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 Frazzled wrote:
When convenient.

The danger here is that if we don't do anything, what happens to our other treaties?

Taiwan?

NATO?

Doesn't out word mean anything?

Whembly... it most certainly is NOT propaganda... confirmed leaders of the neo nazi movement are 100% factually now appointed to the positions I listed, this can be confirmed as fact quite easily.

just because there are lots of jews in the ukraine doesnt mean there are no neo nazis... in fact it gives the nazis someone to hate/scapgoat to swell their ranks.

feel free to fact check, but its easy enough to confirm the reality that people like:

Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU

Oleh Makhnitsky of the Svoboda party to the position of prosecutor-general of Ukraine.

Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee

and it goes on and on, but for berevities sake i will stop there, as I honestly dont expect many westerners to see through the wests propaganda any more then I expect the easterners to see through the eastern propaganda.

 easysauce wrote:
Whembly... it most certainly is NOT propaganda... confirmed leaders of the neo nazi movement are 100% factually now appointed to the positions I listed, this can be confirmed as fact quite easily.

just because there are lots of jews in the ukraine doesnt mean there are no neo nazis... in fact it gives the nazis someone to hate/scapgoat to swell their ranks.

feel free to fact check, but its easy enough to confirm the reality that people like:

Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU

Oleh Makhnitsky of the Svoboda party to the position of prosecutor-general of Ukraine.

Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee

and it goes on and on, but for berevities sake i will stop there, as I honestly dont expect many westerners to see through the wests propaganda any more then I expect the easterners to see through the eastern propaganda.

Okay... okay!

Are we expecting something out of Mein Kampf with these parties?

o.O

 whembly wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Whembly... it most certainly is NOT propaganda... confirmed leaders of the neo nazi movement are 100% factually now appointed to the positions I listed, this can be confirmed as fact quite easily.

just because there are lots of jews in the ukraine doesnt mean there are no neo nazis... in fact it gives the nazis someone to hate/scapgoat to swell their ranks.

feel free to fact check, but its easy enough to confirm the reality that people like:

Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU

Oleh Makhnitsky of the Svoboda party to the position of prosecutor-general of Ukraine.

Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee

and it goes on and on, but for berevities sake i will stop there, as I honestly dont expect many westerners to see through the wests propaganda any more then I expect the easterners to see through the eastern propaganda.

Okay... okay!

Are we expecting something out of Mein Kampf with these parties?

o.O

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me. There's some rather unsavory types involved, to say the least.

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
When convenient.

The danger here is that if we don't do anything, what happens to our other treaties?

Taiwan?

NATO?

Doesn't out word mean anything?

Hopefully not. It would be awesome if they all said we need to leave in the next three years. But we need Korea to make us leave too.
Then, as the immortal bard once said: Free at last free at last God Almighty we are free at last.

I mean, just look at kiev during the inital protest months ago...


notice all that blue+yellow flagging?

thats the neo nazi party... its far more widespread then you are saying it is...



and while I dont expect it to lead to the holocaust part two just yet,

there are some supremely screwed up people (read neo nazis) in some very powerfull positions in the military, law enforcement, and judicial branches of ukraine now, it certainly doesnt bode well for their future actions.

Putin/Russia will smoke the US. He seal of the strait with Turkey protecting the Black Sea Fleet. We've limited land exposure of Russia shoreline in the Pacific. He can accept mass loss of life in defending the Motherland first on US aggression to really get the people behind him while the US mentality cannot accept it. Besides he go after the Alaskan oil fields and pipeline damaging them and accepting the loss of aircrafts and crew to accomplish that after wards. He shut off the flow of natural gas and oil to everything west to really put Western and eastern Europe in a bind....Well it be what I would do in his shoe's..I avoid the Alaska King crab fleet. They do not want to interrupt the next season of "Dangerous Catch"....oh and the gold fields to..I've a feeling he like's the kid trying to hit 1K ounce of gold

 easysauce wrote:
I mean, just look at kiev during the inital protest months ago...


notice all that blue+yellow flagging?

thats the neo nazi party... its far more widespread then you are saying it is...



and while I dont expect it to lead to the holocaust part two just yet,

there are some supremely screwed up people (read neo nazis) in some very powerfull positions in the military, law enforcement, and judicial branches of ukraine now, it certainly doesnt bode well for their future actions.

So... if you're a protester waving the Ukrainian flag or the EU flag, you're suddenly a neo-nazi?

Guilty by association?

 Jihadin wrote:
Guilty by association?

Well if they were all waving Lone Star Flags I'd say so.

 Jihadin wrote:
Putin/Russia will smoke the US. He seal of the strait with Turkey protecting the Black Sea Fleet. We've limited land exposure of Russia shoreline in the Pacific. He can accept mass loss of life in defending the Motherland first on US aggression to really get the people behind him while the US mentality cannot accept it. Besides he go after the Alaskan oil fields and pipeline damaging them and accepting the loss of aircrafts and crew to accomplish that after wards. He shut off the flow of natural gas and oil to everything west to really put Western and eastern Europe in a bind....Well it be what I would do in his shoe's..I avoid the Alaska King crab fleet. They do not want to interrupt the next season of "Dangerous Catch"....oh and the gold fields to..I've a feeling he like's the kid trying to hit 1K ounce of gold

Shadow a tanker or container ship with a fairly quite sub. Torp one or two then say major shipping lanes into american ports are mined. drop a few mine like objects and watch as markets crash and governments reel as ships stay in port.

Feth up the Panama canal while he's at it.

Sponsor a few terrorist atrocities at airports or on airlines.

Paralizes a nation whilst he is pretty much safe from military intervention barring a politically suicidal full invasion.

Frazzled wrote:Now that Russwian troops are there will this be up to the usual gulag standard of electoral voting from USSR/Russian elections? I can see the ballot now

Vote for Crimea joining Mother Russia
1) Yes
2) Not no

Please stop the ignorance. This is not the Soviet Union anymore. You are only making a fool of yourself.

Obviously the ballot would like:
Should the glorious nation of Crimea free itself from the fascists in Kiev and re-join the sacred Motherland?
1) Yes, death to fascist scum!
2) Yes, all hail our Soviet Motherland!
3) Yes, and I am a dirty fascist spy and traitor to the glorious Motherland and I deserve to rot in the mines of Vorkuta for all eternity.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a referendum, The issue for most people is the occupation being carried out by Russia.

What do you have against Russia?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

So why not ask a neutral third party to intervene? It's rather unsuitable for a party that stands to gain from one of the possible outcomes of the referrendum to "guarantee the safety" of said referendum.

What third party did you have in mind? I am sure the Kurds, Tibetans and all those other people wanting independence would love to know.

d-usa wrote:So the US version would be:

Texas doesn't like Obama and always talks about leaving the union.

Mexico sends their army and surrounds all federal bases.

Mexican president says "it's to protect all our latino nationals there and to let Texas vote to leave the US".

And everything is Kosher and on the up-and-up?

No it would be:

A discontented group of people supported by radical nationalist groups (let's say the Klu Klux Klan etc.) disposes Obama and sets up a new government.
President Obama and the local government in Texas ask Mexico to send troops to Texas in order to let Texas hold a referendum on independence in peace without fear of being threatened by the new anti-latino regime in Washington.
Mexico sends their army and surrounds all federal bases.
Mexican president says "it's to protect all our latino nationals there and to let Texas vote to leave the US".
Russia and China become outraged and start threatening with sanctions unless the Mexican soldiers withdraw.

The situation is really not as black and white as Western governments and media like to paint it.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Those soldiers are necessary for that referendum to happen. The Ukrainian authorities would've never allowed Crimea to secede. Now that Crimea is protected by Russian soldiers, the referendum about independence is possible and can happen without fear of disturbances and radical groups.

Uh huh, and you know this how? Answer: You don't. Now, if Kiev actually somehow attempted to prevent Crimea from holding the referendum and/or seceding, it would be a different story entirely. Kiev made no such moves whatsoever.

I know this because I actually know what parties are involved here. Kiev has prevented Crimean independence in the past, and the new Ukrainian government has been very clear that they will not allow Crimea to secede under any circumstances. They said this loud and clear, you should have known that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
I mean, just look at kiev during the inital protest months ago...


notice all that blue+yellow flagging?

thats the neo nazi party... its far more widespread then you are saying it is...



and while I dont expect it to lead to the holocaust part two just yet,

there are some supremely screwed up people (read neo nazis) in some very powerfull positions in the military, law enforcement, and judicial branches of ukraine now, it certainly doesnt bode well for their future actions.

So... if you're a protester waving the Ukrainian flag or the EU flag, you're suddenly a neo-nazi?

That is nonsense yes, not everyone with a Ukrainian flag is neo-nazi and those with European flags absolutely aren't. Those with red flags are supporters of UDAR, the party of Vitaly Klitschko. The Red-Black flags could be anarchists. The neo-nazis are the ones with blue flags with a yellow hand on it.

So heres the primary issue with that scenario...

The military (in the US at least, can't say the same about Ukraine because I don't know) is sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. So, in that scenario you outlined, the AMERICAN military would step in to protect against the KKK and fight against their coup, and if they didn't, then thats an indicator that the military is either divided on the issue or (for whatever reason) in agreement with the KKK. In that situation, Mexico has no business (despite what the elected government may say) stepping into the mix, because we are our own guarantors of security and it is an internal matter (I.E. - a civil war), not one that should involve any of our neighbors.

Lets shift your scenario a bit. Say North Korea saw massive protests, the military sat idly by, and Kim Jong Un's government is deposed and a new pro-unification government is installed. By your reasoning, the Chinese and/or South Korean government should send troops into North Korea, and help Kim Jong Un's technically legitimate (though not necessarily by choice) government return to power...

suure,

total nonsense, pay no attention to the people with SS symbols and swastika tattoos...

Svoboda is not a nazi party, they just want to hug everyone and give them kittens!


if you had any brains, you would know that THIS is the ukraine flag (in the picture i mentioned)

and this is the flag of the neo nazi party (renamed Svoboda) chrikey thats a long line of people supporting neo-nazism!

which is very prolific in the protest pictures... I mentioned...

also notice, that the public supporters of the neo nazi party, waving its flag, are not being run out of town by the people next to them... so while not being neo-nazi themselves, they sure are not complaining about who they are allying with.

seriously, your ability to totally ignore what is right in front of you is astounding.

"In October 2012, Svoboda joined a formal coalition with the centre-right Batkivshchyna and UDAR parties to form the parliament's collective opposition, now a majority."

UDAR isnt exactly a shining example either, they are in a coalition with the openly neo nazi party of svoboda

 easysauce wrote:


which is very prolific in the protest pictures... I mentioned...

also notice, that the public supporters of the neo nazi party, waving its flag, are not being run out of town by the people next to them... so while not being neo-nazi themselves, they sure are not complaining about who they are allying with.

seriously, your ability to totally ignore what is right in front of you is astounding.

You described them as:

 easysauce wrote:

notice all that blue+yellow flagging?

Guess what flag, other than the one you meant, is blue and yellow?

Chaos. Don't go down that road.
1. Is it an unlawful order?
2. Is it a lawful order?
3. Deploying combat troops on home turf is a no no for possible combat operations
4. The status "American" goes out the window when one starts shooting at troops because now that individual is a "threat"
5. What's the chances of it actually occurring? Think deep and broad on it and not shallow over it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
So heres the primary issue with that scenario...

The military (in the US at least, can't say the same about Ukraine because I don't know) is sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. So, in that scenario you outlined, the AMERICAN military would step in to protect against the KKK and fight against their coup, and if they didn't, then thats an indicator that the military is either divided on the issue or (for whatever reason) in agreement with the KKK. In that situation, Mexico has no business (despite what the elected government may say) stepping into the mix, because we are our own guarantors of security and it is an internal matter (I.E. - a civil war), not one that should involve any of our neighbors.

Legally, it shouldn't. But legally, the US was also not allowed to attack Libya. We both know that major world powers only stick to international laws as long as those laws suit them. That is just the way it is and we can't change it, so it is little use complaining about it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Lets shift your scenario a bit. Say North Korea saw massive protests, the military sat idly by, and Kim Jong Un's government is deposed and a new pro-unification government is installed. By your reasoning, the Chinese and/or South Korean government should send troops into North Korea, and help Kim Jong Un's technically legitimate (though not necessarily by choice) government return to power...

That would be a completely different scenario that has nothing to do with the scenario outlined in my post or the one in the Ukraine as in your scenario there are no radical groups nor an ethnic minority that wants to become independent, and you add an external power that wants to restore a deposed former dictator, which was not the case in both aforementioned scenarios.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Guess what flag, other than the one you meant, is blue and yellow?

The Swedish one!

IKEA!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:



Guess what flag, other than the one you meant, is blue and yellow?

I guess its too much to presume that when I am talking about neo nazis, I would be talking about their yellow+blue flag...

my bad for expecting Dakka OT to do the spoon feeding themselves I guess.

the point still stands,

the neo naxi party has plenty of flags there, so does UDAR, they are both in a coalition, and no one waving a Ukrainian flag is chasing away anyone with a neo nazi flag.

all those yellow blue hand flags are neo naz and the red white ones from udar i (udar and svoboda are in a coalition, a neo nazi coalition if you will) and no one is asking them to leave, so that is tacit acceptance at least.

 easysauce wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:



Guess what flag, other than the one you meant, is blue and yellow?

I guess its too much to presume that when I am talking about neo nazis, I would be talking about their yellow+blue flag...

my bad for expecting Dakka OT to do the spoon feeding themselves I guess.

the point still stands,

the neo naxi party has plenty of flags there, so does UDAR, they are both in a coalition, and no one waving a Ukrainian flag is chasing away anyone with a neo nazi flag.

all those yellow blue hand flags and red white ones from udar are neo nazi (udar and svoboda are in a coalition) and no one is asking them to leave, so that is tacit acceptance at least.

If you're talking about an image with several different blue and yellow flags, saying that all the yellow and blue flags are being waved by nazis is the height of sloppyness.

so now that you have had your say about my lack of professional quality reporting over my non paid position of "guy who has to spoon feed what flag is what to dakka"


what are the actual thoughts on the large # of neo nazi flags, as well as neo nazi coalition members in UDAR(red flags), and the fact that no one of any flag is publicly denouncing their involvement in the revolution, nor their being appointed to high ranking positions.

how many people have to wave the equivalent of swastika flags in a revolution before you go "hmmmmm, those guys waving swasticas might be an issue, maybe dont appoint them to high levels of government?"

 d-usa wrote:
IKEA!

That's what I thought.

Can you imagine the political impact if Putin points that out on media. "Hey Obama...Kerry....those are um..hate to break it to you.Those are Neo Nazis your supporting as new government and also the 1 billion dollar funding you just authorized to assist them.."

I rather go kick a cow pile on a warm hot humid day then get slap with that

 easysauce wrote:
so now that you have had your say about my lack of professional quality reporting over my non paid position of "guy who has to spoon feed what flag is what to dakka"


what are the actual thoughts on the large # of neo nazi flags, as well as neo nazi coalition members in UDAR(red flags), and the fact that no one of any flag is publicly denouncing their involvement in the revolution, nor their being appointed to high ranking positions.

how many people have to wave the equivalent of swastika flags in a revolution before you go "hmmmmm, those guys waving swasticas might be an issue, maybe dont appoint them to high levels of government?"

Well, the issue here is that you're saying the blue and yellow flags... the predominant flags in that picture are these:




Notice the colors?

The flag you are referring to with the 3 fingered hand or whatever? There are only FOUR of them in that entire photo (that I can see), when you're saying "notice all the blue and yellow flagging" and 4 or 5 out of the 2 dozen plus (I stopped counting) blue and yellow flags are that flag... well, what the hell did you expect the response to be?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
so now that you have had your say about my lack of professional quality reporting over my non paid position of "guy who has to spoon feed what flag is what to dakka"


what are the actual thoughts on the large # of neo nazi flags, as well as neo nazi coalition members in UDAR(red flags), and the fact that no one of any flag is publicly denouncing their involvement in the revolution, nor their being appointed to high ranking positions.

how many people have to wave the equivalent of swastika flags in a revolution before you go "hmmmmm, those guys waving swasticas might be an issue, maybe dont appoint them to high levels of government?"

The flag you are referring to with the 3 fingered hand or whatever? There are only FOUR of them in that entire photo (that I can see), when you're saying "notice all the blue and yellow flagging" and 4 or 5 out of the 2 dozen plus (I stopped counting) blue and yellow flags are that flag... well, what the hell did you expect the response to be?

There is 5 of them, actually.
And you didn't really answer his question, you are just making a point out of nothing, you are evading the question.
Also, from the second picture he posted you can really see there are a lot of neo-nazis involved.

I was actually following along with what Easysauce was going with....yellow clench fist should have been clarified much better Easy. I got your back...way back. like um way way way back nice rifle I have recently acquired

 Jihadin wrote:
Can you imagine the political impact if Putin points that out on media. "Hey Obama...Kerry....those are um..hate to break it to you.Those are Neo Nazis your supporting as new government and also the 1 billion dollar funding you just authorized to assist them.."

I rather go kick a cow pile on a warm hot humid day then get slap with that

Didn't they already do that?

 Jihadin wrote:
I was actually following along with what Easysauce was going with....yellow clench fist should have been clarified much better Easy. I got your back...way back. like um way way way back nice rifle I have recently acquired

Not a clenched fist! A right hand with the thumb touching the little finger and the three remaining fingers pointed upwards! You need to clarify much better.

Its not being hammered at all by Fox so no

 Jihadin wrote:
Can you imagine the political impact if Putin points that out on media. "Hey Obama...Kerry....those are um..hate to break it to you.Those are Neo Nazis your supporting as new government and also the 1 billion dollar funding you just authorized to assist them.."

I rather go kick a cow pile on a warm hot humid day then get slap with that

yeah, I am not sure the blow back would be very bad, apparently a lot of Dakka is OK with neo nazi involvement in this revolution,and if thats an indicator of general US sentiment... I am truely afraid of what kind of evils people will ignore.

, at least 20% of flags in this picture have the yellow+blue fist on their flag, either as the neo-natzi party flag, or the ukraine flag with the neo-nazi fist on top of it. There plenty more are the co aligned UDAR in red, bringing the % up.

one or two flags is a fringe group... but when its a very visable, and identifiable part of the people there, and when prominent neo-nazi party leaders get such important appointations, it means something is WRONG.

Seriously, how many neo-nazis waving neo-swastikas does it take before some people go "hmmmm, maybe these guys waving swastikas are not the best people to be appointed to positions of power via violent revolution"

would you be happily protesting along side people waving swastikas? I know I would not.




if you can only count 5 hands on flags in this picture... you are seriously missing things... there are plenty, and while I cannot enhance the zoom, lots of the "ukrainian" flags have the fist super imposed on it, as well as the UDAR red flags being in a coalition with the neo nazis as wel..