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What if the Crimean Legislation invited them in know full well the vote was going pro-Comrade Putin....

edit

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia's state-controlled natural gas giant Gazprom says it will cancel a price discount for natural gas supplies to Ukraine.

Gazprom chief Alexei Miller said Tuesday in televised remarks that Ukraine has accumulated a $1.5-billion debt for Russian gas supplies. He added at a meeting with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev that Gazprom will cancel a price rebate for Ukraine starting April 1.

Russia offered the discounted price and a $15-billion bailout to Ukraine in December following President Viktor Yanukovych's decision to ditch a pact with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia.

Ukraine and US/EU better start thinking fast or lose the other half of the country. That's diabolical thinking on dumping the western half of Ukraine on the US/EU to support financialy, logisticaly, and economicaly (SP)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

edit: Putin gave an interview about the situation: http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a referendum, The issue for most people is the occupation being carried out by Russia.

 Seaward wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
So Poland has called for an emergency meeting of NATO for article four consultations.

Canada and Poland have the balls to actually do something beyond harsh words, hopefully they can spur the rest of NATO to do something more than giving Putin a stern talking to.

Hahahahahahaha.

No, but seriously, the Poles might actually be for real. They've impressed the hell out of me the last ten years or so.

Poland is cool. They're tired of being the battleground for empires.

An article by Sir Rodric Braithwaite, the British Ambassador to Russia for 1991-1992.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukraine-crisis-no-wonder-vladimir-putin-says-crimea-is-russian-9162734.html

The gist of it seems to be that a peaceful and mutually resolution would have to involve an agreement by both sides (EU and US, and Russia) to stop interfering in Ukraine and to help prop up its economy. The West must give up on trying to recruit Ukraine into NATO. The alternatives could be far worse.

In my (entirely layman) opinion...This whole mess is the West's fault for pushing too hard for Ukraine to join NATO and EU, eroding Russia's sphere of influence even further, making it panic and lash out. Historically Russia has feared European invasion, hence all the puppet nations between Russia and Western Europe that it used as buffer states to distance itself from the West. Now many of those buffer states have been absorbed into NATO and/or the EU, and the "old enemy" (as Russia sees it) is now advancing right up to Russia's own borders. Upset the balance of power, and you risking making a country panic and do something stupid.

We'd probably have better West-East relations if NATO and the EU hadn't been agressively expanding by absorbing eastern european nations over the last two and a half decades. Those nations should ideally be neutral, and try to maintain positive relations with both sides.


This strikes me as being somewhat reminiscent of Germany between the two world wars. You have a nation that lost a "War" (WW1 / the Cold War), was severely weakened, and was excessively punished by the Victors (Versaille and the heavy sanctions and reparations; and the victorious West's enthusiastic and agressive expansion of EU and NATO into Eastern Europe). Humiliated and punished, the defeated party is angry and looking for payback.

I think this is creating conditions that could potentially spark WW3, or at best a second Cold War. Syria, Iran, North Korea, those are all factors that are contributing to this atmosphere.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I think this is creating conditions that could potentially spark WW3, or at best a second Cold War. Syria, Iran, North Korea, those are all factors that are contributing to this atmosphere.

A good analysis. I agree for the most part. However, I can't resist being a bit snarky so....

WW3? Everyone KNOWS that is going to erupt over those disputed islands between China and Japan!

Now with that out of the way, this whole thing feels like a moment from post-Napoleanic War Greta Power diplomacy. We better get the Concert of Europe back together on this one. Where's Bismarck when you need him?

Watch what you post please folk , images with language we don't allow on the site are not suitable for here.
Thanks

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

edit: Putin gave an interview about the situation: http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a referendum, The issue for most people is the occupation being carried out by Russia.

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

Now that Russwian troops are there will this be up to the usual gulag standard of electoral voting from USSR/Russian elections? I can see the ballot now

Vote for Crimea joining Mother Russia
1) Yes
2) Not no

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

edit: Putin gave an interview about the situation: http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a referendum, The issue for most people is the occupation being carried out by Russia.

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

Of course, because the only way to ensure that democracy truly works is by breaking your own treaties, international law and invading independent countries in undeclared acts of war... Everybody knows that!

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

edit: Putin gave an interview about the situation: http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a referendum, The issue for most people is the occupation being carried out by Russia.

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

So why not ask a neutral third party to intervene? It's rather unsuitable for a party that stands to gain from one of the possible outcomes of the referrendum to "guarantee the safety" of said referendum.

Already been stated in the media that Crimea legislation does not recognize the new government.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention an area of the UK that wants to hold a referendum on independence, but what is the relevance of this?
The people of Crimea should be allowed to determine their own future. They should be allowed to have their referendum and become independent or part of Russia if they want to.

edit: Putin gave an interview about the situation: http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a referendum, The issue for most people is the occupation being carried out by Russia.

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

So why not ask a neutral third party to intervene? It's rather unsuitable for a party that stands to gain from one of the possible outcomes of the referrendum to "guarantee the safety" of said referendum.

Evidently Russia er Crimea doesn't need all that tedious voting.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/we-control-everything-crimea-breaks-ties-with-ukraine/article17266761/

Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no defense budget.

So the US version would be:

Texas doesn't like Obama and always talks about leaving the union.

Mexico sends their army and surrounds all federal bases.

Mexican president says "it's to protect all our latino nationals there and to let Texas vote to leave the US".

And everything is Kosher and on the up-and-up?

 Frazzled wrote:


Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no nuclear weapons, because the US took them away.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, fixed.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no nuclear weapons, because the US took them away.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, fixed.

When did the US take Europe's nukes? was there a store sale I missed?

 Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no nuclear weapons, because the US took them away.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, fixed.

When did the US take Europe's nukes? was there a store sale I missed?

Didn't you sign that one thingie with Ukraine in return for them returning their nukes to Russia?

EDIT: Just saying, if there's one lesson Iran, North Korea and other states that want to keep others out will learn from this, it's that they've been right all along: might makes right.

 Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no nuclear weapons, because the US took them away.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, fixed.

When did the US take Europe's nukes? was there a store sale I missed?

Hahaha. That edit is so dumb. Hahaha.

Europe, America, and The Russians, will never disarm their nuclear weapons.

 Frazzled wrote:
Now that Russwian troops are there will this be up to the usual gulag standard of electoral voting from USSR/Russian elections? I can see the ballot now

Vote for Crimea joining Mother Russia
1) Yes
2) Not no

lol that was funny, but really, we cannot just blanket over the fact that russia has been asked to come into crimea (also for those interested, I did research the unmarked uniforms on the people present in crimea, they are part of the crimean local forces (yes lots of them are russian speakers/ethnic russians, because lots and lots of crimeans are russian)

global research (canadian site, unbiased and factual) http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554 has a pretty good synopsis of the white washing that has been going on regarding western support for less the honorable factions within the ukrainian revolutionary groups.

crimea has been russian for over 200 years...

they actually do want independence, and have wanted it for a long time... they have voted time and time again against joining the EU, and were forced to join the ukraine in the first place.

they were already an autonomous state and have already tried to strengthen ties to russia before all this happened...

we cannot just look at this with our "west is best" goggles on... both sides have LEGITIMATE support from the population, and the country is genuinely divided in that the vast majority of the crimeans really do want to split off and do their own thing, or join russia.

just because some violent revolution supported by the west over through the duly elected leader (who was elected by the east supporting areas) doesnt mean the eastern ukrainians have to recognize it as legitimate.

all the "but russia is bad mkay" talk conveniently ignores the neo nazi bedfellows that have been made on the wests side... it is not a trivial % of the revolution as some would like to white wash it.

"Composition of the Coalition Government

We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition, formally led by the Fatherland party.

The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police, Justice and National Security."



"Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU). (Рада національної безпеки і оборони України), a key position which overseas the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, National Security and Intelligence. The RNBOU is central decision-making body. While it is formally headed by the president, it is run by the Secretariat with a staff of 180 people including defense, intelligence and national security experts.

Parubiy was one of the main leaders behind the Orange Revolution in 2004. His organization was funded by the West. He is referred to by the Western media as the “kommandant” of the EuroMaidan movement. Andriy Parubiy together with party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is a follower of Ukrainian Nazi Stepan Bandera, who collaborated in the mass murderer of Jews and Poles during World War II. "

the people above are marching to celebrate mass murder, during the orange revolution.. one of the central leaders of this is Andriy Parubiy, who is now the revolutionary appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee a key position for defence, armed forces, law enforcement, national security and intelligence. Tell me, does that sounds like the kind of person you want to support unequivocally?

strange bed fellows indeed, yet western media totally ignores how seriously ingrained this new ultra right neo nazi party really is in this revolution.


there will never be a solution so long as the western "revolutionaries" keep telling the east to go suck it and do as they say... you cannot just oust an elected leader and then start telling the regions that elected that leader what to do, and call their cries for independence "illegitimate" when the legitimacy of your own revolution hasnt been ratified by them. if "pro west" ukrain gets to do whatever it wants, then so does "pro east" ukraine

 d-usa wrote:
So the US version would be:

Texas doesn't like Obama and always talks about leaving the union.

Mexico sends their army and surrounds all federal bases.

Mexican president says "it's to protect all our latino nationals there and to let Texas vote to leave the US".

And everything is Kosher and on the up-and-up?

Exactly....

The devil in me wants to see Mexico try that tho. o.O

After some minor skirmishes I'm sure the rest of Mexico will be happy to join New Texas.

That agreement was made before the "new" government took over. If we as in the US/EU honor that agreement then they, being the new government, most honor its agreement with Russia.
Part of the Russian agreement was inform Ukraine of troops movements to and from Sevastopol Since the government went soup sandwich what started off as securing and ensuring a logistical lifeline in a 50 mile land route pretty much escalated into Crimea pretty much announcing breaking ties to Ukraine and Putin moving maybe two Light Infantry division in

Edit

Have mercy on me Mr. Putin I misspelled your name wrong....

Spelled Rutin
Actually I am rooting for him. If he pulls this off with at least Crimea going to him without firing a shot....itsits....Godly with lots of white Stalliones

 Jihadin wrote:
What if the Crimean Legislation invited them in know full well the vote was going pro-Comrade Putin....

edit

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia's state-controlled natural gas giant Gazprom says it will cancel a price discount for natural gas supplies to Ukraine.

Gazprom chief Alexei Miller said Tuesday in televised remarks that Ukraine has accumulated a $1.5-billion debt for Russian gas supplies. He added at a meeting with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev that Gazprom will cancel a price rebate for Ukraine starting April 1.

Russia offered the discounted price and a $15-billion bailout to Ukraine in December following President Viktor Yanukovych's decision to ditch a pact with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia.

Ukraine and US/EU better start thinking fast or lose the other half of the country. That's diabolical thinking on dumping the western half of Ukraine on the US/EU to support financialy, logisticaly, and economicaly (SP)

Its even more diabolical when you realize that its a win/win for Russia. They are basically going to take the most economically viable and productive portions of the country for themselves, and then dump the remainder on our doorstep with no means to support itself, etc. and then on top of that, Ukraine will still be saddled with ALL of the debt it owes Russia, except it will have even less means to pay it back... That means the west will have to keep Ukraine on life support indefinitely, or else it will default, collapse economically (and then politically) and Russia will use that as pretext to take the rest of the country for itself.

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

Uh huh, and you know this how? Answer: You don't. Now, if Kiev actually somehow attempted to prevent Crimea from holding the referendum and/or seceding, it would be a different story entirely. Kiev made no such moves whatsoever.

Didn't you sign that one thingie with Ukraine in return for them returning their nukes to Russia?

That was the Russians taking Ukraines nukes away, the US AND THE UK signed it as guarantors of Ukrainian sovereignty so that Ukraine would still have a strategic deterrent to future Russian aggression in the form of (nuclear armed) allies. In other words, it was "Ukraine cedes control of Russias nuclear weapons within Ukrainian borders to Russia, with the understanding that the United States and the United Kingdom guarantee Ukrainian national security."

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no nuclear weapons, because the US took them away.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, fixed.

When did the US take Europe's nukes? was there a store sale I missed?

Didn't you sign that one thingie with Ukraine in return for them returning their nukes to Russia?

EDIT: Just saying, if there's one lesson Iran, North Korea and other states that want to keep others out will learn from this, it's that they've been right all along: might makes right.

That doesn't equate with our taking them. The RUssians would have taken them anyway.

Think at the time when nukes were involve was everyone was concern on positive control of them. Everyone thinking at that time to if Russia was going to come back it would announce itself by massive armed troop movements with lots of lead and HE heading westward.

Best word I can describe so far being used is passive intimidation by Russian forces

 Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Note to Europe: this is what freedom looks like when you have no nuclear weapons, because the US took them away.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, fixed.

When did the US take Europe's nukes? was there a store sale I missed?

Didn't you sign that one thingie with Ukraine in return for them returning their nukes to Russia?

EDIT: Just saying, if there's one lesson Iran, North Korea and other states that want to keep others out will learn from this, it's that they've been right all along: might makes right.

That doesn't equate with our taking them. The RUssians would have taken them anyway.

The US and the UK did, however, sign the treaty. Treaties are meant to be honoured, no?

When convenient.

 easysauce wrote:

Spoiler:

 Frazzled wrote:
Now that Russwian troops are there will this be up to the usual gulag standard of electoral voting from USSR/Russian elections? I can see the ballot now

Vote for Crimea joining Mother Russia
1) Yes
2) Not no

lol that was funny, but really, we cannot just blanket over the fact that russia has been asked to come into crimea (also for those interested, I did research the unmarked uniforms on the people present in crimea, they are part of the crimean local forces (yes lots of them are russian speakers/ethnic russians, because lots and lots of crimeans are russian)

global research (canadian site, unbiased and factual) http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554 has a pretty good synopsis of the white washing that has been going on regarding western support for less the honorable factions within the ukrainian revolutionary groups.

crimea has been russian for over 200 years...

they actually do want independence, and have wanted it for a long time... they have voted time and time again against joining the EU, and were forced to join the ukraine in the first place.

they were already an autonomous state and have already tried to strengthen ties to russia before all this happened...

we cannot just look at this with our "west is best" goggles on... both sides have LEGITIMATE support from the population, and the country is genuinely divided in that the vast majority of the crimeans really do want to split off and do their own thing, or join russia.

just because some violent revolution supported by the west over through the duly elected leader (who was elected by the east supporting areas) doesnt mean the eastern ukrainians have to recognize it as legitimate.

all the "but russia is bad mkay" talk conveniently ignores the neo nazi bedfellows that have been made on the wests side... it is not a trivial % of the revolution as some would like to white wash it.

"Composition of the Coalition Government

We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition, formally led by the Fatherland party.

The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police, Justice and National Security."



"Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU). (Рада національної безпеки і оборони України), a key position which overseas the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, National Security and Intelligence. The RNBOU is central decision-making body. While it is formally headed by the president, it is run by the Secretariat with a staff of 180 people including defense, intelligence and national security experts.

Parubiy was one of the main leaders behind the Orange Revolution in 2004. His organization was funded by the West. He is referred to by the Western media as the “kommandant” of the EuroMaidan movement. Andriy Parubiy together with party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is a follower of Ukrainian Nazi Stepan Bandera, who collaborated in the mass murderer of Jews and Poles during World War II. "

the people above are marching to celebrate mass murder, during the orange revolution.. one of the central leaders of this is Andriy Parubiy, who is now the revolutionary appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee a key position for defence, armed forces, law enforcement, national security and intelligence. Tell me, does that sounds like the kind of person you want to support unequivocally?

strange bed fellows indeed, yet western media totally ignores how seriously ingrained this new ultra right neo nazi party really is in this revolution.


there will never be a solution so long as the western "revolutionaries" keep telling the east to go suck it and do as they say... you cannot just oust an elected leader and then start telling the regions that elected that leader what to do, and call their cries for independence "illegitimate" when the legitimacy of your own revolution hasnt been ratified by them. if "pro west" ukrain gets to do whatever it wants, then so does "pro east" ukraine

easy... I wouldn't buy into the whole "neo-nazi" thing here... seems like it's propaganda.

There's a large jewish population in Ukraine as well:
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/163972/jews-in-maidan

A great number of protest organizers across Ukraine are Jewish intellectuals: artists, teachers, and academics among others, of varying ages. On Monday, Vadym Rabynovych, the president of the Ukrainian Jewish Congress and owner of the TV channel Jewish News 1, issued a statement characterizing the protesters’ relationship to the Jewish community as “tolerant and peaceful” and suggesting that claims to the contrary are merely provocations. Many prominent Jews have come out in support of the Maidan movement, among them the oligarch Victor Pinchuk, the journalist Vitaly Portnikov, and the artist Alexander Roitburd. My friend and colleague Anatoliy Kerzhner wrote to me of the pointed inclusion of Jewish events on the Maidan platform: Rabbi Hillel Cohen of one of the city’s Orthodox synagogues offered a prayer for peace, the Pushkin Klezmer Band performed Yiddish songs, and scholars lectured about Ukrainian Jewish history.

Some Ukrainian-born Jews who have emigrated to Israel and served in its army have returned to Kiev in order to help the cause by putting their military experience into practice. “Either ethnicity is not important to this struggle yet, or it is not important in general,” my friend Yury Yakubov, a 30-year-old designer from Kharkiv, told me. Moreover, a number of Ukrainian immigrants in Israel have voiced their support of the Maidan. A 10-minute YouTube video shows a string of candid speeches in Russian and Ukrainian by Ukrainian-Israelis in support of Ukraine’s ability to join the European Union as an independent nation. Another video pairs a Ukrainian rap song celebrating independence with images of Ukrainian Israelis holding signs in support of the Maidan.

 Frazzled wrote:
When convenient.

States (nations) rarely like doing other things that risk their security, when they sign a bill it is more for publicity.

Like the Nuclear disarmament and also why we have increased weapons technology for missiles in the united states, because that would threaten the Russians, and the russians would then build more nuclear missiles to balance that threat out.

Though that is the realist version of seeing the world.

Security is something extremely important to these countries. They only honor them if the other's security is decreased and they become less of a threat.

Russian forces though deployed out totally passive. No blood loss. No loss of life. Its military operation was conducted by two brigades at most. We have a legal rep from Crimea saying they do not recognize the "new" government in Kiev. People decide on 30 Mar, Putin legal rep saying protection of ethnic Russians is reason for troop deployment there, Kerch ferry crossing is seized. Two additional Russian light division is moved in Russia took the moral high ground in UN. US/EU is thinking in the now. Putin thinking 1-20 years down the road.

The New Ukraine government is responding by calling up its reserves and prepping military units for a possible confrontation with Russian unit. No one else, US/EU, have even consider putting boots on ground.

Pretty much we're looking like bad guys and Putin coming out golden looking like a actual Peace Keeper

Why are we not at war yet?