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 Coldhatred wrote:
Honestly? Nothing will get me back into GW products. I'm enjoying giving my hard earned money to all the companies that actually work for my money. Plus, I'd have to go back to a narrow product selection because there is no way I'd be able to afford more than GW stuff, so I'd be dropping Historicals, Warmachine/Hordes, KoW, Dreadball, X-Wing, Freeblades, and Dropzone Commander. Mmmmm, no thanks.

I've made a few comments in this thread already about:

Reducing Game Size
Improved Turn Sequence
Make Games
Cult Marketing Approach
etc.

However, I think the true answer is that I will never be going back.

I'm knid of happy for GW's ineptitude. For too long I was looking for them (and then other companies like Warlord, Battleground, etc) to provide the things I needed for a game. However, faced with the removal or lack of support of a number of games that I started and liked, but were lost I was forced to learn how to do things for myself.

Now I don't have to sit around and wait for a company to make me rules I like. I just make them myself. I don;t have to wait for certain models to be made. I can find a base model and convert up what I need for myself. I don't need a fancy magazine full of ideas on scenarios and campaigns. I can find out what I need through researchign history and othe rproducts and coming up with my own.

Thank you GW for not letting me eat yoru fish all day. Instead, you forced me to go out and learn how to fish for myself.

I would like GW to put out deals to allow an army like this:


For about £80. (Which is a fair bit more than this lot cost).

I think the newest Tyranid box set might be able to do it, honestly. I've always liked the look of bugs, and since I can get that box at 20-25% off any time I want, it's gone from a very good deal to a STUPIDLY good deal. A buck a piece per bug, plus about $25 for a Carnifex after discount? Yes, please.

I don't have a dog in the Tyranid fight, don't collect them, have no plans to, but the only issue I'd have with it, and it is minor, is a Hive Tyrant or Tervigon would have made a better choice over the Fex. Now I know OOE is an HQ choice, but either one of those would have made the box a genuinely viable starting point for a Nid army that could be very easily expanded.

Look, I gotta be honest. I love GW. But the truth is it has gotten way too expensive to stay in. I have tons of models. I don't mind springing for paint or a box of new models once in a while - even though they are expensive.

Recently a friend gave me an entire Nid army as a gift. It was extremely generous. But now, with the new edition out, the rules cost $50 for my Ork Army and $50 for the nid army - that's $100 *just* to keep playing with what I already have. And that doesn't include the cost of the rulebook. The truth is I don't play every week or even every month anymore. As a result, I just can't see shelling out for something I'll use only once in a while.

It is a struggle to stay in the game when I have to drop that much cash *just* to play what I already have.

The only way, really, to keep playing is to use my *old* dexes under the new edition. Thankfully, I think the Guyz I game with will be grudgingly OK with that.

It would be nice if they offered a soft-cover like they used to for a decent price ($20). The hard cover *looks* good, but everyone's gonna be throwing them away in 3 or 4 years when the next edition comes out anyway, so it isn't like it is going to be a keepsake or anything. I'm on my 3rd Ork Codex now and one thinks about these things when one's been in the game for a while.

Is the game worth it? If you play it often enough I suppose it is. But one does have to ask whether there's a better way to invest those gaming dollars.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
Serious price cut and a really solid/fun ruleset.

QFT

GW seems hell bent on pushing themselves out of business with the cost of their models. Now I get that the economy is shot right now, but come on.

 Solorg wrote:
Look, I gotta be honest. I love GW. But the truth is it has gotten way too expensive to stay in. I have tons of models. I don't mind springing for paint or a box of new models once in a while - even though they are expensive.

Recently a friend gave me an entire Nid army as a gift. It was extremely generous. But now, with the new edition out, the rules cost $50 for my Ork Army and $50 for the nid army - that's $100 *just* to keep playing with what I already have. And that doesn't include the cost of the rulebook. The truth is I don't play every week or even every month anymore. As a result, I just can't see shelling out for something I'll use only once in a while.

It is a struggle to stay in the game when I have to drop that much cash *just* to play what I already have.

The only way, really, to keep playing is to use my *old* dexes under the new edition. Thankfully, I think the Guyz I game with will be grudgingly OK with that.

It would be nice if they offered a soft-cover like they used to for a decent price ($20). The hard cover *looks* good, but everyone's gonna be throwing them away in 3 or 4 years when the next edition comes out anyway, so it isn't like it is going to be a keepsake or anything. I'm on my 3rd Ork Codex now and one thinks about these things when one's been in the game for a while.

Is the game worth it? If you play it often enough I suppose it is. But one does have to ask whether there's a better way to invest those gaming dollars.

Play at home. I realize that isn't an option for everyone, but for those of us who can, it really frees you up to enjoy the game more. We use 5th Ed, have house rules for what we feel is broken in the BRB and dexes, and don't have to worry about "keeping it kosher as per GW" because we're in their house. I realize 5th isn't the greatest rule set, but it's what we're used to, and we've tweaked it to make it more playable for us. I agree it's ridiculous to have to shell out money constantly to keep up with rule sets and dexes. A good set of rules never needs to be changed.

 easysauce wrote:
yup and when GW started, you only needed a few models to start...

over time, a company HAS to expand that or die... they cannot sell you 15 models, and live off that profit for decade after decade...

and you have a very bad tone...

"agree with me that GW is over priced, even though this other game costs more per model it all works out because they will NEVER make us have to buy more models"

now the argument has gone from "gw minis cost more" which is false,

to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false,
you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.

unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...



if you want to play 40k then play it, reduce you pts size if you cannot afford a 1850pts army.. its literally that simple... no one is forcing you to play larger games.

Its complete BS to say that a game like warmahordes with MORE expensive models, costs less, then a game with less expensive models, because you HAVE to buy more of the less expensive models, when in fact, you certainly do NOT have to buy more of the less expensive models at all.

I personaly have never writen that it had anything to do with the price of the models. Table-top games are cheap if you compare them to other "hobbys" that are out there. Price is not the reason why I do not play GW games.

10 Reasons I despise and hate GW games in the year 2014. And I apologies for my "tone" as you put it, But Price has Zero to do with why I personaly do not play GW games... These 10 things come much closer to describing why;

1. Outdated, rules, lets face it rolling more then 50 dice for one unit is not Modern or brilliant game design, its bloated and redundant to achive said goal, "knowing if unit 1 hits and kills unti 2". To many special rules that do not relate to one another, lack of rules clarifications, and open to free interpetations. Breaking GW rules is not hard, and even someone who is not activly PGn the rules can do it. WEAK game design do not deserve praise or admiration. It deserves ridicule and loathing, especially when the company has had over 3 decades to fix them. In my mind this tells me that GW must bee totaly incompeten, but that brings us too my next point.

2 GWs emplyees are clearly not incompetent. But why are they making these crapy rules, Simple reason they want to trick or force me as a customer to buy more of their products.. And I do not like too be forced into anything.. So F...you GW.. I see through your bs

3. All the suport for the hobby has gone by by over the years, back in the day they posted articles about how to make Terrain, how to make vechicles out of shampoo bottles. And they liked there own hobby. Today its only about one thing Pushing as many minatures(drugs) out the door as possible and give nothing back. They are like F..ing drug dealers, care nothing about the end client, they only want to sell more and more and at the highest price possible.

4. THE ARMIES ARE TOO LARGE, I dont have time to sit through a 6 hour apoc game, little kidds do not have the attention span to sit through a 6 hour game. Nobody in his right mind wants to play 2000-5000-10000 point games, that take the better part of one day to get through And. GWs rules make the whole experince utterly horrible. it stops being a fun game and becomes a chore you have to get through.

5. General Company polices Drive people away, if I go into one of their stores to get something, they try to push other things on me that I do not want. If I go into buy a box of skaven, It might not be that smart to try and push a box of Gray Knights on me also.. Im clearly not looking for that now Am I?. This hyper agressive behavior comes from the top, they are forcing their employees to act like this. And it is bad pure and simple..

6. Going after independents with lawsuits, who the F do they think they are??? the next comming of christ? I like both Beast of War and Miniwargame for example, and when GW screw them over, it hits a nervw in me pure and simple. GW do not Interact with the community, they do nothing for us and then they have the nerve to go after the people who do. Unacceptable pure and simple...

7. High prices for miniatures that are clearly very old both in concept and design, same old space marines we have seen for decades, same chaos same same and more of the same... It is kinda boring.. It has gotten old over the years. They are unable or rather unvilling to push the universe forward. We are caught in a never ending loop.. Nothing ever changes. It is the universe of "when time stood still", Illogical and boring

8. GW games cant be played competativly without alot of rules errata etc, Bear and pretzels games are boring, the true Table-top players across the world want Tournament suport and balanced games. If you cant do that stop making the game...

9. No offical forums, no offical interaction with the community, cant take constructive feedback of any sort. Ignorance is bliss at GW HQ. luckly we can also ignore them back and stop buying their crappy products.

10. Last thing and the one thing I really hate the most about GW, are the Stupid Fanboys/White Knights who keep defending their F... slow games. These people are beyoned contempt in my book, They just help alienate people even more, with their stupid arguments and lies. It is like they have the same mindset as the company they love buying miniatures from. And they are also a good reason why anyone of a sane mind should stay away from GW games..

Let the Galaxy burn and down with the False Miniature Company Games workshop!!!!

Golgo13, think I probably agree with most of that.. although I wouldn't put it quite as vehemently! (I did laugh when reading some of your comments, just the way they were written! I ).

I think it's an interesting point; if GW had official forums and FB page with two-way communications, official tournaments, make GD more than just a big queue to buy something - would you be more likely to return to one of their games? Or similarly, if they had a better 'attitude' towards the customers; of rather than this aloof, negative and low regard of their own customers which treats them like someone buying a burger at a drive-through, actually stopped and said "hang on a minute guys.. you're important to us, your support raised us to this point, what can we do better?"

Perhaps that final point is the most important one - I think if they started to care about their customers again (underlined this word, as it was the case at one time) beyond just maximum profit margin, I think most if not all of the other problems that people have with GW would start to disappear. The culture at the centre of the company is the well-spring from which all other factors flow.

I'd certainly feel that my custom was more valued by them, which would in turn make me more inclined to give them some of it.

I'm not "mad" at games workshop really. I was for a while when I was a hardcore player back before the 4th edition Ork codex was released, when I felt my army was neglected by not having half it's model line and being horribly outdated compared to all the other armies.
I've since mellowed considerably, and realised it's not worth my time getting angry at the corp unless it does something particularly nasty.

But they simply do not provide enough value for my money. I've realised through these discussions that I don't just mean value as in, low priced miniatures. I mean that their game isn't good enough and continues to get worse. If 40K was a game I wanted to play I would be playing it regularly, but the game sucks right now. There is little fun to be had in rules that offer so little in the way of balance, and I find the casual gaming mafia are growing more noxious as time passes.

They have to compete with the rest of the industry now, which includes a lot of cheaper miniatures that are at least in the same ball park quality wise, sometimes with better rules too (eg. Mantic and the slew of nice historical, sci fi and fantasy plastics coming out), and miniatures at the same price point which offer a much better play/customer experience (eg. Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux).

Given their position- high market share, high level of previous investment in their IP and rules, it's surprising that they have lost me. But I really doubt they have the creative talent or culture required to get me back, as a player. I might buy their miniatures if I can find a use for them in other games, though.

If they started selling separate bits and sprues I'd buy some. I love their Fantasy minis and could use a few for some skirmish warbands. I'm not gonna buy a box of 16 models just to get two or three though. If they sold sprues however I'd buy a good chunk. Now Reaper Miniatures will be getting that money.

But again, the thing that'd make me properly buy into their games would be if they started making Epic again, and if they made it good. That's something I'd be genuinely interested in collecting on large scale, if it was supported and produced. Now Spartan Games or Hawk Wargames will be getting that money.

I'm probably past the point where any gaming company will convince me to invest in a huge collection of miniatures.

I will happily go for small scale skirmish games though and I'm still buying lots of GW bits and pieces from ebay for Mordheim.

I've recently spent about £80 on X-Wing which is a great game that actually plays very well with 4 to 6 ships per side.

If GW wanted my custom in the traditional sense, it would be through a well crafted and well supported skirmish game - no more than 20 minis per side. Imagine a game like Necromunda/Blood Bowl/Mordheim with customisable box sets for each faction. Then they would have my attention.

For me it's simply that playing the game is no longer fun. The rules are too cumbersome and full of fiddly details I have to keep track of, like having to make sure my haemonculus or hekatrix can't be sniped out of the first rank from any likely direction of incoming fire, et cetera.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
Serious price cut and a really solid/fun ruleset.

This.

I still have my 40k figs and I play a game or two a year. However, in order for me to buy more than a rulebook and codex each edition they'd have to do the above. At this time I haven't bought a new GW figure in years and don't play to start anytime soon.

Ultra Grey wrote:
Play at home. I realize that isn't an option for everyone, but for those of us who can, it really frees you up to enjoy the game more. We use 5th Ed, have house rules for what we feel is broken in the BRB and dexes, and don't have to worry about "keeping it kosher as per GW" because we're in their house. I realize 5th isn't the greatest rule set, but it's what we're used to, and we've tweaked it to make it more playable for us. I agree it's ridiculous to have to shell out money constantly to keep up with rule sets and dexes. A good set of rules never needs to be changed.

This is a good idea. The only trick is that everyone in your gaming group has to agree. Actually, we always say we'll do this - stay with an older edition - but sooner or later, someone in the group shows up one day with the latest rulebook - and then it is just a matter of time. : Z

Still, your point is an excellent one. It is perfectly possible to keep playing with the older rules. This way I could keep on using my 5th Ed rulebook, Dexes, Apoc book, Apoc Reloaded, and so on and so on. Would be nice not to have to move on. Just to enjoy the old investment for a little longer.

 Solorg wrote:


This is a good idea. The only trick is that everyone in your gaming group has to agree. Actually, we always say we'll do this - stay with an older edition - but sooner or later, someone in the group shows up one day with the latest rulebook - and then it is just a matter of time. : Z

Still, your point is an excellent one. It is perfectly possible to keep playing with the older rules. This way I could keep on using my 5th Ed rulebook, Dexes, Apoc book, Apoc Reloaded, and so on and so on. Would be nice not to have to move on. Just to enjoy the old investment for a little longer.

My gaming group is pretty small, and like me and my kid (and a lot of other people), fairly disgruntled with GW. At this point, for me to be able to go to a GW and play, I would have to buy a new Apoc book, and a new SM dex, so, what, ~$125-$150 for the "privilege" of playing in their house? I think I'll pass.

 loki old fart wrote:
The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.

Agreed. it's like the sculptors had a contest to see who could jam more crap onto a space marine.

to some people that looks awesome.. to me it looks messy and cluttered.
and when it comes to painting i wouldn't want to touch that box with a 10 foot pole.

kb305 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.

Agreed. it's like the sculptors had a contest to see who could jam more crap onto a space marine.

to some people that looks awesome.. to me it looks messy and cluttered.
and when it comes to painting i wouldn't want to touch that box with a 10 foot pole.

And models with that level of fiddly detail have absolutely no place being in a starter product.

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.

Agreed. it's like the sculptors had a contest to see who could jam more crap onto a space marine.

to some people that looks awesome.. to me it looks messy and cluttered.
and when it comes to painting i wouldn't want to touch that box with a 10 foot pole.

And models with that level of fiddly detail have absolutely no place being in a starter product.

The assault on black reach was better. The models were more pose able (the arms move thru greater arcs), heads and arms were interchangeable For a new player they were easier to paint.

at this point nothing would get me back into GW products. the core rules really started to irk me, compounded by finecast, yearly price hikes and the destruction of the bitz service, outriders and oh yeah, the whole SG line.

For me personally the almost tipping point was when the Farsight supplement came out. I started playing Tau when there were first released. I have always wanted to play a legal army filled with nothing but battlesuits and now I can. However due to dropping GW for Infinity a couple of years ago and having picked up X-Wing, and Maliflaux I do not have the room or the money for such a large and expensive army.
This especially as I would go forge world and get the Hazard suits for my fast attack. Plus I like the look of the battlesuits and the new broadsides so third party would not work for me.
So for me to get in, I would need someone to buy me a lot of the army or at least see some price reductions so I could fit it in with my meager budget.

Basically they'd have to get my friends back in. I love sci-fi, but everybody I know is playing WMH or MTG now. Much of the bad blood and lawsuits against third parties, plus massive codex price increases have driven them off.

Price reductions and a more stable game system would help. But suing book writers and parts makers poisoned the well quite a bit too.

I cant understand why people who have left the game for financial reasons dont simply buy recasts that are readily available for peanuts from China.

Without wanting to start the old tired debate, if you've left the game because of prices you aren't taking money from GW by buying recasts, as that money wouldn't be spent on legit models otherwise.

As for the moral side of that argument...... well, morality hasn't really played a defining role in GW's treatment of it's customer base now has it

bonz wrote:
I cant understand why people who have left the game for financial reasons dont simply buy recasts that are readily available for peanuts from China.

Without wanting to start the old tired debate, if you've left the game because of prices you aren't taking money from GW by buying recasts, as that money wouldn't be spent on legit models otherwise.

Except people are spending it on legit models; Privateer Press, Corvus Belli,etc., etc. It's not that people can't afford GW, in many cases, though certainly there's some of that; it's that a lot of the people who switch don't think GW is worth the money.

As for the moral side of that argument...... well, morality hasn't really played a defining role in GW's treatment of it's customer base now has it

Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

1. A complete and utter purge of their rules writers and editors and a release of a completely different game ala 2nd to 3rd edition rules.

2. Bring back the Outriders and Rogue Trader tournies.

3. Open the GW forums again.

4. Eliminate finecast, it is a horrible material for figures.

5. Bring back the old formats for White Dwarf what they have been putting out for the last few years is crap.

6. Rulebook & Codex's with 98% rules and 2% fluff. I can buy Black Library books for fluff.

7. Roll back prices to early 2000's price points. The value of the product is absolutely nowhere near what they charge now.

8. Support and encourage FLGS the same as Wizards of the Coast does.

9. For WHFB, a complete rewrite of the magic phase. This edition is all about who gets their "super 6" spell off first.

10. A very public apology to it's fanbase and customers for the ignorant business practices over the last decade.

bonz wrote:
I cant understand why people who have left the game for financial reasons dont simply buy recasts that are readily available for peanuts from China.

Without wanting to start the old tired debate, if you've left the game because of prices you aren't taking money from GW by buying recasts, as that money wouldn't be spent on legit models otherwise.

As for the moral side of that argument...... well, morality hasn't really played a defining role in GW's treatment of it's customer base now has it

I don't know about everyone else but I can safely say that I did not leave purely for money reasons, in fact I am now spending more on Hobby stuff than I ever did with GW. It just adds to the pile of crap, if GW lowered the price, or if my next door neighbor started making recasts and selling them for a few cents on the dollar, the models are still sub par for purely painting purposes and the game is crap.

Prices would need to be about 30% lower and the company would need to refocus on the hobby and gameplay.

For LotR/Hobbit, price. The rules are great.

For 40k, fixing the rules. Their rules are horribly written. I would never have thought a "beer & pretzels" game would require so much digging through the rulebooks to figure out how the heck you're meant to play out certain things. The price is also an issue as I'm probably not going to pay $83 or whatever laughable price for each bad codex I need, and that's not even mentioning the models.

And the people saying Warmachine models are overpriced too probably aren't wrong. It's not a defense of GW, though, and there are a variety of mitigating factors that the thread has seen enough of already without me going into them.

If they want to get me back, they will need to rewrite 6th Edition. I'm not talking about 6th Ed. but with clarifications, I mean rewrite it. Up until 6th, every edition seemed to be streamlining the game, making it easier to teach, to learn and to play. Then, 6th happened and it was like they said, "If it sounds cool, you can do it." That is a serious turnoff to someone like me, who needs rules to be well-structured and well written so I can expect that both me and my opponent will have as few rules discussions/debates as possible and we can enjoy the game. If you're stumbling over rules because they're ambiguous or poorly worded, it takes away from the whole experience, from army building to actually playing the game. Of course, this is my opinion - there may be plenty others that love this Edition, as I expect there are.

Secondly, they need to treat me like I am important to them. I actually don't mind a premium model costing a premium price - and I know that idea is not popular - but what I do mind is being treated like they are doing me a favor by allowing me to purchase their products. They need to be more friendly to everyone in their retail scope, starting with independent retailers and customers. Take Finecast as an example. It was a gak product. It was a gak product that they increased prices on. So, they took away the metal product (which was just fine), gave me an inferior product and then charged me more for it. Then, when the product was sub-par, they treat us like idiots and try to sell us a fixit-kit. If they had instead admitted that their product was sub-par and that they were working on the situation, that would have gained them a lot of leeway. Their lack of communication to the public is the bane of their existence. Their fear of losing sales is actually causing them to lose sales (and customers).

To channel Princess Leia:

"The more you tighten your grip, GW, the more customers will slip through your fingers."