. - When GW was involved in Games Days and their own Grand Tournaments, the whole hobby was important to win their event, Organized play needs to refocus on all aspects of the hobby and the only way to get the community back to this level is for GW to step back in and set the standard. I would also serve to spread some good will back into the gaming community.

4) Create a way to submit feedback, and actually listen to your consumer base.- I know it's a dream but most successful organizations actually care about the people who are consuming their products and use their opinions to help direct upcoming sales.

So there you have it. Basically if I felt GW was actually attempting to produce a quality game that was fun to play I would have never strayed. Unfortunately the game changed and GW's policy of zero customer support and zero attention to customer opinions has finally caught up to them. I am sure in typical fashion they will seek to blame the electronic age of video games, the price of raw materials, labor, distribution, the unbalance of global currency, etc but the bottom line is they stopped making a quality product. Build a better mousetrap and the world will make a path to your door.

As per everyone else, price cut, balance, giving a feth.

that's really about it.

 azreal13 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
RE: pricing

Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.

From their own figures, GW spends about 20% of the final RRP before sales tax getting the product on the shelf (design, manufacture, logistics)

It is well known that independents purchase stock at ~40% of RRP before tax.

So yes, there is room for a price reduction, but half is just dreaming because GW's non-product overhead is so high that it would drive them under in no time at all.

If they were to dispose of their retail chain, seriously downsize admin and management, and sell solely through wholesale distribution, then maybe something approaching 50% would be feasible without breaking the company, but that's just not going to happen.

If that is someone's line in the sand for buying back in to GW, fair enough, that's your right, but don't be planning any new army purchases in that basis.

If they doubled the amount of product in every box, would that put them under?

Cutting prices to a point that isn't insulting, writing a ruleset that is well designed, playtested, and actually fun to play, and perhaps adopting a model aesthetic that doesn't look like a fisher price toy.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:If they doubled the amount of product in every box, would that put them under?

Maybe. (sorry, I know, worst answer ever)

It all depends on whether or not it impacts sales when people start the game and during the year or two that follows them joining.

Right now GW can sell them a high price starter, a codex, maybe a rulebook and a battleforce, and then a unit box or two every now and again.

If doubling the number of miniatures in a box would result in people skipping on some purchases, then GW doesn't have the room in their margin for it. If they'd spend roughly the same amount and just enjoy the greater number of miniatures, then GW would still be slightly worse off because they had to spend more on production, shipping and distribution.

So it depends whether or not it would result in more purchases. We might all say that yeah, we'd buy more, but the odds are we might buy ever so slightly less as we struggle to process twice the number of miniatures into our games.

It's also possible that GW could suddenly start offering much better value but the bridges they have burned make it too late. That their direct only focus means they just don't have the marketing power to get the word out about the new value in their product. They need to dramatically increase sales and get people excited again and it's a hard ask with their current approach.

I think it's probably just better for everyone if GW continues their decline into irrelevancy and their market share gets slowly divided up among multiple competitors who are all growing. If GW wants to wake up along the way and do the things that would get its customers back, I'm all for that too.
.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
RE: pricing

Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.

From their own figures, GW spends about 20% of the final RRP before sales tax getting the product on the shelf (design, manufacture, logistics)

It is well known that independents purchase stock at ~40% of RRP before tax.

So yes, there is room for a price reduction, but half is just dreaming because GW's non-product overhead is so high that it would drive them under in no time at all.

If they were to dispose of their retail chain, seriously downsize admin and management, and sell solely through wholesale distribution, then maybe something approaching 50% would be feasible without breaking the company, but that's just not going to happen.

If that is someone's line in the sand for buying back in to GW, fair enough, that's your right, but don't be planning any new army purchases in that basis.

If they doubled the amount of product in every box, would that put them under?

No.

The cost of a sprue is a fraction of the cost of the whole product (especially when you can discount any design and mould tooling costs as the mould already exists) so all you add to the overall cost is essentially the cost of plastic and the extra time (minutes? If that) to cast a couple more sprues.

It would certainly add to their costs, but would still maintain a healthy margin at point of sale.

Now, if you were to consider that more product per box means less unit sales and therefore their income would suffer that way, you might have a point. However, you'd have to weigh up the increase in sales from people who were now willing to buy at the new "value point" vs the number of people who would have bought two boxes under the old structure. Personally, I think that's a moot point, because if GW doesn't start selling stuff to more people, then the downward trend will continue anyway, regardless.

Do people actually believe their line of BS that they price things in a way to recoup the costs from the molds?? Hasn't the fact that most every other miniatures company out there can offer the same number of figs or more at half the price debunked that by now?

I am not out of the hobby but I am not spending that much anymore.

Regarding the price decrease I know I want one but I am sure that this will also devalue my current collection so if you already have a gazillion of minis then a major price drop will result in money loss on the minis you already own, so it is kinda of a mixed blessing.

Quality is nice if you forget the failcast bs but like most people said if you charge the highest price that must happen for a reason.
Right now there is a ton of artists out there that produce, with access to lesser means, minis that are far superior than the GW ones. Simply look at the raging heroes Female IG line.

My most important problem stands with the rules. There is a constant blur that I feel it originates from the need for the game to be simple enough that a 8 years old can play it. Guess what?! I have no desire to make up rules on a roll of 4+ especially in the tournament scene. Make a starter rule set that is easy for entry playing and small ages and then complex clear rules for grown up adults and tournaments. Rules upon which codexes can be balanced correctly. And PLAYTEST the hell out of them. Release them on the internet for free and let us do the play testing! Forums thrive with people that can provide complete breakdowns of rules and units through extended play testing. Listen to the internet!

My bottom line is that the fun is gone. GW needs to find the games side and forget a bit about the workshop side deep inside the company.

 Capamaru wrote:
Right now there is a ton of artists out there that produce, with access to lesser means, minis that are far superior than the GW ones. Simply look at the raging heroes Female IG line.

Bad example - they're significantly more expensive than GW even with the Kickstarter discount, and they're still faffing about months after the first wave was supposed to be released.

 Osbad wrote:

A big killer for me though is that they no longer make metal models. Plastic toys just don't cut it for me unless they are super-cheap. I don't buy plastic because in anway they have quality. I buy plastic because it is often the only affordable way to build a sizeable army for a given system. Given the choice I much prefer metal. Plastic has the association of "mass produced, cheap". It reminds me of the old boxes of airfix models I had as a kid, and metal reminds me that actually I'm no longer a kid and there is something more to the models than little toys I played with on the carpet as a 7 year-old. If they brought back metal for character models, and didn't charge the earth, I could be possibly persuaded to part with the odd £1 or to. But I'm never going to pay £10, £15, £20 for a hero model. £5 is my absolute limit, and that has to be something pretty special.

This.
I think just the same; I'm forty years old and messing about with plastic soldiers? At least give me something that feels like it's worth the money I just paid.

I am most displeased with the manner in which GW treats its employees. From what I have seen it is a blessing if they fire you, and that is something that they do with frequency. They would have to start treating their employees like human beings to get me back.

GW also happened to pull out of the local retail market. I am not inclined to buy their products if they do not want to sell them to me.

After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.

As someone who DOES NOT play the game at all, the price point for games workshop models is expensive, but in reality it's really not. 35 dollars for 10 men that you may spend a week perfecting and putting hours upon hours of work into? That doesn't seem ridiculous at all. And even still when you don't want to pay full price across the board just go to ebay. That place is a treasure trove of cheap warhammer stuff.

After ditching the hobby for many years so I could focus more on school, the enjoyment that I get from these models has brought me back. For my type of slow progression of a box by box army, Games-Workshop sells at a price point that I would gladly pay for.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Do people actually believe their line of BS that they price things in a way to recoup the costs from the molds?? Hasn't the fact that most every other miniatures company out there can offer the same number of figs or more at half the price debunked that by now?

You don't understand.

GW molds are cut from solid platinum.

 PrettyLawful wrote:
After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.

Once you finish school and have to start supporting yourself, that's going to change drastically.

 Fafnir wrote:

 PrettyLawful wrote:
After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.

Once you finish school and have to start supporting yourself, that's going to change drastically.

One of the most interesting aspects of being an adult is making a lot of money, but having less disposable income then ever.

Still, as a working adult I have the money to pay GW prices, I just don't have the time to play a lousy game.

 Fafnir wrote:

 PrettyLawful wrote:
After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.

Once you finish school and have to start supporting yourself, that's going to change drastically.

This. When I was a senior in high school (and just after as a freshman in college) and had lots of disposable income with no real expenses (living with relatives, older car that was bought with cash, etc) I was able to buy new things every week and start armies on a whim (and I did; I would buy a few units of a new army just because, then a month or two later get bored and decide to try another army). As a working professional that isn't the case anymore.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Do people actually believe their line of BS that they price things in a way to recoup the costs from the molds?? Hasn't the fact that most every other miniatures company out there can offer the same number of figs or more at half the price debunked that by now?

Don't think anyone was saying this?

I certainly wasn't, but the cost of tooling the molds is certainly a significant expenditure that has to be factored into the projected profitability of the kit. The main reason other companies are able to charge less has nothing to do with the cost of producing models and everything to do with not having a massively bloated cost base as a result of maintaining a network of stores. I've said for some time the the store network is probably doing more harm than good in terms of how restricting it is in GW's ability to react to the market.

Probably the biggest thing GW could do to get me back into their games would be to severely cut the cost of rules. My Tyranids and Lizardmen are shelved because I didn't feel like buying a $60 book to play them, and next edition turnover I am probably dropping Fantasy altogether (because probably a $100 rulebook).

I am not saying make it free, but when I could buy the rules for any other game, plus a sizable chunk of other stuff (such as, say, everything I need to re-fight the battle of Yavin), I am somewhat less than inclined to buy your stuff.

Would this actually make GW money, at least in terms of me? Maybe, maybe not. I also have problems with the quality of rules and their general attitude, but if I were actually playing the game, maybe I would fall for some of their new units. I know there are some I like, but if all I'm doing is a painting project, I am going to buy a cheaper model if I am not going to play with the model. If I were actually playing their game, I might go for that big, expensive model, as both painting and playing something is better than just painting it.

Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.

The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.

I haven't read all seven pages so far but there's a common theme in what I have read....prices

I've got 5 armies all over 2000 points now. I don't need to buy any more to keep playing other than the codecies. Some of the new shiny toys are nice but I can't justify the cost.

Plus the cost of initially starting this hobby has become far too high now. I know it's a long time ago now but the 3ed Starter Set cost less than a Riptide does now and it included a Tac Squad, Landspeeder, 16 Dark Eldar Warriors Templates, Rulers.......you get the picture.

Two words really sum up my GW involvement right now, Specialist Games. It would take a complete revamp of Mordhiem, Necromunda, Gorkamorka and BFG for me to touch GW ever again. I own 3,000+ points in DKoK and IG another 1.5k in orks. Yet I haven’t played 40k since qualifying for feast of blades.

The game is broken. For me the last straw was the high toughness, high wound minis. The wraith knight and rip tide became too much. Cost and rules. Last round of FoB qualifier I lost everything to an elder army and barely made a scratch. It wasn’t even a fair fight. It was like me boxing my 8 year old. I admit I rage quit. But it was a long time coming. I make a good salary but can’t afford to keep up with codex creep.

Right now I am actively buying every Necromunda fig I can get my hands on. I go every Saturday with premade gang lists and minis to my flgs and teach anyone to play Necromunda who wants to learn. Every one of them says the same thing “Wow, why isn’t 40k this fun!.”

So in summation:
1. Specialist games
2. Prices need to be realistic (realistic is 5$ a fig in mho)

I think I'm done with playing conventional 40k... despite being a fanboy for the background, the dataslits and wanton regard for rules balance have killed it for me. The mini design choices have also killed it. I'm attracted by shinier things and better game systems. X-wing for fun and easy games, infinity/FOW for the miniatures and tactical game fix, and continuing to make mini's from the 40k universe that may or may not be useable in a game, I don't give a feth anymore.

I'm still into GW products though, it's called black library and Forge World... To really get me back into it, I would need an adult version of the game based on skirmish with a completely rewritten, modern ruleset. I'm still willing to pay forge world prices for their product, so I can't say that prices are the main problem, but forge world gives me real quality and artistic sculpts.

That being said, I may possibly be dragged back in by a new Imperial Guard codex and give them my money for that, despite hating myself.... 40k is still fun when you basically play narrative and scenarios and not be crazy about balance, who wins, or taking uber units.

Small game 6 peices or so each side based on the inquisition

 Polonius wrote:
Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.

The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.

And what is the end result of that? You get boxes full of useless "bits" for a markup price of 30 or 40%...

If they used that extra "sprue quality" to pack in more special or heavy weapons then you would have a point.

GW would be in a tough spot to cut current prices. Their best bet is to freeze price hikes on new products and focus on releasing them at lower prices then they would have. Then gradually they can reduce prices of older products.

If the rumours are true about FW being sold through the GW website... then it may be possible to support my local store through FW purchases. I imagine we would also no longer need to do bulk purchases to avoid the brutal FW shipping charges if we have them delivered to a store.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.

The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.

And what is the end result of that? You get boxes full of useless "bits" for a markup price of 30 or 40%...

If they used that extra "sprue quality" to pack in more special or heavy weapons then you would have a point.

I like the options included. Look at Grey Knights. You can build three different units, with all possible options, out of a single kit. No upgrade blisters, no metal/plastic hybrids, none of it.

Admittedly, GW units tend to have more options, but you get a lot more modelling options with a GW kit, even if some of them are purely aesthetic.

 Polonius wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.

The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.

And what is the end result of that? You get boxes full of useless "bits" for a markup price of 30 or 40%...

If they used that extra "sprue quality" to pack in more special or heavy weapons then you would have a point.

I like the options included. Look at Grey Knights. You can build three different units, with all possible options, out of a single kit. No upgrade blisters, no metal/plastic hybrids, none of it.

Admittedly, GW units tend to have more options, but you get a lot more modelling options with a GW kit, even if some of them are purely aesthetic.

Now that's a thought. What if you were able to build Tactical/Assault/Devastator marines out of a single box, with all options (e.g. no crap like only including 1 heavy weapon when the squad can take up to 4). That's be worth $40 or so in my opinion.

Well, Devestators are tricky, if only because they can take up to four each of five different weapons. A sprue of twenty heavy weapons would probably be its own sprue, if not spill onto a second. Practicality has to kick in at some point.

At the other end of the space marine spectrum is the assault marine sprue, which doesn't even include flamers, and is hideously expensive.

Of course, the real loser are things like Eldar Dire Avengers: no real options, and $35 for five! I mean, you can get top quality metals for that price. Compare that to Grey Knights, which is cheaper, includes options for varient close combat weapons, and every weapon option, plus a bonus psycannon!

Prices are high, and a cut would be great, but GW can and has made kits that simply can't be beat by any other manufacturer in terms of quality and value for the dollar. That they squander that is a shame.

 lord_blackfang wrote:


You don't understand.

GW molds are cut from solid platinum.

They used to be. Since Finecast and the new dex's of the last couple of years, they've been using unobtainium, far more expensive than platinum.

On a serious note, I maybe have a little more perspective at age 49 and 35+ years in the wargaming hobby, so here goes.

GW have followed the same evolutionary path as many companies that grow from a boutique type company into a large international juggernaut. In phase 1, the customer is all important. You bend over backwards to get customers, and you do everything possible to make as many of them as possible into repeat customers. Perceived quality and value are generally at their highest, since ensuring a good customer experience is paramount. Your future existence depends on it.

In phase 2, a company starts realizing that more product is necessary to keep existing customers in the fold. New people are brought in to bring new ideas to the table, and the emphasis starts shifting to more new stuff. At this point, the customer is no longer in the driver's seat, but rather rides shot gun with new product and expansion in the driver's seat. Existing customers are still the life blood of the company, and keeping them is still important.

In Phase 3, the company has gone public, and now has share holders and a board of directors. If you're a customer, forget about riding shot gun, or even sitting in the back seat. You're just not in the car anymore. The one and only emphasis is bottom line. Gots to keep the share holders and board happy. Gots to pay the CEO, COO, CFO, etc., their seven or eight figure salaries. At this point, improving the bottom line usually means cutting employee wages, closing retail outlets, raisng prices, etc. Existing customers are often deemed unimportant since their yearly contribution to the company kitty has shrunk. Getting new customers, even if they don't stick around long, is far more important, and puts far more cash in the kitty.

Some companies go through these phases much, much better than GW. They have failed their loyal customer base. I'm still involved with GW, but I don't buy their paint, brushes, or any other modeling supplies. I've seen the two closest GW stores in my area close after having gone from 3 man, to 2 man operations open 6 days a week, to 1 man operations open only 5 days a week, and closing for 30 minutes a day for lunch. Fortunately, I have ~800 points of models still on sprues in their boxes in addition to about 500 points assembled and awaiting paint (I work slowly, lol), and I buy Vallejo paints on line, so there's no reason for me to drive an hour to either the Bunker or closest GW to me. I realize many people have to drive that far, but I'm in a metro area of 3.5 million.

Do they over charge for their product? Uh, yeah. Crappy (I'm assuming squirrel hair) brushes at almost the cost of my Raphie 8404 kolinskys? Yeah, that's overcharging. More money for a smaller pot of paint that's no better than the competitions bigger bottles? Yep, over charging. Boxes of 5 troops at about the same price as a box of ten troops? Yep. I understand command type figs being more expensive, it works the same with historicals, but not to nearly the same extent as the GW price structure. They have become blind and arrogant, and feel they are the only game in town. This has caused them to lose focus on what made them, and it has alienated long term customers. It's a shame. I have a lot of very fond memories of afternoons and evenings spent in my former FLGW. I miss the guys working in those stores, and I miss a lot of the regulars that I used to game with and learn from. I don't see those days ever coming back. The stores feel too corporate now, and I'm not sure there is anything, including bringing prices in line, that could bring me back to the same level of involvement I used to have and enjoy. In fact, I've been spending more and more time lately visiting Dixon and Essex's sites looking to get back into historical gaming.