chaos0xomega wrote:
*Crimea
*secede

I think the Georgia/South Ossetia model is a pretty good one for what will happen there, though I suspect that Russia will stand up the Crimea as a puppet/client state rather than outright annex them as Soviet errr... I mean Russian territory.

 d-usa wrote:

It wouldn't increase anything, as the people already had all their weapons.

Armed men have seized the regional government building and parliament in Crimea, according to Russian news agency Interfax.

It said local Tatar leader Refat Chubarov had written on Facebook: "I have been told that the buildings of parliament and the council of ministers have been occupied by armed men in uniforms that do not bear any recognisable insignia.

"They have not yet made any demands."

Crimea
The parliament building has been seized in Simferopol
While it is not immediately clear who is in control of the buildings, it is reported the Russian flag is flying over both buildings.

Around 100 police officers are said to be gathered in front of the parliament building.

The doors appear to have been blocked by wooden crates.

A witness reported hearing gunfire during the night.

On Wednesday there was a confrontation between pro-Russia separatists and ethnic Tatars, who support Ukraine's new leaders, in Simferopol, where the parliament building is located.

Sky's Alex Rossi says there is an enormous amount of anxiety in Crimea over where the future of the region lies, amid signs of separatism.

It came as Russia confirmed it will take part in talks on an International Monetary Fund (IMF) financial package for Ukraine, where the economic situation continues to worsen after months of unrest.

Debt-hit Ukraine has said it needs $35bn (£21bn) over the next two years to avoid bankruptcy.

The European Commission says Russia should be included in efforts to provide financial assistance.

"All I can say is that we will take part in discussions (at the IMF), there is no talk of standing aside," said Andrei Bokarev, head of the finance ministry's international relations department.

Ukraine has also seen continuous devaluation of its currency amid the political upheaval, which led to President Viktor Yanukovych being toppled.

He is now a fugitive, wanted in connection with the deaths of around 100 people during the recent violence.

Ukraine’s sovereignty over the southern region of Crimea appeared to be under threat Wednesday, as Russian-backed fighters moved dozens of kilometres outside their base in this Black Sea port, establishing a checkpoint on the main road connecting Sevastopol to the regional capital.

President Vladimir Putin also ordered the Russian military in its central and western commands – more than 150,000 troops with hundreds of tanks and helicopter gunships – to be put on alert for war games in the areas bordering Ukraine. Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu characterized the manoeuvre as a snap military drill, similar to others Mr. Putin has ordered in the past in other parts of the country.


The Globe and Mail saw at least a dozen men wearing fatigues – supported by an armoured personnel carrier – standing under a Russian flag at a checkpoint erected roughly halfway along the 80-kilometre road from Sevastopol to Simferopol, putting it close to the administrative border that separates the Sevastopol municipality from the rest of Crimea and Ukraine.

The men, some wearing balaclavas, used flashlights to look inside each vehicle approaching Sevastopol. They reportedly later told journalists they were local “volunteers.”

Earlier Wednesday, at least two armoured personnel carriers were seen manoeuvring in the centre of this port city, which has historic ties to Russia and hosts Russia’s Black Sea Fleet under an agreement between Moscow and Kiev. Mr. Shoigu said the Kremlin was “carefully watching what is happening in Crimea” and would take “measures to guarantee the safety of facilities, infrastructure and arsenals of the Black Sea fleet.”

Mr. Shoigu said the drills will last until March 3. Russia has so far refused to recognize the regime that came to power in Kiev following the violent ouster of Moscow-backed Viktor Yanukovych. Meanwhile, the West is rushing to support it, with Washington and Brussels giving vocal support – and promising money – to the protest movement that overthrew an elected government. Foreign Minister John Baird is also rushing to Kiev this week, aiming to show Canada’s solidarity with interim president Oleksander Turchynov and the prime minister-designate Arseniy Yatseniuk.

President Barack Obama warned “outside actors in the region … to end provocative rhetoric and actions.” Instead, Moscow should use its “influence in support of unity, peace and an inclusive path forward,” Josh Earnest, a White House spokesman said.

Many here in Crimea, however, say they would welcome Russian intervention. While many of the revolutionaries in Kiev are Ukrainian-speakers who want to see the country take steps towards joining the European Union, many Crimeans see themselves as Russians who were left outside the borders of their motherland when the Soviet Union fell apart.

Thousands of ethnic Russians rallied Wednesday outside the regional parliament building in Simferopol, shouting for deputies to call a referendum about seceding from Ukraine and possibly joining Russia. Deputies had been expected to introduce some kind of resolution on Wednesday regarding Crimea’s future, but they were blocked by thousands of ethnic Tatars who say they want to remain in Ukraine. Minor clashes broke out, and one person died of a heart attack, before parliament agreed to postpone any vote on secession.

“We don’t want to be with Ukraine. … Sevastopol, Kerch and Simferopol all want to join Russia,” said Darya Artyomenko, a 23-year-old law student who attended the Simferopol rally. Her voice was barely audible above chants of “Russia!” and “Referendum!” Ms. Artyomenko said she didn’t want to live in a country controlled by “fascists” from western Ukraine whom she believes are intent on eliminating the Russian language and culture.

In Brussels, North Atlantic Treaty Organization defence ministers ignored Russia’s war-games alert and called for co-operation in Ukraine’s unfolding crisis. The Western alliance, which includes Canada, said it supported “Ukrainian sovereignty and independence, territorial integrity, democratic development, and the principle of inviolability of frontiers.” NATO has invited Ukraine to join the military alliance – a move bitterly opposed by Russia.

Russian-speakers in the east and south of the country were angered that one of the first actions taken by the post-revolution parliament in Kiev was to repeal a law, adopted under the toppled Mr. Yanukovych, that allowed regions like Crimea to adopt Russian as an official second language, alongside Ukrainian.

“Nobody asked south Ukraine if we want this new government,” said Svetalana Khromova, a 36-year-old childcare worker who joined the Simferopol demonstration. “We’ve lived here for 200 years. We’ve always spoken Russian and we’ll keep speaking Russian.”

While many Russian-speakers feel threatened by the idea of living under the new government in Kiev, other ethnic groups say they have no interest in seeing Crimea join Russia.

The pro-Russian demonstration in Simferopol was countered by thousands of Crimean Tatars, who are Muslims and speak a Turkic dialect. They blocked the doors of parliament and kept the regional assembly from meeting. Mixing chants of “Glory to Ukraine!” with “God is great!” the Tatars claimed a victory Wednesday when they forced the parliament to call of its planned session.

Many of Ukraine’s 300,000 Crimean Tatars associate Russian rule with the Soviet period, which saw the entire population was deported en masse by Joseph Stalin in 1944. Many only returned to Crimea after the fall of the Soviet Union and the birth of independent Ukraine in 1991.

“We don’t expect anything good from Russia,” said 52-year-old Ibazir Ilyasov. “Ukrainian nationalists and Crimean nationalists have the same enemy: Russia.”

Ethnic Russians make up about 58 per cent of Crimea’s two million residents. Ukrainians make up 24 per cent, while Crimean Tatars are 12 per cent. In Sevastopol, ethnic Russians make up 70 per cent of the city’s population of 340,000.

RUSSIAN DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS HAS PUT FIGHTER JETS ON COMBAT ALERT ON ITS WESTERN BORDERS - INTERFAX

(Reuters) - Armed men seized the regional government headquarters and parliament in Ukraine's Crimea on Thursday and raised the Russian flag, alarming Kiev's new rulers, who urged Moscow not to abuse its navy base rights on the peninsula by moving troops around.

"I am appealing to the military leadership of the Russian Black Sea fleet," said Olexander Turchinov, acting president since the removal of Viktor Yanukovich last week. "Any military movements, the more so if they are with weapons, beyond the boundaries of this territory (the base) will be seen by us as military aggression

Ukraine's Foreign Ministry also summoned Russia's acting envoy in Kiev for immediate consultations.

There were mixed signals from Moscow, which put fighter jets along its western borders on combat alert, but earlier said it would take part in discussions on an International Monetary Fund (IMF) financial package for Ukraine. Ukraine has said it needs $35 billion over the next two years to stave off bankruptcy.

The fear of military escalation prompted expressions of concern from the West, with NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen urging Russia not to do anything that would "escalate tension or create misunderstanding".

Polish foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski called the seizure of government buildings in the Crimea a "very dangerous game".

"This is a drastic step, and I'm warning those who did this and those who allowed them to do this, because this is how regional conflicts begin," he told a news conference.

It was not immediately known who was occupying the buildings in the regional capital Simferopol and they issued no demands, but witnesses said they spoke Russian and appeared to be ethnic Russian separatists.

Interfax news agency quoted a witness as saying there were about 60 people inside and they had many weapons. It said no one had been hurt when the buildings were seized in the early hours by Russian speakers in uniforms that did not carry identification markings.

"We were building barricades in the night to protect parliament. Then this young Russian guy came up with a pistol ... we all lay down, some more ran up, there was some shooting and around 50 went in through the window," Leonid Khazanov, an ethnic Russian, told Reuters.

"They're still there ... Then the police came, they seemed scared. I asked them (the armed men) what they wanted, and they said 'To make our own decisions, not to have Kiev telling us what to do'," said Khazanov.

About 100 police were gathered in front of the parliament building, and a similar number of people carrying Russian flags later marched up to the building chanting "Russia, Russia" and holding a sign calling for a Crimean referendum.

One of them, Alexei, 30, said: "We have our own constitution, Crimea is autonomous. The government in Kiev are fascists, and what they're doing is illegal ... We need to show our support for the guys inside (parliament). Power should be ours."

Crimea, the only Ukrainian region with an ethnic Russian majority, is the last big bastion of opposition to the new political leadership in Kiev following the ouster of Yanukovich on Saturday.

Part of Russia's Black Sea fleet is based in Crimea, in the port of Sevastopol

Ukraine's new leaders have been voicing alarm over signs of separatism there. The seizure of the building was confirmed by acting interior minister Arsen Avakov, who said the attackers had automatic weapons and machine guns.

"Provocateurs are on the march. It is the time for cool heads," he said on Facebook.

Turchinov, speaking in Kiev to parliament, which had been called to name a new government, described the attackers as "criminals in military fatigues with automatic weapons".

He also called on Moscow not to violate the terms of an agreement that gives the Russian Black Sea fleet basing rights at Sevastopol until 2042.

The regional prime minister said he had spoken to the people inside the building by telephone, but they had not made any demands or said why they were inside. They had promised to call him back but had not done so, he said.

RUSSIAN WARNINGS

Russian President Vladimir Putin has ignored calls by some ethnic Russians in Crimea to reclaim the territory handed to then Soviet Ukraine by Soviet Communist leader Nikita Khrushchev in 1954.

The United States says any Russian military action would be a grave mistake.

But Russia's foreign ministry said in a statement that Moscow would defend the rights of its compatriots and react without compromise to any violation of those rights.

It expressed concern about "large-scale human rights violations", attacks and vandalism in the former Soviet republic.

Ethnic Tatars who support Ukraine's new leaders and pro-Russia separatists had confronted each other outside the regional parliament on Wednesday.

Yanukovich was toppled after three months of unrest led by protesters in Kiev. He is now on the run and being sought by the new authorities for murder in connection with the deaths of around 100 people during the conflict.

Crimea is the only region of Ukraine where ethnic Russians are the majority, though many ethnic Ukrainians in other eastern areas speak Russian as their first language.

The Tatars, a Turkic ethnic group, were victimized by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin in World War Two and deported en masse to Soviet Central Asia in 1944 on suspicion of collaborating with Nazi Germany.

Tens of thousands of them returned to their homeland after Ukraine gained independence with the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
*Crimea
*secede

I think the Georgia/South Ossetia model is a pretty good one for what will happen there, though I suspect that Russia will stand up the Crimea as a puppet/client state rather than outright annex them as Soviet errr... I mean Russian territory.

Russian. Crimea is Russian territory and it has been so since 1783. Kruschev (an Ukrainian) decided in 1954 (While he was drunk) that Crimea had to be transferred from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR, but Crimea has no business at all being in the Ukraine.
Now Crimeans are forced to speak and learn Ukrainian, having their own culture repressed in favour of Ukrainian culture and have to deal with foreign Ukrainian immigrants.
Most Crimeans can't wait to be liberated. Crimea should either be a part of Russia or a independent country. It does not belong in the Ukraine, Crimeans have nothing in common with people from Lvov or Kiev.

 Allod wrote:
Depends on how you understand "support".

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Allod wrote:
Depends on how you understand "support".

How about "Don't need the US to step in, and that they can take care of something themselves for a change"?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only logical solution I can see is just cutting the Crimea lose to either become autonomous or get reabsorbed into Russia and let the rest of the Ukraine remain independent.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only logical solution I can see is just cutting the Crimea lose to either become autonomous or get reabsorbed into Russia and let the rest of the Ukraine remain independent.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Well things are getting interesting.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
*Crimea
*secede

I think the Georgia/South Ossetia model is a pretty good one for what will happen there, though I suspect that Russia will stand up the Crimea as a puppet/client state rather than outright annex them as Soviet errr... I mean Russian territory.

Russian. Crimea is Russian territory and it has been so since 1783. Kruschev (an Ukrainian) decided in 1954 (While he was drunk) that Crimea had to be transferred from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR, but Crimea has no business at all being in the Ukraine.
Now Crimeans are forced to speak and learn Ukrainian, having their own culture repressed in favour of Ukrainian culture and have to deal with foreign Ukrainian immigrants.
Most Crimeans can't wait to be liberated. Crimea should either be a part of Russia or a independent country. It does not belong in the Ukraine, Crimeans have nothing in common with people from Lvov or Kiev.

And before that, Crimea belonged to Crimean Khanate, which was primarily composed of the Crimean Tatar ethnic group. A vast majority of that ethnic group still lives in Crimea (many of them having returned to live there after being expelled by Stalin in the 50s). Those Tatars overwhelmingly want to remain a part of Ukraine, so given that the Tatars controlled the land prior to 1783 and are thus the original inhabitants, and they would like to remain Ukrainian, it seems they should have the deciding vote, no? Or we could transfer it to Russia, and all those Tatars will be forced to speak and learn Russian, having their own culture repressed in favour of Russian culture and have to deal with foreign RUSSIAN immigrants who have been dominating their ancestral homeland for over 2 centuries.

Note, I'm not necessarily advocating this as a way of resolving issues, merely pointing out the severe logical fallacy in the argument you presented. It sounds suspiciously similar to the arguments that most Israelis use to justify what is in effect an occupation of Palestine (in my opinion).

The Tatars don't have any more rights than the Russians. They are only a small minority and they are not even the original inhabitants. Before the Tatars there were the Kipchaks, before the Kipchaks there were the Greeks, before the Greeks there were the Russians, before the Russians there were the Khazars, before the Khazars there were the Bulgars, before the Bulgars there were the Goths, before the Goths there were the Scythians. Land does not belong to any group by default.

If you are so fond of returning land back to its 'original inhabitants', than why don't you return to Europe and return the US to the native Americans?

chaos0xomega wrote:

The Tatars don't have any more rights than the Russians. They are only a small minority and they are not even the original inhabitants. Before the Tatars there were the Kipchaks, before the Kipchaks there were the Greeks, before the Greeks there were the Russians, before the Russians there were the Khazars, before the Khazars there were the Bulgars, before the Bulgars there were the Goths, before the Goths there were the Scythians. Land does not belong to any group by default.

Well, if ownership of land shifts throughout history, I say the ownership has shifted from Russia to Ukraine, as it did some 60 or so years ago now. Deal with it.

And by the same logic, Chechnya should be returned to the Chechens, should it not? You know, Chechens are 2/3 of Chechnyas population, and the number of ethnic Russians in Chechnya is less than the number of Tatars in Crimea.... The Chechens are the majority and have been there for long enough to be considered the original inhabitants.

If you are so fond of returning land back to its 'original inhabitants', than why don't you return to Europe and return the US to the native Americans?

I'm part Native American, so no thanks.

 EmilCrane wrote:
I would point out that France led its own peace keeping actions in Mali and France and Britain led the charge on Libya, not the US.

I know that most of the time Europe's line is "It would be nice is a superpower would sort this out for us" but they are getting better at actually fighting for their own interests.

 Frazzled wrote:
Reports of armed units taking over airports. Some are calling them Russian commandoes.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/gunmen-crimean-airports-ukraine

No, Ukrainians are still a minority in the Crimea. Russians are the majority, therefore it is Russian territory.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Reports of armed units taking over airports. Some are calling them Russian commandoes.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/gunmen-crimean-airports-ukraine

Well, they do wear Russian uniforms...