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 whembly wrote:
Interesting read... it gots maps galore!
http://sofrep.com/33526/soviet-reunion-the-power-play-behind-putins-invasion-of-crimea/

Interesting reading. I don't see this turning into a shooting war. No one wants that. Russia wants the Crimea, the US and EU want to avoid getting dragged in.

Iron Captain do you have any sources other than RT? RT is a self proclaimed English news site that brings Russian views on world news. It's a nice counterpoint to some western sites but basing all your information on it is a bit much.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
So... being worried about what a new government *might* do is reason enough to invade? Let's be absolutely clear here. The new government was in power for less than a week before Russia invades. They didn't even have time to find the toilets in their new offices much less repress 30% of the Ukrainian population.

I agree with you on that. But it is one of the reasons why ethnic Russians started protesting, and that was one of the reasons Russia invaded. The primary goal is to turn Crimea in either an independent state or a part of Russia, thusly securing this strategically important area for Russian interests, no matter how the new government in Kiev turns out.
I should also be noted that one of the first actions of the new regime was to cancel a law allowing the use of Russian as a second official language, and there are several other (perceived) anti-russian laws in the making. It goes without question that the new regime is less friendly towards ethnic Russians than the old.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Iron Captain do you have any sources other than RT? RT is a self proclaimed English news site that brings Russian views on world news. It's a nice counterpoint to some western sites but basing all your information on it is a bit much.

Yes, I also read other Russian and Ukrainian sites and I get my Western information mostly from Dutch sites, but as they are not in English, I can't really post them here. I also watch the BBC and read the CNN site sometimes, but other people already take care of posting links to there. So I post links to RT.

 easysauce wrote:
crimea was part of russia until 1954... russia gave it to the ukraine, which at that time was a loya USSR state, as a show of good will, as it has been a VITAL port for 200 years for russia.

And whilst we're at it, lets carry on the claim that the Crimea belongs to Russia because there's a Russian majority in it, or at least, let's overlook that there was a Tatar majority there, until Stalin forcibly relocated most of the Tatar people from the Crimea to die in various gulags and work camps across the Soviet empire.

There's been a 'Russian People' there instead of a Ukrainian Tatar majority for all of about 70 years. That's all. This claim to national reintegration is hogwash.

Here is a useful website....

http://www.flightradar24.com/UPS2/2d17d04

Not much happening apparently.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:


So... being worried about what a new government *might* do is reason enough to invade? Let's be absolutely clear here. The new government was in power for less than a week before Russia invades. They didn't even have time to find the toilets in their new offices much less repress 30% of the Ukrainian population.

The first thing they did was abolish the status of the Russian language.
They started repressing 30% of the Ukrainian population before they even found the toilets in their new offices.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
crimea was part of russia until 1954... russia gave it to the ukraine, which at that time was a loya USSR state, as a show of good will, as it has been a VITAL port for 200 years for russia.

And whilst we're at it, lets carry on the claim that the Crimea belongs to Russia because there's a Russian majority in it, or at least, let's overlook that there was a Tatar majority there, until Stalin forcibly relocated most of the Tatar people from the Crimea to die in various gulags and work camps across the Soviet empire.

There's been a 'Russian People' there instead of a Ukrainian Tatar majority for all of about 70 years. That's all. This claim to national reintegration is hogwash.

I agree with you but in Central Europe you will just go insane trying to figure out which "national" group belongs where. The sad truth is that possession and military might are 9/10ths of the law which is why so many people have been displaced or killed there since nationalism became the "in" thing instead of multiple groups co-existing (in somewhat frustrating fashion) under nobility that didn't care what "nation" you belonged to as long as you fulfilled your particular function and didn't cause trouble.

Nationalist and/or ethnic sentiments remain unresolved in so many areas of Central Europe that we really don't want a new wave of nationalist sentiment. The Hungarians, Romanians, and Poles, for example, have a lot of population overlap. Also, the Russians are correct that some of the protesters in Kiev belong to groups that you and I do not want to associate with. However, someone's earlier claim that 50% of the protest supporters are ultra-right wing (AKA National Socialists by a new name) is very far fetched.

 Tyran wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:


So... being worried about what a new government *might* do is reason enough to invade? Let's be absolutely clear here. The new government was in power for less than a week before Russia invades. They didn't even have time to find the toilets in their new offices much less repress 30% of the Ukrainian population.

The first thing they did was abolish the status of the Russian language.
They started repressing 30% of the Ukrainian population before they even found the toilets in their new offices.

It's now been vetoed, but the bill was one of their first actions once they assumed command.

 marielle wrote:
Here is a useful website....

http://www.flightradar24.com/UPS2/2d17d04

Not much happening apparently.

Coolest. website. EVER!!!!

The Hungarians, Romanians, and Poles, for example, have a lot of population overlap. Also, the Russians are correct that some of the protesters in Kiev belong to groups that you and I do not want to associate with. However, someone's earlier claim that 50% of the protest supporters are ultra-right wing (AKA National Socialists by a new name) is very far fetched.

Hungary and Poland have exceedingly good relations... as for other central/eastern european nations... well, the Treaty of Trianon sure was a bitch...

For you young'un here...

The relative peace in the last 20 years or so (last one is Bosian War?)... is unusual for Europe.

Jebus..Putin has literally everyone River Dancing to his tune.

He took the moral high ground on protecting ethnic Russians....any of the actual mayhem of protest occur in Crimea?
He took "Force Protection" to a whole new level....not on a playing field..league...planet....a different plane of existence. Two airfields, 50 mile stretch of highway...three Ukraine army post locked down....ferry crossing at Kerch. Just with two Brigades plus some change..
He not discussing crap with everyone out of Russia and everyone listening to the chest thumbing, accusation, and economic threats from the US/EU
He's not even responding to threats of aggression from the new Ukraine government
His troops are non hostile.seeing lots of pics and video's of unloaded AK's now.or "Weapon Green"
His troops I'm sure is more terrified of screwing it up then actual lead exchange.

Being so non passive aggressive in securing Sevastopol Naval Base landed him Crimea. OMG.its Russia version of..dare I say it..Reagan....

 whembly wrote:
For you young'un here...

The relative peace in the last 20 years or so (last one is Bosian War?)... is unusual for Europe.

Yes! it would be about time we started bashing each other's heads in again!
The next French-German war is long overdue! Come on Germany, are you really sure you don't want Alsace-Lorraine? Sure? Alsace-Lorraine is a really nice place you know, full of beer, bratwurst and alsatians. And the best thing is that it rightfully belongs to Germany! It is filled with ethnic Germans who would love to be liberated by the German Fatherland and forced to wear Lederhosen! What are you waiting for, it is just there for the taking!

Iron_Captain wrote:
It is not just an excuse by Putin (altough it is very convenient). I know many people in the Crimea personally (I lived in Sevastopol until 2008), and most of them are very worried about this new regime.
Also a law obliging Russia to protect ethnic Russians abroad was already signed in 2000, far before this crisis. Russia does care for ethnic Russians.

Was this around the same time the Russian government passed laws that made it legal to murder dissidents within Russia and abroad? Just because Russia decides something is legal now doesn't mean it's legal for them to do what they like in other people's countries and ignore boarders and the laws of other lands. Putin only respected the sovereignty of Ukraine while a Russian puppet was in power.

Reverse can be said about US/EU with the current "puppet" now in Ukraine. Was not Ywhateverhisfreakingnameisinrussiannoideahowtosayitletalonespellit elected by the people? The agreements made with the US and EU approved by him and his cabinet? Its "double standards". Why is Ukraine hollering about involving US/EU due to our agreement while they ignore Russia agreement with Sevastopol.

30 Mar is when the people in Crimea decide to go "Putin" or strong ties with "Putin" IE US territory Will the US/EU recognize the elected leaders of Crimea or ignore them?

Crimea is lost and all the US/EU can do is condemn and sanction Putin/Russia. They need to start thinking ahead and avoiding losing the eastern half of Ukraine and its heavy industries there to another version of Crimea that Putin/Russia will support

Edit

I would laugh my butt off literally if he looked dead straight into the media camera's, on a carrier and say

"Mission Accomplish"


actually the Carrier we don't need...white stallion will do..

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
crimea was part of russia until 1954... russia gave it to the ukraine, which at that time was a loya USSR state, as a show of good will, as it has been a VITAL port for 200 years for russia.

And whilst we're at it, lets carry on the claim that the Crimea belongs to Russia because there's a Russian majority in it, or at least, let's overlook that there was a Tatar majority there, until Stalin forcibly relocated most of the Tatar people from the Crimea to die in various gulags and work camps across the Soviet empire.

There's been a 'Russian People' there instead of a Ukrainian Tatar majority for all of about 70 years. That's all. This claim to national reintegration is hogwash.

I dont think you understand... it does matter what the people living there are, and what they think, despite your brash dismissal of the relevance of simple demographics.

crimea should be allowed to decide its own fate, not bow to whatever kiev tells them to do, weather you or I personally like the side they choose, they have a right to self determination.

and what Crimea has actually said, is that they want autonomy from the ukraine and closer ties to russia.

Its also interesting to note that in Russia's 2013 Foreign Policy "Concept" they condemned "responsibility to protect" and advocated sovereign democracy and different paths to development. Just as long as that sovereign democracy is Russian Sovereign Democracy and those paths to development lead to the Kremlin right?

Its very clear that high minded ideals and the rule of law and national sovereignty have gone out the window in this situation.

Whilst it is interesting to talk about the Sudetenland, and decide who is Napoleon in this situation etc

There's a much wider game going on here.

http://www.moneynews.com/Advani/Syria-Russia-Iran-dollar/2013/09/25/id/527553

Oh and...

http://rt.com/business/rosneft-china-sinopec-oil-537/
there is also a link to an FT story from June 2013, about a $270billion deal between China and Russia - making $355billion.- according to the World fact book - https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2195.html - Denmark has a GDP of $324billion - according to Wikipedia (which is always right) Denmark is the 33rd richest country in the world

Referring back to the moneynews article, China and Russia want to stop using the dollar to trade in oil (not a good thing for the dollar, especially when there are so many of them). And Syria and Iran are on board. And if China is involved, North Korea will be in. Notice a pattern?

Throw into the mix the Russian naval base in Syria, and the abortive Chinese arms deal with Turkey - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-11/01/content_17072965.htm - wierdly, after this deal collapsed riots broke out - http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/12/riots-erupt-turkey-over-corruption-scandal-20131227223554576100.html - however could that of happened? Then there is Venezuela, and I'll wager the Serbs wouldn't mind using Yuan to buy stuff, and them African countries that have an Al Queda problem will want some... I'll bet if it came to it Detroit won't mind a loan, or some infrastructure, or maybe a weapon or too, in return for paying for it's oil and gas in Yuan.

For those who are interested, the US ambassador to the UN's statements on the Ukraine Crisis

http://usun.state.gov/briefing/statements/222799.htm

We welcome you back my long last Comrade Crimea...

Well, a division just moved in....witness a birth....again....of a new/old/same nation...

Wonder what the US/EU/Ukraine going to do with the eastern half of Ukraine to keep a domino from happening..

Vulcan Intelligence Officer in God worship mode now with Putin...not a single round..

Putin is obviously one of Creed's ancestors while Obama is one of Abaddon's

 EmilCrane wrote:
So Poland has called for an emergency meeting of NATO for article four consultations.

Canada and Poland have the balls to actually do something beyond harsh words, hopefully they can spur the rest of NATO to do something more than giving Putin a stern talking to.

Hahahahahahaha.

No, but seriously, the Poles might actually be for real. They've impressed the hell out of me the last ten years or so.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Spoiler:

 whembly wrote:
For you young'un here...

The relative peace in the last 20 years or so (last one is Bosian War?)... is unusual for Europe.

Yes! it would be about time we started bashing each other's heads in again!
The next French-German war is long overdue! Come on Germany, are you really sure you don't want Alsace-Lorraine? Sure? Alsace-Lorraine is a really nice place you know, full of beer, bratwurst and alsatians. And the best thing is that it rightfully belongs to Germany! It is filled with ethnic Germans who would love to be liberated by the German Fatherland and forced to wear Lederhosen! What are you waiting for, it is just there for the taking!

Hah! Very funny! We both know Germany isn't going to do anything like that in the near future given their, now, pacifist approach. German speaking peoples in Austria, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, and South Tyrol have separate national destinies. I don't think any of them are agitating for serious changes because most of them have it pretty good. Personally, I hope nationalist/ethnic agendas lose their energy so that people stop killing and abusing each other for really stupid reasons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Putin is obviously one of Creed's ancestors while Obama is one of Abaddon's

I thought Bush would be Abaddon's as he's the one who did all the coalition gathering stuff before his invasions. That's sorta like organizing a great crusade, isn't it?

Which is the chaos god of empty threats, again?

 Breotan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Putin is obviously one of Creed's ancestors while Obama is one of Abaddon's

I thought Bush would be Abaddon's as he's the one who did all the coalition gathering stuff before his invasions. That's sorta like organizing a great crusade, isn't it?

Which is the chaos god of empty threats, again?

Gargauth I think is the one that fits the bill the closest. He is the deity of betrayal, cruelty, political corruption and powerbrokers.

No. His name is Malal.

easysauce wrote:I dont think you understand... it does matter what the people living there are, and what they think, despite your brash dismissal of the relevance of simple demographics.

crimea should be allowed to decide its own fate, not bow to whatever kiev tells them to do, weather you or I personally like the side they choose, they have a right to self determination.

and what Crimea has actually said, is that they want autonomy from the ukraine and closer ties to russia.

I seem to recall an area of Canada that wants closer ties to France...

And I seem to remember quite a large war being fought in the usa when some of the states wanted to break away...

 SilverMK2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:I dont think you understand... it does matter what the people living there are, and what they think, despite your brash dismissal of the relevance of simple demographics.

crimea should be allowed to decide its own fate, not bow to whatever kiev tells them to do, weather you or I personally like the side they choose, they have a right to self determination.

and what Crimea has actually said, is that they want autonomy from the ukraine and closer ties to russia.

I seem to recall an area of Canada that wants closer ties to France...

And I seem to remember quite a large war being fought in the usa when some of the states wanted to break away...

Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.


edit: Putin gave an interview about the situation: http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:I dont think you understand... it does matter what the people living there are, and what they think, despite your brash dismissal of the relevance of simple demographics.

crimea should be allowed to decide its own fate, not bow to whatever kiev tells them to do, weather you or I personally like the side they choose, they have a right to self determination.

and what Crimea has actually said, is that they want autonomy from the ukraine and closer ties to russia.

I seem to recall an area of Canada that wants closer ties to France...

And I seem to remember quite a large war being fought in the usa when some of the states wanted to break away...

Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

The point being that there are a lot of people in a lot of places not getting what they want. Indeed, a lot of wars have been fought over who rules who.

And where is the limit set? I think my house would be quite cool as an independent country. Should I be able to break away frim the rest of the UK?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

They should.

But surely the Russians should wait until after the Crimea has decided to become part of Russia before having troops moved in though... Just sayin'

More the point of what about all the other Eastern European countries with Russian populations? Should they all just split off and join Russia now that this is happening (or should Russia just go in and take that land?). Like's been mentioned, you can't just claim land because the people there have the same ethnic background as you, otherwise we'd be seeing borders being redrawn all over the world.