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 Ketara wrote:
Mate, if you honestly see having a friendly debate on Dakka as 'fueling the fire', you really need to take a chill pill. I think I'll take the jump here on this little exchange, because you really don't seem to be able to calm either your rhetoric or yourself, let alone actually respond in a logical and consistent fashion.

I genuinely hope whatever ruined your day gets better, you have a pleasant week at work, and we can have a different, more productive debate sometime in the future.

Nothing has ruined my day, thank you for asking. My responses have been consistent, clear, and logical thank you very much. The rebuttals I have read..... not so much

Buddy, I genuinely hope that you are able to substantiate whatever point you make next time and don't have to resort to distortions, leaps of logic, and unfounded accusations to progress polite discussion or friendly debate


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why is it scary. What media are you reading where this is a potential issue? I'll admit that historically its Democratic presidents that start US involvement in wars, but we're not going to get involved at all. Absent strongly worded letters and some face saving nonsense that will be it. All of Ukraine could go by...meh. It stops at Poland.

if I were in Lithuania, Latvia etc. though, I'd plan on leaving inthe next three years.

If I had a similar agreement with the US as they did with the Ukraine I'd be nervous

Did anyone require more proof as to why the Crimeans are afraid of Kiev's new regime? http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nationalists-fears-video-674/ It is because those kinds of people are involved in it. Similiar groups massacred the Poles in western Ukraine in the 1940's, and now many ethnic Russians are afraid they are next to ethnically cleansed, considering the hatred towards Russians in much of the western Ukraine.
Now I am not saying that is what is going to happen, but many ethnic Russians do feel that the new regime is very hostile towards them, and therefore many of them would prefer to join Russia. http://rt.com/news/ukrainians-leave-russia-border-452/
And lets be honest, the new regime's actions until now have not been particularly friendly towards Russians.

The Soviet predeccessor to the KGB executed the Polish officers. I don't know what nonsense you're on about. Is Putin spamming the internetz now with more than his manly chesticles?

The regime that's been in power for about a week, and which saw Russia invade the nation within days?

Couldn't imagine why they'd be hostile to Russia...

 Frazzled wrote:
The Soviet predeccessor to the KGB executed the Polish officers. I don't know what nonsense you're on about. Is Putin spamming the internetz now with more than his manly chesticles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

The regime that's been in power for about a week, and which saw Russia invade the nation within days?

Couldn't imagine why they'd be hostile to Russia...

One of their first action when in power was to cancel a law that allowed Russian to be used as an official language in regions with a significant Russian minority.
Also, if you can't imagine why they'd be hostile to Russia, you probably don't know all the history behind it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The Soviet predeccessor to the KGB executed the Polish officers. I don't know what nonsense you're on about. Is Putin spamming the internetz now with more than his manly chesticles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

The regime that's been in power for about a week, and which saw Russia invade the nation within days?

Couldn't imagine why they'd be hostile to Russia...

One of their first action when in power was to cancel a law that allowed Russian to be used as an official language in regions with a significant Russian minority.
Also, if you can't imagine why they'd be hostile to Russia, you probably don't know all the history behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 Frazzled wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Could you explain to me what the Katyn massacre has to do with this?

70 years of political, economic, and religious repression by the Soviets can really make a country hate you. The Holodomor killed 2.4-7.5 million Ukrainians. I can see why they wouldn't like Russia.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Could you explain to me what the Katyn massacre has to do with this?

Care to explain what yours does?

Ukraine is an independent country. I'm as surprised as you but they are. Just because there are people who speak Russian there - so what? There are English speakers all over the place. That doesn't mean the UK go around and invade any country it wants.

Thats the same argument Hitler used.



Godwin for the win!!!

So Poland has called for an emergency meeting of NATO for article four consultations.

Canada and Poland have the balls to actually do something beyond harsh words, hopefully they can spur the rest of NATO to do something more than giving Putin a stern talking to.

Also I forget who said it but there was a big post a couple pages ago about how awesome the new Russian army is and how much better than Europe it is and all that. I encourage you to go read some articles written by observers to the fighting in Georgia. The Russian army bumbled through that conflict just like it did in Chechnya. Their airforce had trouble with close air support and deliver of precision guided munitions. Communication between ground and air units was nonexistent. Russian army units were slow to react to operational changes and the general conduct of their conscript soldiers was terrible.

EmilCrane, a lot can change in 6 years... I don t expect those problems are fixed, but they have got a lot better.

 EmilCrane wrote:
So Poland has called for an emergency meeting of NATO for article four consultations.

Canada and Poland have the balls to actually do something beyond harsh words, hopefully they can spur the rest of NATO to do something more than giving Putin a stern talking to.

LIKE WHAT?
WHY?
The Ukraine is not NATO. It was formerly in the USSR to begin with. It has nothing to do with the US.

Also I forget who said it but there was a big post a couple pages ago about how awesome the new Russian army is and how much better than Europe it is and all that. I encourage you to go read some articles written by observers to the fighting in Georgia. The Russian army bumbled through that conflict just like it did in Chechnya. Their airforce had trouble with close air support and deliver of precision guided munitions. Communication between ground and air units was nonexistent. Russian army units were slow to react to operational changes and the general conduct of their conscript soldiers was terrible.

SO WHAT?
The US and USSR er Russia going to war will lead to a nuke war. What part of several hundred million dead do you not get?

crimea was part of russia until 1954... russia gave it to the ukraine, which at that time was a loya USSR state, as a show of good will, as it has been a VITAL port for 200 years for russia.

russia had treaties allowing its movement of troops in this area up until the Ukrainian revolution in the last few months.
this revolutionary government, that is not recognized by many ukrainians, unilarterally tore up a treaty with russia regarding their access to their only warm water port.


the russians notably, dont recognize this tearing up of their treaty, and put boots on the ground on ther strategic location,

just as the USA would do in panama if something happened there along the lines of what happened in the ukraine

Last I checked, the Ukrainians did absolutely nothing to threaten the base at Sevastopol (which btw is not their only warm water port by any means whatsoever), the treaty they tore up was a gas purchase, etc.

 Frazzled wrote:
LIKE WHAT?
WHY?
The Ukraine is not NATO. It was formerly in the USSR to begin with. It has nothing to do with the US.

SO WHAT?
The US and USSR er Russia going to war will lead to a nuke war. What part of several hundred million dead do you not get?

I CAN POST IN ALL CAPS TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, how about for starters NATO can let Russia know its not ok to invade others parts of nations simply because you don't like them.

I wasn't referring to a US-Russia confrontation, I was answering assertions that Russia's military was superior to NATO. Nothing wrong with a bit of academic discussion is there?

 Frazzled wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
So Poland has called for an emergency meeting of NATO for article four consultations.

Canada and Poland have the balls to actually do something beyond harsh words, hopefully they can spur the rest of NATO to do something more than giving Putin a stern talking to.

LIKE WHAT?
WHY?
The Ukraine is not NATO. It was formerly in the USSR to begin with. It has nothing to do with the US.

Also I forget who said it but there was a big post a couple pages ago about how awesome the new Russian army is and how much better than Europe it is and all that. I encourage you to go read some articles written by observers to the fighting in Georgia. The Russian army bumbled through that conflict just like it did in Chechnya. Their airforce had trouble with close air support and deliver of precision guided munitions. Communication between ground and air units was nonexistent. Russian army units were slow to react to operational changes and the general conduct of their conscript soldiers was terrible.

SO WHAT?
The US and USSR er Russia going to war will lead to a nuke war. What part of several hundred million dead do you not get?

We still have a mutual defense pact that we signed with the Ukrainians, or do treaty agreements mean nothing to you as well? I'm not saying we go to war with them, but if Putin wants to play geo-political power games then we should too. Put the missile defense shield back in Poland and Czech. Increase NATO membership - up to and including countries in Russia's sphere of influence. Kick them out of the G8 and close the Bosphorus to all Russian shipping. See how much good their port in the black sea does them when they can't go anywhere. For God's sake get the Europeans to spend a nickel on defense.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
LIKE WHAT?
WHY?
The Ukraine is not NATO. It was formerly in the USSR to begin with. It has nothing to do with the US.

SO WHAT?
The US and USSR er Russia going to war will lead to a nuke war. What part of several hundred million dead do you not get?

I CAN POST IN ALL CAPS TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pfft I WAS TYPING IN ALL CAPS BEFORE THERE WERE TYPEWRITERS!

Seriously though, how about for starters NATO can let Russia know its not ok to invade others parts of nations simply because you don't like them.

Again, how do you proposed they do that? Why?

I wasn't referring to a US-Russia confrontation, I was answering assertions that Russia's military was superior to NATO. Nothing wrong with a bit of academic discussion is there?

The US is NATO. The other countries are to add cool accents. Except for the British. They're tough, because the are fortified by Nutella and Haggis.

Closing the Bosphorous and blockading Russia really would start a war, though.

We still have a mutual defense pact that we signed with the Ukrainians, or do treaty agreements mean nothing to you as well?

Honestly, treaties mean nothing to me.

I'm not saying we go to war with them, but if Putin wants to play geo-political power games then we should too. Put the missile defense shield back in Poland and Czech. Increase NATO membership - up to and including countries in Russia's sphere of influence. Kick them out of the G8 and close the Bosphorus to all Russian shipping. See how much good their port in the black sea does them when they can't go anywhere. For God's sake get the Europeans to spend a nickel on defense.

The US is done. Let Europe do it, just count us out. The US has no compelling state interest here other than watch it on TV with brats and beer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Shrike- wrote:
Closing the Bosphorous and blockading Russia really would start a war, though.

Evidently thats a minor detail.

Frankly Europe should care less too. Unless you're Ukraine or one of the Baltics - so what? Lets assume Mother Russia sucks them all back up. Sucks to be them, but again, so what?

 Frazzled wrote:

Again, how do you proposed they do that? Why?

Real sanctions, including ones from Europe. Put the missile defense shield back in eastern Europe. Move some more naval assets to the med, maybe do some exercises in Germany or Poland. I don't like the idea that NATO is just going to take this lying down.

You say that the US has no interests in Ukraine, that true, they do not. However letting one country walk its military into another sets a dangerous precedent.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Closing the Bosphorous and blockading Russia really would start a war, though.

It would, it really would... but it would be cool...

 Frazzled wrote:


The US is done. Let Europe do it, just count us out. The US has no compelling state interest here other than watch it on TV with brats and beer.

How can you honestly be that isolationist?

I suppose getting involved in Yugoslavia was bad as well, because, hey, no interests in yugoslavia.

(NOTE: Not comparing the Crimea to Yugoslavia, just stating that the US has no interests in either state)

 Frazzled wrote:

We still have a mutual defense pact that we signed with the Ukrainians, or do treaty agreements mean nothing to you as well?

Honestly, treaties mean nothing to me.

I'm not saying we go to war with them, but if Putin wants to play geo-political power games then we should too. Put the missile defense shield back in Poland and Czech. Increase NATO membership - up to and including countries in Russia's sphere of influence. Kick them out of the G8 and close the Bosphorus to all Russian shipping. See how much good their port in the black sea does them when they can't go anywhere. For God's sake get the Europeans to spend a nickel on defense.

The US is done. Let Europe do it, just count us out. The US has no compelling state interest here other than watch it on TV with brats and beer.

In fantasy Frazzled land, treaties mean nothing. That's cool. I guess we should let anyone use chemical weapons, bomb civilian targets, use biological weapons, build as many nukes as they want, invade other countries at will, and kill weiner dogs in their millions. MILLIONS.

I'm a twelve year veteran of the United States Army - four of those years in Iraq. I have no wish to go to war with Russia, but if you welch on your promises, then we'll be seeing more war in the future, not less.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Again, how do you proposed they do that? Why?

Real sanctions, including ones from Europe. Put the missile defense shield back in eastern Europe. Move some more naval assets to the med, maybe do some exercises in Germany or Poland. I don't like the idea that NATO is just going to take this lying down.

You say that the US has no interests in Ukraine, that true, they do not. However letting one country walk its military into another sets a dangerous precedent.

What precedent? It happens all the time in history. Thats why we have this big old defense budget and all the nukes so other countries can't do that to us.

 Frazzled wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Again, how do you proposed they do that? Why?

Real sanctions, including ones from Europe. Put the missile defense shield back in eastern Europe. Move some more naval assets to the med, maybe do some exercises in Germany or Poland. I don't like the idea that NATO is just going to take this lying down.

You say that the US has no interests in Ukraine, that true, they do not. However letting one country walk its military into another sets a dangerous precedent.

What precedent? It happens all the time in history. Thats why we have this big old defense budget and all the nukes so other countries can't do that to us.

Right, and those times are miserable times for millions of people - not that I expect you to care.

Interesting read... it gots maps galore!
http://sofrep.com/33526/soviet-reunion-the-power-play-behind-putins-invasion-of-crimea/

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Could you explain to me what the Katyn massacre has to do with this?

Care to explain what yours does?

Ukraine is an independent country. I'm as surprised as you but they are. Just because there are people who speak Russian there - so what? There are English speakers all over the place. That doesn't mean the UK go around and invade any country it wants.

Thats the same argument Hitler used.



Godwin for the win!!!

Sure! Radical nationalist groups in the Ukraine have ethnically cleansed non-Ukrainians before, and in an unlikely worst-case scenario they could do it to the ethnic Russians as well.
I mentioned it to show that Ukrainian nationalists are really not nice people and that you should not mess with them. Many ethnic Russians in the Ukraine are afraid of them now that they have a say in government, and that is one of the reasons for this whole crisis.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Could you explain to me what the Katyn massacre has to do with this?

Care to explain what yours does?

Ukraine is an independent country. I'm as surprised as you but they are. Just because there are people who speak Russian there - so what? There are English speakers all over the place. That doesn't mean the UK go around and invade any country it wants.

Thats the same argument Hitler used.



Godwin for the win!!!

Sure! Radical nationalist groups in the Ukraine have ethnically cleansed non-Ukrainians before, and in an unlikely worst-case scenario they could do it to the ethnic Russians as well.
I mentioned it to show that Ukrainian nationalists are really not nice people and that you should not mess with them. Many ethnic Russians in the Ukraine are afraid of them now that they have a say in government, and that is one of the reasons for this whole crisis.

Putin couldn't give two feths about the people in Crimea. This is all geo-political power games. The "repression of ethnic Russians" is just a convenient (and extremely flimsy) excuse.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Could you explain to me what the Katyn massacre has to do with this?

Care to explain what yours does?

Ukraine is an independent country. I'm as surprised as you but they are. Just because there are people who speak Russian there - so what? There are English speakers all over the place. That doesn't mean the UK go around and invade any country it wants.

Thats the same argument Hitler used.



Godwin for the win!!!

Sure! Radical nationalist groups in the Ukraine have ethnically cleansed non-Ukrainians before, and in an unlikely worst-case scenario they could do it to the ethnic Russians as well.
I mentioned it to show that Ukrainian nationalists are really not nice people and that you should not mess with them. Many ethnic Russians in the Ukraine are afraid of them now that they have a say in government, and that is one of the reasons for this whole crisis.

Putin couldn't give two feths about the people in Crimea. This is all geo-political power games. The "repression of ethnic Russians" is just a convenient (and extremely flimsy) excuse.

It is not just an excuse by Putin (altough it is very convenient). I know many people in the Crimea personally (I lived in Sevastopol until 2008), and most of them are very worried about this new regime.
Also a law obliging Russia to protect ethnic Russians abroad was already signed in 2000, far before this crisis. Russia does care for ethnic Russians.


Also; an interesting development in the question whether the Russian involvement is legal or not. It appears that the legally still president Yanukovich has asked for the Russian support himself: http://rt.com/news/churkin-unsc-russia-ukraine-683/

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Could you explain to me what the Katyn massacre has to do with this?

Care to explain what yours does?

Ukraine is an independent country. I'm as surprised as you but they are. Just because there are people who speak Russian there - so what? There are English speakers all over the place. That doesn't mean the UK go around and invade any country it wants.

Thats the same argument Hitler used.



Godwin for the win!!!

Sure! Radical nationalist groups in the Ukraine have ethnically cleansed non-Ukrainians before, and in an unlikely worst-case scenario they could do it to the ethnic Russians as well.
I mentioned it to show that Ukrainian nationalists are really not nice people and that you should not mess with them. Many ethnic Russians in the Ukraine are afraid of them now that they have a say in government, and that is one of the reasons for this whole crisis.

Putin couldn't give two feths about the people in Crimea. This is all geo-political power games. The "repression of ethnic Russians" is just a convenient (and extremely flimsy) excuse.

It is not just an excuse by Putin (altough it is very convenient). I know many people in the Crimea personally (I lived in Sevastopol until 2008), and most of them are very worried about this new regime.
Also a law obliging Russia to protect ethnic Russians abroad was already signed in 2000, far before this crisis. Russia does care for ethnic Russians.


Also; an interesting development in the question whether the Russian involvement is legal or not. It appears that the legally still president Yanukovich has asked for the Russian support himself: http://rt.com/news/churkin-unsc-russia-ukraine-683/

So... being worried about what a new government *might* do is reason enough to invade? Let's be absolutely clear here. The new government was in power for less than a week before Russia invades. They didn't even have time to find the toilets in their new offices much less repress 30% of the Ukrainian population.