Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**Da Boss**

Ouze, I know you're married. And I'm pretty sure you're happy. And my girlfriend is awesome. But. Do you think there's a future for us?

**Ouze**

I think Kronk gay married me to Frazzled a few days ago, sorry

**Jihadin**

So if the legitimate President ask for help from Putin...UN, EU, and Obama does not have a leg to stand on. Even Twelve pack say Putin take half of Ukraine at most.

**Da Boss**

Ouze wrote:
I think Kronk gay married me to Frazzled a few days ago, sorry

Story of my life, man.

**Kanluwen**

Jihadin wrote:
So if the legitimate President ask for help from Putin...UN, EU, and Obama does not have a leg to stand on. Even Twelve pack say Putin take half of Ukraine at most.

The "legitimate President" is in exile, having fled.

The UN, EU, and US are recognizing the "illegitimate" government as legitimate.

**Jihadin**

Yet Putin hasn't. So like Ywhatchamacallit ask for help and he's is the duly elected President elected by the people then we're having an issue of "Double Standards". Putin wins regardless

**Kanluwen**

China doesn't recognize Tibet, doesn't stop the rest of the world from doing so now does it?

**Jihadin**

China not moving into Tibet now are they?

**d-usa**

Jihadin wrote:
China not moving into Tibet now are they?

Seriously?

**Jihadin**

Just to clarify D-USA....Russia moved into Crimea. As I mention before on this. Russia moved on to both airports close to their Naval Base. Secured a Comm Center. Hence securing logistical line. China has not moved into Tibet. Same as China has not moved against Taiwan.

KK

Glad your tracking now.
Stay Frosty D-USA

**d-usa**

So how long has China not invaded Tibet now?

**Jihadin**

Edit

Edit
Woops. Mixed it up with Nepal. My fault. Still though since we're reaching back again in history for a debate. Tibet...1949...none of us was alive at the time. Why do I care? Why should I care? Tibet been in China control for 65 years. Not a thing we can do about it can we.

Stay Frosty D-USA

**KamikazeCanuck**

Yes, no one was alive when China invaded Tibet

We should let the Dalai Lama know.

**Breotan**

Kanluwen wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
So if the legitimate President ask for help from Putin...UN, EU, and Obama does not have a leg to stand on. Even Twelve pack say Putin take half of Ukraine at most.
The "legitimate President" is in exile, having fled.

The UN, EU, and US are recognizing the "illegitimate" government as legitimate.

This sounds like the plot of Game of Thrones. Except we're being led by the Tully woman.

**Grey Templar**

Breotan wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
So if the legitimate President ask for help from Putin...UN, EU, and Obama does not have a leg to stand on. Even Twelve pack say Putin take half of Ukraine at most.
The "legitimate President" is in exile, having fled.

The UN, EU, and US are recognizing the "illegitimate" government as legitimate.
This sounds like the plot of Game of Thrones. Except we're being led by the Tully woman.

So when does Putin ride in on a white horse and fornicate with his sister?

**Seaward**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
But that won't happen will it. Remember the pundits before Desert Storm? All the talk of months of conflict, the US airpower greased the pride of Iraq without breaking a sweat.

Same as Desert Storm, Air Superiority. The ex-soviet army is a backwards and antiquated rabble.

We could beat Russia in a conventional war. We could beat Russia in an air war. That said, I would not take Russian air defense capability lightly.

**dogma**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

The law does absolutely matter. Just because the government has been ousted does not mean that the nation state has ceased to exist.

The nation persists, but the nation-state does not. Indeed, as I noted a few pages ago, Russia's move into Crimea is likely based on a lack of confidence that the present "government" will honor the Russian lease in Sevastopol.

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Ukraine still has international borders that must be respected.

The US doesn't respect international borders, so why should Russia? Hell, their claim to Crimea is way stronger than the US claim to establish no-fly zones in Iraq, or carry out drone strikes in Pakistan.

**Jihadin**

Three-Four years out of date but pretty the Bear claw is stuck in

In the political field, Russia is the undisputable winner. Sevastopol, which has been home to the Russian Black Sea fleet since it was set up by Catherine II the Great at the end of the 18th century, will continue to be so until 2042. Consequently, given the fact that NATO’s charter prevents country members from having foreign military bases on their territory, Ukraine will not become a member of the Western military alliance until the lease expires or is subverted.

Goes "get em NATO quick" option

Ukraine has been in a dire economic situation since the world financial crisis hit the former Soviet republic in the fourth quarter of 2008. This accord will enable Kiev to save about US$2.8 billion this year alone, and US$4billion annually from 2011 throughout 2020 (or nearly US$40 billion over the period), in exchange for extending the Russian Black Sea fleet’s lease in Sevastopol until 2042 [2]. This means that Russia will give a 30% discount on Ukraine’s gas imports, or approximately US$100 per 1000 cubic meters. The rebate will apply for 30 billion cubic meters sold this year and 40 billion cubic meters annually from 2011 to 2019, according to Gazprom, the Russian national energy company. Ukraine also agreed to increase its gas imports by 10% this year, from 33.75 to 36.5 billion cubic meters.

Oil........always about the oil.....

Additionally, to the best of our knowledge, the Russian fleet in Sevastopol is almost obsolete and not combat ready, as the ships and infrastructure, which date back to the Soviet times, have not been modernized. “The base is not worth even US$0.5 billion”, argued Ariel Cohen, a leading expert at the Heritage Foundation. This is likely why the Russian government is insistent on pur¬chasing the French Mistral-class amphibious assault ship ; if everything goes according to schedule, Moscow and Paris will strike a deal by the end of 2010 [5]. At the same time, though, Russia has been building a new naval base in Novorossiysk (in Krasnodar Krai on the Russian Black Sea coast) since 2003. That year, acting President Vladimir Putin signed a presidential decree setting up the base and allocating about US$480 million for its construction between 2003 and 2012, which is no token investment. The construction of the other facilities and infrastructure (aviation, logistics, and coastal troops) are also underway and should be finished by 2020. In the meantime, the Russian military victory against Georgia in early August 2008, and the recognition of the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Os¬setia by Moscow at the end of the same month, enabled Russia to build up its military presence ever since. Russia is now building a naval base in Gudauta on the Abkhazian coast, where 1500 soldiers are already stationed, and whose number may be increased up to 4000 when the entire infrastructure is completed.

That's a pretty penny...

Oh Come on Grey Temp....its a MAJESTIC WHITE STALLION.....

**Ketara**

Spoiler:

Iron_Captain wrote:

I think we should not let this devolve into a Russia vs US debate, as those are impossible to resolve, since tactics and strategy and unpredictable circumstances play a far more deciding role in war than numbers or technology, but I do want to make one last post on this.

Your ignorance of Russia is plainly obvious. During the '90s, technical innovation in Russia did not suddenly grind to a halt. It almost did, but research in the areas of artillery and rocket science, where Russia has always had the lead, and which are paramount to Russian military doctrine, continued.
Fact is that Russian air defenses are just as sophisticated and cheaper to manufacture than Western ones. I don't have all the facts ready, but a simple trip on the Internet should yield plenty of results.
Russia has also succeeded in building missiles that can easily evade any currently existing missile defense system, something the West is yet to accomplish.
In all other areas the West is ahead, but missile technology does happen to be quite important in modern warfare.
Besides, Russia is excellent at espionage. Any technological advance by the West is almost immediatly picked up by Russia (and vice versa). Russia does not have to invent anything itself.

If all the nations of Europe were to unite, they could beat Russia, at least if they would mobilise their entire populations. wouldn't be dependent on Russian gas, wouldn't run the risk of being wiped of the Earth's surface by Russian missiles and actually had the will to fight Russia.

Tanks are far from invincible and more vulnerable than in the past. On the open field they are still the most dominant factor however.

American aircraft carriers would be the first targets for the Russian missiles and submarines, it would be suicide to take those into range. Aircraft carriers are powerful, but very, very vulnerable. This isn't WW2 anymore, aircraft carriers can be destroyed by land- or ship based missiles from hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away.

The days of dirt tracks are long gone? Maybe, but those of freezing winters aren't.

Napoleon only took Moscow because it was part of the Russian strategy. They burned it on purpose so Napoleons soldiers would starve to death.
Warfare has changed since WW2, but large scale, conventional warfare between modern armies hasn't happened since and armies will still need to eat. Russia is too large. Supply lines will become overstretched, cut off by partisans and the assault will grind to a halt in winter. That happened to Napolean, that happened to Hitler, that happened to any invader in modern Russian history. It will happen again, history has a nasty way of repeating itself.

Apart from all these considerations there is also the fact that Russia has a military alliance with China, which is also very eager to engage the West and overtake it as #1 Superpower in the world.

Neighbour, I agree. That's leave it there. Simply because this isn't the right thread for that debate. I do have something along the lines of professional accreditation in this field, and am able to substantiate more or less everything I say. But that turns my play into work, no?

Back on topic.

Da Boss wrote:Though I could see Russia absorbing Crimea.

One of the latest updates:-

The Russian leader held detailed phone discussions on “various aspects of the extraordinary situation in Ukraine" with US President Barack Obama, the Kremlin press service reported.

Putin stressed that in the case of further spread of violence in the eastern regions of Ukraine and Crimea, Russia reserves the right to protect their interests and the Russian speaking population.

Putin's not just aiming for the Crimea. He's laying the groundwork to absorb/set up a new puppet state for the entire part of the Ukraine which has a strong Russian ethnicity. If I could just draw your attention back to this chart here:-

Jihadin wrote:So who's actually legally in charge of Ukraine?

The people in Kiev say they are, but in reality, they seem to control diddly squat and weren't elected by anyone. They keep saying, 'Don't make us use the Army!' and hoping that alone makes the Russians back off, because they know they don't have control of it. The ex-President also says he should be in charge legally, but he's nothing more than a Russian catspaw now.

**easysauce**

Russia’s Federation Council has unanimously approved President Vladimir Putin’s request to use Russian military forces in Ukraine. The move is aimed to settle the turmoil in the split country.

http://rt.com/news/russia-ukraine-approve-miltary-371/

russia obviously reporting this long before western papers,

but the troops are officially in.

**Jihadin**

Hold one. I'm under the impression its Russian Marines from Sevastapol Naval Station being used. Took control of both airports and a comm center. One airport is near Sevastopol Naval Station itself and the other airport located near the intersection of two major highways of M17and M18 located at Simferpol. Pretty much keeping a logistical lifeline from both Airport to the Naval Station by Air. Under 50 miles. If so then that's pretty much it. Unless they roll across the Russian border into Crimea and literally drive down M17.

How I know? I can read a map from a military perspective

http://www.alpina.cz/images/zajezdy/krym-cyklo/krym-mapa.jpg

**Ketara**

The newly-elected pro-Moscow leader of Crimea, Sergiy Aksyonov, earlier said he had appealed to Mr Putin for help to ensure peace on the peninsula - a request which the Kremlin said it would "not leave unnoticed".

The interim government in Kiev does not recognise Mr Aksyonov and his government, and signed a decree on Saturday that their election at an emergency session of the regional parliament this week was illegal.

This genuinely made me laugh. The unelected interim government in Kiev says that decisions made by the elected leader of autonomous Crimea are illegal.

**Relapse**

This lady is hilarious, kind of all over the boards, but had some things about Obama nailed:

http://barracudabrigade.blogspot.com/2014/03/smoking-hot-judge-jeanine-obliterates.html

**dogma**

When did this thread become about Obama?

I thought it was about the Ukraine, and the political situation within that state.

**Ouze**

Careful - while the people off-top'ing it are not problematic, complaining about them off-topic'ing is very problematic.

**Relapse**

dogma wrote:
When did this thread become about Obama?

She's talking about Obama's general handling of the current situation in the Ukraine.

**d-usa**

He handles the situation better than whoever build that horrible website...

**Seaward**

I'd put them on par.

**d-usa**

It's like geocities meets MySpace...

**dogma**

Relapse wrote:

She's talking about Obama's general handling of the current situation in the Ukraine.

I stopped listening after "...clueless on the war-front..." What war-front?

Though the misuse of "affectless" made me laugh.

Ouze wrote:
Careful - while the people off-top'ing it are not problematic, complaining about them off-topic'ing is very problematic.

Clearly this is Obama's greatest sin.