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2014/03/01 20:01:18
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Crimea belongs to Putin now. End of story So far bloodless at that...
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2014/03/01 20:06:20
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Same as Desert Storm, Air Superiority. The ex-soviet army is a backwards and antiquated rabble.
Not so much. Putin's spent a lot of time and money reorganising, retraining, and re-equipping the Russian military over the last decade or so. Twenty years ago, you'd have been right, but things have changed somewhat.
Twenty years ago the entire nation was teetering on total collapse and the possibility of military insurrections. I know he's been throwing cash at it for a while, but most everything I've read suggests that it's still a corruption riddled, morale lacking and highly disorganized force. NATO forces, removing the use of nukes, which I don't think would be seen deployed over a foreign soil grab, would kick the seven shades out of the Russian Army. Especially given NATO love of taking apart lines of communication and infrastructure first.
As to massed armour, mentioned by that amusing poster earlier, again, air superiority totally neutralizes that and we'd be seeing roads full of dead tanks soon enough, gutted by depleted uranium rounds and such.
Russia is a tough cookie when you hold it up to it's former conquests, it really doesn't rank up when you put it against the technological superiority of the West.
For one thing; the US would be on its own, Europe does not have the desire nor the capabillities to threaten Russia.
Secondly, the technological superiority of the West does not come into question here. We are not talking about some 3rd world country using outdated Soviet equipment, this is Russia itself we are talking about. The latest Russian technology is as advanced, if not more so than any Western tech. The only thing the US has above Russia is larger numbers. The US has more soldiers, more aircraft and more ships than Russia.
Russia has a lot more tanks, and those are still the deciding factor in a war. Aircraft have a good supporting role, but they do not win wars on their own. America could never bring its entire airforce to Russia, while Russia has its entire airforce available. Coupled with the fact that Russia has the most advanced anti-aircraft measures in the world, I would say that America would have a hard time wresting air superiority. Especially considering Russia could sink any American ship close to Russian shores with its massive array of anti-ship missiles and submarine fleet.
The 1st rule on the 1st page of the Book of War states: 'Do not march on Moscow.' Underestimating Russia and attacking it on its own soil has been the last mistake of everyone to ever attempt that. Fighting Russia on its own territory is madness. There are few peoples that are so stubborn and fanatical in the defense of their 'Sacred Motherland' as the Russians are.
Russia's military has really made vast changes the last decade. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Trust me, the US is not capable of militarily defeating Russia on its own territory.
Anyone who thinks so is a madman and should join the likes of Napoleon and Hitler.
Noone was talking about invading Russia, we were discussing combating an invading Russian force in Ukraine.
"Tanks are the deciding factor in a war'... You need to take a closer look at all wars since the 50s...
'The latest Russian technology is more advanced than Western tech'.... this is fascinating, what are you basing this on?
'The US would be on its own, Europe does not have the desire nor the capabillities to threaten Russia.'... NATO is NATO, treaties have been signed and, again, the West is a fairly unified unit when it comes to the US getting into it with another power, especially one that's invading from the East.
"Coupled with the fact that Russia has the most advanced anti-aircraft measures in the world, I would say that America would have a hard time wresting air superiority. "... America's air superiority isn't just number one, it's number one by a vast degree, it would own the skies in short order.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Russia is a tough cookie when you hold it up to it's former conquests, it really doesn't rank up when you put it against the technological superiority of the West.
And the fact that we train to survive and fight in cold winters, unlike the armies of Napoleon and Hitler. The Germans in WWII also seemed to lack air support. I expect that won't be an issue if we were to fight Russia.
Sure, please tell me how you are going to magically teleport your entire airforce to Europe while being harrassed by the Russian Airforce, Air defenses and Navy. You will need to establish a beachhead to begin with, do not expect any European nations to help out. We know where wars against Russia always end, and we have no desire to be dragged into WW3 by the US.
Also, German soldiers in WW2 were trained in winter combat as much as their Russian adversaries. They also had plenty of air support. Also, the average US conscript is not trained in winter warfare, the professional US army is way too small to even scratch Russia after it mobilises its army.
A sizeable amount of the US airforce is already stationed in Europe... and in bases in the Middle East, both in strike range, along with significant ground forces... and the airforces and armies of her fairly sophisticated allies.
Your suggestion that no European nation would lend aid is nonsense, they already do and you can bet a number more would be eager to lend assistance to the US in the face of a new, conquering Russia at their borders.
So, US, UK, France, Germany, the Scandinavians, former Eastern Block nations, assorted others... I think Russia would find it's self seriously out competed in very short order.
Because these forces would not be invading or attacking, they would be holding and defending a nation. International support would largely be behind the West and denouncing the Russians as aggressors.
2014/03/01 20:18:55
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Ketara wrote: And we've established that you have no problem with coup members breaking criminals out of jail, assaulting elected representatives of the people, claiming governance of the country, and requesting international support for a non-democratic violent regime change. See? I can play with words too.
If it was a case of the Russian tanks rolling into Finland totally unprovoked, I'd be right with you. But here? It's like Syria all over again. No 'good' side to support.
You could. If you could find any statement from myself that supports that position. I'll wait and give you some time to find it. No hurry.
Russian upper house approves use of military force in Ukraine
Simferopol, Ukraine (CNN) -- Russia's upper house of Parliament voted unanimously Saturday to approve sending Russian military forces into Ukraine, amid mounting tensions in the country's Crimea region and in defiance of warnings from Western powers.
The vote followed a request from President Vladimir Putin for approval to send troops into Crimea to normalize the political situation there.
Putin cited the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine" in making his request, adding that the lives of Russian citizens and military personnel based in the southern Crimea region had been threatened.
Ukraine's new government condemned the move.
"We perceive Russia's actions as direct aggression towards the sovereignty of Ukraine," said acting President Oleksandr Turchynov on the Twitter account of his Fatherland party.
The fledgling government in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, is seeking to prevent tensions in Crimea, which has a majority-Russian population, from escalating into a full-blown bid for separation.
Opposition leader Vitali Klitschko said Saturday in a posting on his party's website that he planned to ask Turchynov to call for Parliament to meet in emergency session to vote to invalidate the Black Sea Fleet Naval Base agreement.
Russian troops said to attempt coast guard takeover
Amid the uncertainty, about 300 gunmen wearing Russian special forces uniforms attempted to take over the Sevastopol unit of the Ukrainian Coast Guard, a senior official with the Ukrainian Border Service said Saturday.
The gunmen were positioned outside the Ukrainian Coast Guard building, with local residents standing between the two groups, said Col. Sergii Astakhov, assistant to the chief of the Ukrainian Border Service.
The residents were reportedly trying to negotiate and asking the gunmen not to attack, Astakhov said.
Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Coast Guard had moved its ships to a position away from the coast where they were approached by three motorboats and a cruiser from the Russian Black Sea Fleet, Astakhov said.
The Russian upper house vote came on the day that the newly installed, pro-Russian leader of Crimea, Sergey Aksyonov, asked Putin for help in maintaining peace on the Black Sea peninsula -- where Russia's fleet is based at Sevastopol.
Security forces "are unable to efficiently control the situation in the republic," he said in comments broadcast on Russian state channel Russia 24. Aksyonov was installed as the region's premier after armed men took over the Crimean Parliament building on Thursday.
Aksyonov said Saturday that a referendum on greater Crimean autonomy, originally set for May 25, would be moved to March 30.
Ukrainian government officials suspect Moscow of fomenting separatist tensions in the autonomous region -- and they accused Russia of having already sent troops into its territory.
Yatsenyuk: Russian actions are provocation
Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, speaking Saturday at a Cabinet meeting, called the Russian presence in Crimea "nothing but a provocation."
But, he said, it failed.
"Ukraine will not be provoked, we will not use force, we demand that the government of the Russian Federation immediately withdraw its troops and return to their home bases," he said.
Acting President Turchynov insisted Friday that Ukraine would defend its sovereignty and that "any attempts of intrusion or annexation will have very serious consequences."
Airspace reopened
Ukraine on Friday accused Russian Black Sea forces of trying to seize two airports in Crimea but said Ukrainian security forces had prevented them from taking control.
Groups of armed men, dressed in uniforms without identifying insignia, patrolled the airports in the regional capital, Simferopol, and the nearby port city of Sevastopol.
The armed men remained at the airports Saturday and Yevgey Plaksin, director of the airport in the regional capital, Simferopol, said Crimean airspace would remain closed until evening.
But by 6:30 p.m. Saturday, the airspace had reopened, and airport services were working, Plaksin said.
Unidentified, balaclava-clad armed men took up positions outside the Crimean Parliament building on Saturday, as a small pro-Russian demonstration was held, and controlled who could enter. A roadblock was also reported on the route into the city.
Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaliy Churkin, said Friday that the reports of Russian troops taking charge of positions on the ground were rumors and noted that rumors "are always not true."
"We are acting within the framework of our agreement," he said.
The Russian Foreign Ministry said that maneuvers of armored vehicles from the Russian Black Sea fleet in Crimea were needed for security and were in line with bilateral agreements.
Russia has been conducting a military exercise near its border with Ukraine -- snap drills that Moscow announced Wednesday.
Obama: Warning to Russia
The United States urged Russia on Friday to pull back from the Crimea or face consequences.
"We are now deeply concerned by reports of military movements taken by the Russian Federation inside Ukraine," U.S. President Barack Obama said in televised comments from the White House.
"It would be a clear violation of Russia's commitment to respect the independence and sovereignty and borders of Ukraine and of international laws."
Obama said any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity would be "deeply destabilizing, and he warned "the United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine."
His message was heard in Moscow, where the head of Russia's upper house of Parliament said Saturday that she planned to ask Putin to recall Russia's ambassador to the United States. Valentina Matvienko, chairwoman of the Federal Council, cited "the recent statements by the U.S. President threatening Russia."
The message also reached Congress, where the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee called for an immediate response to Russia's move.
"Every moment that the United States and our allies fail to respond sends the signal to President Putin that he can be even more ambitious and aggressive in his military intervention in Ukraine," Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said in a statement.
He called on Obama to "make clear what costs Russia will face for its aggression and to impose those consequences without further delay."
On Saturday, a U.S. official told CNN's Barbara Starr that Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel had spoken with his Russian counterpart about the crisis.
UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said Saturday that he had asked Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov for a de-escalation of the situation in Crimea and asked that Russia respect Ukraine's sovereignty and independence.
He called the vote by Russia's Parliament "a potentially grave threat to the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine and said the British Foreign Office had summoned Russia's ambassador to Britain.
He said he planned to visit Ukraine on Sunday to meet with government leaders there and to offer "the UK's support for the territorial integrity of Ukraine."
Other world leaders joined an international outcry, with EU High Representative Catherine Ashton deploring Russia's "unwarranted escalation of tensions."
"Russian military intervention in Ukraine is clearly against international law and principles of European security," tweeted Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.
The U.N. Security Council met Saturday afternoon -- for the second consecutive day -- to discuss the situation.
A statement from the spokesperson for Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said he would speak "shortly" with Putin and called "for an immediate restoration of calm and direct dialogue."
Ukrainian leaders and commentators have compared events in Crimea to what happened in Georgia in 2008. Then, cross-border tensions with Russia exploded into a five-day conflict that saw Russian tanks and troops pour into the breakaway territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, as well as Georgian cities. Russia and Georgia each blamed the other for starting the conflict.
Former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told CNN he had warned in 2008 that Ukraine would be next. "Putin is following his blueprint all the way through," he said.
That comparison was noted by Yulia Tymoshenko, who opposed ousted pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych. "They want a war like the one which happened in Abkhazia and Ossetia," she said in a statement on her Fatherland party website.
Ukraine, a nation of 45 million people sandwiched between Europe and Russia's southwestern border, has been plunged into chaos since the ouster a week ago of Yanukovych following bloody street protests.
Yanukovych resurfaced Friday in the southwestern Russian city of Rostov-on-Don, where he told reporters that he had not been overthrown and vowed to fight on for Ukraine's future, but gave little indication that he had the support to do so.
Financial woes
Ukraine's new government faces challenges that go beyond Crimea -- the country is an economic basket case.
A $15 billion loan offer from Russia, extended in November after Yanukovych dropped the EU deal, is on hold.
Russia also promised to slash natural gas prices. However, Russian energy giant Gazprom said Saturday that Ukraine is $1.55 billion in arrears on payments for natural gas deliveries, which may force the firm to cancel the discount it agreed to last year, Russian state-run RIA Novosti news agency said.
Gazprom spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov said that Russia has issued a $3 billion line of credit to Ukraine to help it cover its gas debts -- but that payment obligations must be respected.
Ukrainian authorities have said they will need $35 billion in foreign funds by the end of 2015.
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Tyran wrote: The law in this situation doesn't matter, Crimea doesn't recognize the new government. What can Ukraine do in this situation? invade Crimea? lol no because then it would be a repeat of Georgia. In this moment the ones that will decide the future of Crimea is the Crimeans, and if the new administration in Kiev is unable to improve the way they are perceived in Crimea then the country is going to tear itself apart. Russia needs the support of Crimea and the declarations of the new government only push Crimea more in Russia's arms.
The law does absolutely matter. Just because the government has been ousted does not mean that the nation state has ceased to exist. Ukraine still has international borders that must be respected. The events in Kiev do not give thos in Crimea the legal standing to invite in a foreign military presence, especially when there is no threat to people in that region.
If Crimea wants to secede then they should do so via whatever mechanisms exist within Ukraine's constitution, or international law. That does not include asking a foreign country to invade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/01 20:26:24
2014/03/01 20:30:24
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
For one thing; the US would be on its own, Europe does not have the desire nor the capabillities to threaten Russia.
I hate to stop you dead there, but if the combined forces of all the European nations mobilised to crush Russia, it would be crushed. France and Britain combined have as many people as Russia alone.
Secondly, the technological superiority of the West does not come into question here. We are not talking about some 3rd world country using outdated Soviet equipment, this is Russia itself we are talking about. The latest Russian technology is as advanced, if not more so than any Western tech.
Not quite. As I said earlier, we do still have something of a march on Russia. They've come along very nicely of late, but the fifteen year stopgap in R&D is still holding them back, as is the fact that the West shares technological secrets somewhat. If Britain makes a discovery, the Americans tend to be kitted out with it shortly afterwards, and vice versa. Russia has to develop everything itself.
When Russia has a 5th Gen fighter in the field, or access to the new stealth plating for ships, maybe then.
The only thing the US has above Russia is larger numbers.
And technology. And a larger economy.
Russia has a lot more tanks, and those are still the deciding factor in a war.
No. Tanks have not been a deciding factor in war for about sixty years. Too many hand-propelled weapons, mines, aircraft, and drones. There's even been talk of late of scrapping tanks altogether. Whilst I believe they still have a role, we're a long way from Liddell-Hart and Guderian's wet dreams.
America could never bring its entire airforce to Russia, while Russia has its entire airforce available.
Between the Wasps and the Nimitz's, America can haul at least a quarter as many aircraft as Russia has available to it. Add in German airbases, and other places in Europe, and America could match it numerically without too much effort. When you realise that a good half of the Russian airforce is more then a little technically inferior, you realise that they wouldn't even need a parity of force.
Coupled with the fact that Russia has the most advanced anti-aircraft measures in the world,
Source?
I would say that America would have a hard time wresting air superiority. Especially considering Russia could sink any American ship close to Russian shores with its massive array of anti-ship missiles and submarine fleet.
No.
The 1st rule on the 1st page of the Book of War states: 'Do not march on Moscow.'
Who marches these days? We drive. Or fly. Or take the train.
Not to mention that the days of dirt track roads are long gone. There won't be another mudbath to hold back the tide.
Underestimating Russia and attacking it on its own soil has been the last mistake of everyone to ever attempt that. Fighting Russia on its own territory is madness. There are few peoples that are so stubborn and fanatical in the defense of their 'Sacred Motherland' as the Russians are.
Russia's military has really made vast changes the last decade. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Trust me, the US is not capable of militarily defeating Russia on its own territory.
Anyone who thinks so is a madman and should join the likes of Napoleon and Hitler.
Napoleon took Moscow. He just didn't know what to do afterwards, and didn't have air supply.
I think we should not let this devolve into a Russia vs US debate, as those are impossible to resolve, since tactics and strategy and unpredictable circumstances play a far more deciding role in war than numbers or technology, but I do want to make one last post on this.
Your ignorance of Russia is plainly obvious. During the '90s, technical innovation in Russia did not suddenly grind to a halt. It almost did, but research in the areas of artillery and rocket science, where Russia has always had the lead, and which are paramount to Russian military doctrine, continued.
Fact is that Russian air defenses are just as sophisticated and cheaper to manufacture than Western ones. I don't have all the facts ready, but a simple trip on the Internet should yield plenty of results.
Russia has also succeeded in building missiles that can easily evade any currently existing missile defense system, something the West is yet to accomplish.
In all other areas the West is ahead, but missile technology does happen to be quite important in modern warfare.
Besides, Russia is excellent at espionage. Any technological advance by the West is almost immediatly picked up by Russia (and vice versa). Russia does not have to invent anything itself.
If all the nations of Europe were to unite, they could beat Russia, at least if they would mobilise their entire populations. wouldn't be dependent on Russian gas, wouldn't run the risk of being wiped of the Earth's surface by Russian missiles and actually had the will to fight Russia.
Tanks are far from invincible and more vulnerable than in the past. On the open field they are still the most dominant factor however.
American aircraft carriers would be the first targets for the Russian missiles and submarines, it would be suicide to take those into range. Aircraft carriers are powerful, but very, very vulnerable. This isn't WW2 anymore, aircraft carriers can be destroyed by land- or ship based missiles from hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away.
The days of dirt tracks are long gone? Maybe, but those of freezing winters aren't.
Napoleon only took Moscow because it was part of the Russian strategy. They burned it on purpose so Napoleons soldiers would starve to death.
Warfare has changed since WW2, but large scale, conventional warfare between modern armies hasn't happened since and armies will still need to eat. Russia is too large. Supply lines will become overstretched, cut off by partisans and the assault will grind to a halt in winter. That happened to Napolean, that happened to Hitler, that happened to any invader in modern Russian history. It will happen again, history has a nasty way of repeating itself.
Apart from all these considerations there is also the fact that Russia has a military alliance with China, which is also very eager to engage the West and overtake it as #1 Superpower in the world.
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2014/03/01 20:41:16
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Same as Desert Storm, Air Superiority. The ex-soviet army is a backwards and antiquated rabble.
Not so much. Putin's spent a lot of time and money reorganising, retraining, and re-equipping the Russian military over the last decade or so. Twenty years ago, you'd have been right, but things have changed somewhat.
Twenty years ago the entire nation was teetering on total collapse and the possibility of military insurrections. I know he's been throwing cash at it for a while, but most everything I've read suggests that it's still a corruption riddled, morale lacking and highly disorganized force. NATO forces, removing the use of nukes, which I don't think would be seen deployed over a foreign soil grab, would kick the seven shades out of the Russian Army. Especially given NATO love of taking apart lines of communication and infrastructure first.
As to massed armour, mentioned by that amusing poster earlier, again, air superiority totally neutralizes that and we'd be seeing roads full of dead tanks soon enough, gutted by depleted uranium rounds and such.
Russia is a tough cookie when you hold it up to it's former conquests, it really doesn't rank up when you put it against the technological superiority of the West.
For one thing; the US would be on its own, Europe does not have the desire nor the capabillities to threaten Russia.
Secondly, the technological superiority of the West does not come into question here. We are not talking about some 3rd world country using outdated Soviet equipment, this is Russia itself we are talking about. The latest Russian technology is as advanced, if not more so than any Western tech. The only thing the US has above Russia is larger numbers. The US has more soldiers, more aircraft and more ships than Russia.
Russia has a lot more tanks, and those are still the deciding factor in a war. Aircraft have a good supporting role, but they do not win wars on their own. America could never bring its entire airforce to Russia, while Russia has its entire airforce available. Coupled with the fact that Russia has the most advanced anti-aircraft measures in the world, I would say that America would have a hard time wresting air superiority. Especially considering Russia could sink any American ship close to Russian shores with its massive array of anti-ship missiles and submarine fleet.
The 1st rule on the 1st page of the Book of War states: 'Do not march on Moscow.' Underestimating Russia and attacking it on its own soil has been the last mistake of everyone to ever attempt that. Fighting Russia on its own territory is madness. There are few peoples that are so stubborn and fanatical in the defense of their 'Sacred Motherland' as the Russians are.
Russia's military has really made vast changes the last decade. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Trust me, the US is not capable of militarily defeating Russia on its own territory.
Anyone who thinks so is a madman and should join the likes of Napoleon and Hitler.
Noone was talking about invading Russia, we were discussing combating an invading Russian force in Ukraine.
"Tanks are the deciding factor in a war'... You need to take a closer look at all wars since the 50s...
'The latest Russian technology is more advanced than Western tech'.... this is fascinating, what are you basing this on?
'The US would be on its own, Europe does not have the desire nor the capabillities to threaten Russia.'... NATO is NATO, treaties have been signed and, again, the West is a fairly unified unit when it comes to the US getting into it with another power, especially one that's invading from the East.
"Coupled with the fact that Russia has the most advanced anti-aircraft measures in the world, I would say that America would have a hard time wresting air superiority. "... America's air superiority isn't just number one, it's number one by a vast degree, it would own the skies in short order.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Russia is a tough cookie when you hold it up to it's former conquests, it really doesn't rank up when you put it against the technological superiority of the West.
And the fact that we train to survive and fight in cold winters, unlike the armies of Napoleon and Hitler. The Germans in WWII also seemed to lack air support. I expect that won't be an issue if we were to fight Russia.
Sure, please tell me how you are going to magically teleport your entire airforce to Europe while being harrassed by the Russian Airforce, Air defenses and Navy. You will need to establish a beachhead to begin with, do not expect any European nations to help out. We know where wars against Russia always end, and we have no desire to be dragged into WW3 by the US.
Also, German soldiers in WW2 were trained in winter combat as much as their Russian adversaries. They also had plenty of air support. Also, the average US conscript is not trained in winter warfare, the professional US army is way too small to even scratch Russia after it mobilises its army.
A sizeable amount of the US airforce is already stationed in Europe... and in bases in the Middle East, both in strike range, along with significant ground forces... and the airforces and armies of her fairly sophisticated allies.
Your suggestion that no European nation would lend aid is nonsense, they already do and you can bet a number more would be eager to lend assistance to the US in the face of a new, conquering Russia at their borders.
So, US, UK, France, Germany, the Scandinavians, former Eastern Block nations, assorted others... I think Russia would find it's self seriously out competed in very short order.
Because these forces would not be invading or attacking, they would be holding and defending a nation. International support would largely be behind the West and denouncing the Russians as aggressors.
Really. Europeans (or at least the Dutch, Germans and Scandinavians) have no desire to be at war with Russia. It would damage their own interests and put their people in danger. Not to mention we have no big love for the US, the US has not much credit left here.
NATO is NATO, a fractious antiquated and untested alliance of nations with sometimes wildly conflicting interests since the end of WW2.
Russia would be outcompeted, but the West would not be capable of actually invading and occupying Russia itself for a number of very obvious issues that can't possibly be ignored. Russia has the power to wipe the entire West from the face of the Earth in a matter of minutes, and trust me, Russians are crazy enough to lauch those nukes if they are losing. Most Russians would prefer to destroy the world rather than bow their heads to a hated and foreign oppressor.
Also, if we bring allies into the game we have to bring the CSTO, SCO and China in here as well.
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2014/03/01 20:41:57
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Apart from all these considerations there is also the fact that Russia has a military alliance with China, which is also very eager to engage the West and overtake it as #1 Superpower in the world.
Bollocks.
China wants trade and economic prosperity to continue.
It would be in no way interested in a military fall out with it's colossal customer, the US. It would not value an alliance with Russia in any way over a potential economic disaster and might even view Russia's falling out with the US and the West as the opportunity to grab some Russian soil...
2014/03/01 20:48:54
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Apart from all these considerations there is also the fact that Russia has a military alliance with China, which is also very eager to engage the West and overtake it as #1 Superpower in the world.
Bollocks.
China wants trade and economic prosperity to continue.
It would be in no way interested in a military fall out with it's colossal customer, the US. It would not value an alliance with Russia in any way over a potential economic disaster and might even view Russia's falling out with the US and the West as the opportunity to grab some Russian soil...
That is a non-argument, the same could be said for the European NATO states.
The alliance has already been signed several years ago, and China would have much, very much to gain from winning a war against the US. It would establish China as the number #1 superpower and they do not need to fear economical consequences, as they could put their entire population to work in the defense industry and army.
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2014/03/01 20:55:25
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Maybe Ukraine could make things very easy for Russia. If Russia unilaterally ignores the 1994 treaty, then perhaps the next Ukrainian government could scrap any deal with the Russian's concerning their military installations on Ukrainian soil, and demand that they leave.
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Iron_Captain wrote: That is a non-argument, the same could be said for the European NATO states.
The alliance has already been signed several years ago, and China would have much, very much to gain from winning a war against the US. It would establish China as the number #1 superpower and they do not need to fear economical consequences, as they could put their entire population to work in the defense industry and army.
Yes, I'm sure China would be thrilled to go to war with one of the countries that owe them the most money.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/01 20:58:39
2014/03/01 21:05:11
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Apart from all these considerations there is also the fact that Russia has a military alliance with China, which is also very eager to engage the West and overtake it as #1 Superpower in the world.
Bollocks.
China wants trade and economic prosperity to continue.
It would be in no way interested in a military fall out with it's colossal customer, the US. It would not value an alliance with Russia in any way over a potential economic disaster and might even view Russia's falling out with the US and the West as the opportunity to grab some Russian soil...
That is a non-argument, the same could be said for the European NATO states.
The alliance has already been signed several years ago, and China would have much, very much to gain from winning a war against the US. It would establish China as the number #1 superpower and they do not need to fear economical consequences, as they could put their entire population to work in the defense industry and army.
Bollocks again, China wins nothing by losing its number one customer. Trade between the US and China helps keep the CCP in power and maintains stability. They lose that and if China suffers any damage in a war, all hell will break loose and that is the last thing the CCP wants. But the point is moot because the US has not talked about or (at least I doubt) would want to invade Russia.
And to use your example with NATO, just because there is a treaty does not mean China would join Russia in a shooting war with the US.
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2014/03/01 21:08:20
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Well...I welcome Russia advancement into the void being left as the US slowly removes itself from the world "playing field". Quite a few of you cannot understand why we have such a huge Military where the money funding it can be spent else where. Some view of us in interfering in areas where we should not have, etc etc etc.US interest for US interest only.
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2014/03/01 21:10:53
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Dreadclaw69 wrote: Maybe Ukraine could make things very easy for Russia. If Russia unilaterally ignores the 1994 treaty, then perhaps the next Ukrainian government could scrap any deal with the Russian's concerning their military installations on Ukrainian soil, and demand that they leave.
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Iron_Captain wrote: That is a non-argument, the same could be said for the European NATO states.
The alliance has already been signed several years ago, and China would have much, very much to gain from winning a war against the US. It would establish China as the number #1 superpower and they do not need to fear economical consequences, as they could put their entire population to work in the defense industry and army.
Yes, I'm sure China would be thrilled to go to war with one of the countries that owe them the most money.
If those installations are still on Ukrainian soil by then, that is. Besides, how does a tiny dwarf demand something from a giant?
And yes, China would be thrilled to do so if they stood a chance of winning. Winning wars is a very profitable business you know. You can demand huge repayments for 'damage done' and stuff like that. There is really nothing more that China wants than to become the absolute number 1 and to turn the US into some compliant vassal state. Not being properly recognised as a world superpower is somewhat of a national trauma for the Chinese.
Why wouldn't China want to defeat the US? It would dramatically enhance their prestige, give them an enormous economical boost and give them practical hegemony over the entire world.
The only thing stopping them is the fact that China is not yet strong enough to invade and defeat the US. But combined with Russia, who knows?
In any case, I think the discussion is pointless as Russia, China and the US are extremely unlikely to declare war on each other anyways. The US has little to gain in such wars but much too lose, and Russia and China are content with the current situation.
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2014/03/01 21:44:20
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Winning wars is a very profitable business you know. You can demand huge repayments for 'damage done' and stuff like that.
Made my day Thanks
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2014/03/01 21:53:11
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the Prime Minister Ukraine’s self-imposed government, had earlier asked his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan not to let the frigate through the Bosporus strait, according to the Kiev Times. The ship captain and the head of Ukraine’s contingent in the operation, Rear Admiral Andrey Tarasov disobeyed orders from Kiev.
Putin Russian Navy +1 ship. Wonder how many are going to follow. Since the Ukraine government is soup sandwich how is the military being paid and supplied? In Crimea......
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2014/03/01 22:06:00
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
All this military penis comparing is great (and hilarious) and all, but I doubt it will end up as a full scale war. If it did, that would definitely be bloody terrible for all involved.
I hope all the various leaders involved are pragmatic enough to understand that.
Though I could see Russia absorbing Crimea. In that case, I am sceptical that foreign leaders will do much of anything, unless Ukraine descends into a bloody civil war.
Though I could see Russia absorbing Crimea. In that case, I am sceptical that foreign leaders will do much of anything, unless Ukraine descends into a bloody civil war.
I see that happening. UN will try to implement a Peace Keeping Force solution but being on Russia own door step I see them coming in on the Eastern half of Ukraine gaining its heavy metal industries.
Edit
We need another Reagan
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/01 22:17:33
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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2014/03/01 22:20:26
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Iron_Captain wrote: If those installations are still on Ukrainian soil by then, that is. Besides, how does a tiny dwarf demand something from a giant?
The same way every other country does. Or are you saying that the Ukraine should bow before a bully.
Iron_Captain wrote: And yes, China would be thrilled to do so if they stood a chance of winning. Winning wars is a very profitable business you know. You can demand huge repayments for 'damage done' and stuff like that. There is really nothing more that China wants than to become the absolute number 1 and to turn the US into some compliant vassal state. Not being properly recognised as a world superpower is somewhat of a national trauma for the Chinese.
Why wouldn't China want to defeat the US? It would dramatically enhance their prestige, give them an enormous economical boost and give them practical hegemony over the entire world.
The only thing stopping them is the fact that China is not yet strong enough to invade and defeat the US. But combined with Russia, who knows?
In any case, I think the discussion is pointless as Russia, China and the US are extremely unlikely to declare war on each other anyways. The US has little to gain in such wars but much too lose, and Russia and China are content with the current situation.
So China wants to be absolute number one, big dog in the world.... but you can currently only see them achieving this with the support of Russia. And even if they go to war with someone who already owes them trillions you think that somehow after an expensive military adventure that country will be able to pony up massive amounts of money in an economy that produces very little manufactured goods.
2014/03/01 22:33:26
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Chinese Military foot hold in America already.....
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2014/03/01 22:45:09
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
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2014/03/01 23:25:16
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
A White House statement on President Barack Obama's conversation with Russian President Vldaimir Putin:
President Obama spoke for 90 minutes this afternoon with President Putin of Russia about the situation in Ukraine. President Obama expressed his deep concern over Russia’s clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a breach of international law, including Russia’s obligations under the UN Charter, and of its 1997 military basing agreement with Ukraine, and which is inconsistent with the 1994 Budapest Memorandum and the Helsinki Final Act. The United States condemns Russia’s military intervention into Ukrainian territory.
The United States calls on Russia to de-escalate tensions by withdrawing its forces back to bases in Crimea and to refrain from any interference elsewhere in Ukraine. We have consistently said that we recognize Russia’s deep historic and cultural ties to Ukraine and the need to protect the rights of ethnic Russian and minority populations within Ukraine. The Ukrainian government has made clear its commitment to protect the rights of all Ukrainians and to abide by Ukraine’s international commitments, and we will continue to urge them to do so.
President Obama told President Putin that, if Russia has concerns about the treatment of ethnic Russian and minority populations in Ukraine, the appropriate way to address them is peacefully through direct engagement with the government of Ukraine and through the dispatch of international observers under the auspices of the United Nations Security Council or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). As a member of both organizations, Russia would be able to participate. President Obama urged an immediate effort to initiate a dialogue between Russia and the Ukrainian government, with international facilitation, as appropriate. The United States is prepared to participate.
President Obama made clear that Russia’s continued violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity would negatively impact Russia’s standing in the international community. In the coming hours and days, the United States will urgently consult with allies and partners in the UN Security Council, the North Atlantic Council, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and with the signatories of the Budapest Memorandum. The United States will suspend upcoming participation in preparatory meetings for the G-8. Going forward, Russia’s continued violation of international law will lead to greater political and economic isolation.
The people of Ukraine have the right to determine their own future. President Obama has directed his Administration to continue working urgently with international partners to provide support for the Ukrainian government, including urgent technical and financial assistance. Going forward, we will continue consulting closely with allies and partners, the Ukrainian government and the International Monetary Fund, to provide the new government with significant assistance to secure financial stability, to support needed reforms, to allow Ukraine to conduct successful elections, and to support Ukraine as it pursues a democratic future.
2014/03/01 23:31:21
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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2014/03/01 23:42:59
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Wait...who was legally elected to lead the country? Ysomethingorotherrussianname in Russia?
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
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2014/03/02 00:23:10
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Jihadin wrote: Wait...who was legally elected to lead the country? Ysomethingorotherrussianname in Russia?
No one yet, the rebels installed their government and eastern Ukraine doesn't recognize it. One could argue that Yanu is still the president, but nobody likes him, not even Putin.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 00:23:45
2014/03/02 00:36:46
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the making of a dictatorship, live!
Jihadin wrote: Wait...who was legally elected to lead the country? Ysomethingorotherrussianname in Russia?
Yanukovich was legally elected as leader to the country, whereas the current leaders are not, which is the reason Russia denounces the current leadership of the Ukraine as illegitimate.
So far bloodless at that...
