Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**reds8n**

some bad language.

**Iron_Captain**

This is very interesting...

**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/05/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- Western powers increased pressure on Russia Wednesday to talk to the new government in Kiev, in a bid to de-escalate tensions over Russia's military intervention in Ukraine's Crimea region.

The diplomatic maneuvers come as world leaders meet in Paris for talks that were intended to focus on Lebanon. Instead, Ukraine will likely dominate the agenda.

Russian forces remain in effective control of Crimea, a Black Sea peninsula where Russia has a huge naval base, in a tense standoff with Ukrainian forces loyal to the new interim government in Kiev.

Russia has been warned that possible sanctions will be on the agenda when EU leaders meet Thursday if no progress is made in ending the high-stakes showdown.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov are due to have talks.

But UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said what happens at the EU meeting on sanctions "will be partly determined by Russia's willingness to sit down with Ukraine."

If no progress can be made on de-escalating the situation, then there will be "costs and consequences," he said.

"It will be a test this afternoon of whether Russia is prepared to sit down with Ukraine. And we will strongly recommend that they do so."

Hague's comments came after he, Kerry and Ukrainian Foreign Minister Andrii Deshchytsia discussed their next steps ahead of Lavrov's expected arrival in the French capital.

Kerry reminded Moscow that it had, like Washington and London, signed an agreement in 1994 when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons "to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine."

This means there are "very clear legal obligations that are at risk in this," he said.

The Kremlin earlier threatened to hit back if the European Union does levy sanctions against Russia.

Russian lawmakers are drafting a law that will allow Russia to confiscate assets belonging to U.S. and European companies if it faces sanctions.

Andrei Klishas, a senior lawmaker in the upper house, said the bill "would offer the president and government opportunities to defend our sovereignty from threats," state news agency RIA Novosti reported.

The tit-for-tat threats are the latest in a war of words over Russia's military intervention in Ukraine's southern Crimea region.

On Tuesday, a defiant Russian President Vladimir Putin denied Russian troops were in Crimea but reserved the right to take military action to protect the safety of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

He also slammed the interim government, which replaced ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, a Russian ally, as illegitimate.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius set out a very different point of view Wednesday as he declared that sanctions could be on the cards.

"The invasion of one country into another is contrary to all international laws. We must return to dialogue and to bear in mind that Ukraine should work with Russia and the EU," he said via Twitter.

"We cannot accept, we members of the international community, a country that invades another."

On Tuesday, Kerry accused Russia of making up reasons for intervention in Ukraine, saying "not a single piece of credible evidence supports any one of these claims."

Diplomatic efforts
NATO members are set to meet with Russia's ambassador to the alliance Wednesday, amid concerns that the crisis could spread, and Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt will meet with his Danish and Norwegian counterparts in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, he said on Twitter.

EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso announced in Brussels Wednesday the EU would would offer an aid package worth 11 billion euro to Ukraine. He said the package was "designed to assist a committed, inclusive and reforms oriented" Ukrainian government.

Barroso confirmed on Twitter that the aid package would consist "of immediate short and medium term measures offering trade, economic, technical and financial assistance to #Ukraine."

During his visit to Kiev on Tuesday, Kerry announced the United States will give Ukraine's new government a $1 billion loan guarantee. Senior U.S. administration officials told CNN this would help insulate the Ukrainian economy from the effects of reduced energy subsidies from Russia.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is trying to construct what a senior U.S. administration official characterized as an "off-ramp" for Putin by having international observers in Crimea to ensure ethnic Russians' rights aren't violated.

President Barack Obama floated this idea in a call Saturday with Putin, and he and Merkel talked about it Tuesday.

Lavrov, speaking in Madrid Wednesday morning, showed no signs of budging from the position taken by Putin a day earlier.

The Russian foreign minister said the crisis had begun when the international community failed to react to the anti-government protests that preceded Yanukovych's ouster.

"There was a military coup and the legitimate president was removed by methods which were not in the constitution or legislation," Lavrov said.

"If we are so lenient to the people who are trying to govern our neighbor, everyone must realize a bad example can be spread and there shouldn't be any double standards."

Lavrov repeated Putin's denial that Russian troops are in control in Crimea, saying that the troops in question are "self-defense" forces over whom Russia has no control.

Decisions on whether international observers should be sent into Ukraine are for leaders in the country to make, he said. He pointed out that the newly installed pro-Russian government in Crimea does not see the authorities in Kiev as legitimate.

"This problem is multi-faceted. In order to calm the situation down everyone must act in accordance with the law," he said.

Stability fears
Tuesday's diplomatic efforts bore little fruit. But some observers saw a positive sign in Putin ordering Russian troops who were on mass military exercises close to the border with Ukraine back to their bases.

No violence has yet erupted in Crimea, where Russian troops currently control military bases and key installations, but the situation remains volatile.

Andriy Parubiy, secretary of Ukraine's Security and Defense Council, told reporters in Kiev Wednesday that the situation in Crimea was more calm than it was a day earlier.

Parubiy said Russian forces had not made any new military gains on the peninsula but warned of the danger of new attempts by pro-Russian protesters to take over government buildings in eastern and southern Ukraine.

Warning shots were fired by the Russia side during a confrontation at a military base near the port of Sevastopol Tuesday with Ukrainian forces, before the situation was defused.

**chaos0xomega**

Iron_Captain wrote:
I am 14 and that has nothing to do with it. The Topol-M's evasion capabillities have been succesfuly tested a number of times. Of course it may not work everytime, but it is probably going to work often enough to be effective.

It has lots to do with it, since unless you're a child prodigy you lack the engineering and science knowledge requisite to actually assess the performance of something like the Topol-M. It has been tested, yes, but only against Russian anti-missile equipment. Russian/American/Israeli, etc. anti-missile systems are all different, just because it works against Russian equipment, doesn't necessarily mean it will work against American equipment.

Crimean. They are Crimean soldiers. The Crimean government has set up its own armed forces and navy with Russian support. They may support Russia, but they are not Russian soldiers.

Only a few pages ago you were going on about how Crimeans are (ethnic) Russians, etc. Any way you slice it, they are still technically Russian soldiers, even if they aren't necessarily soldiers of the Russian Federation.

There really should be a minimum age to post in the OT.

Don't be mean, he's young, that doesn't mean he's automatically wrong.

I have wondered for days about those no-insignia troops. I mean, they obviously seem like Russians. It's the simplest explanation, and occam's razor and all...

On the other hand, Russia says they are simply militias with Russian equipment. If they were actually Spetznaz or whatever undercover, doesn't this seem a little... subtle for Russia? I mean, that doesn't seem to be their way, as of recent. Or ever.

Have you ever seen militiamen driving down the road in a column of BMPs?

They might not be Russian troops (to clarify: troops from the Russian Federation), but they were certainly equipped by them, so my question to you is: does it really make a difference?

"Sterile" uniform
in another country
No way to confirm
No way to deny
No way to prove
No Identity
No name
No unit

you have pictures and video's but no proof
Someone in government know who it is
Cannot confirm unless you get the individual Geneva Card...then its in play.

Again, have you ever seen militiamen driving a column of APCs down a road before? All irrelevant at that point, they sure as gak aren't an 'independent' force, they are either equipped by the Russians or they are Russians.

Western media describes the situation in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea as if a full-scale Russian invasion were under way, with headlines like: “Ukraine says Russia sent 16,000 troops to Crimea” and “Ukraine crisis deepens as Russia sends more troops into Crimea,” as well as “What can Obama do about Russia's invasion of Crimea?”

It seems they have chosen to simply ignore the fact that those Russian troops have been stationed in Crimea for over a decade.

The difference is that those troops were STATIONED in the Crimea, now they are DEPLOYED there, as in, they are out and about with uniforms and equipment conducting some sort of military operation.

Maybe to prevent someone stupid to start a shooting situation..I know of one Ukraine Army post under lockdown that like 15-20 south of Simperofol A mech unit More so to keep the airfield operation from being disturbed. Anyone else have the new loactions?

I hate to break it to you but I don't think Russia is really doing the whole "keep the base lifeline" thing/keep airfield operations undisturbed. Sevastopol has its own airport under Russian control at Kacha... beyond that, Sevastopol is resupplied by sea via the Russian port at Novorossiysk.

Doesn't the US need the gas itself? Also, exporting it by ship would be rather expensive, and I doubt those ships could supply enough gas to fuel a large country like Ukraine.

We have extra, but it would be pretty stupid, I agree.

We also forget that Ukraine is Russia's main gateway for fueling Europe with natural gas. The tax revenues for the exports go back to Russia, and without a leader that favors Russia over the EU, that revenue decreases or ceases altogether. The same could be argued for Syria. There is an extreme economic incentive to keep Ukraine in favor of Russia... and separating the nation into east and west is probably how Putin will attempt to do it if he can't keep his puppet in power while the neo-nazi's protest him.

See, the problem with this assumes that Ukraine has a stable economy and is capable of surviving without this sort of deal with Russia... it doesn't and it can't. Any way you slice it, Ukraine is still going to have to give Russia sweetheart deals like this in order to function at all financially (which even with those deals in place, it can't), so this argument isn't really practical.

**djones520**

Flash Headline on Fox says that Interfax is reporting a special UN Envoy was seized by armed gunmen.

I'm trying to find more details.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

djones520 wrote:
Flash Headline on Fox says that Interfax is reporting a special UN Envoy was seized by armed gunmen.

I'm trying to find more details.

Dammit man search harder!

**Wyrmalla**

I think the BBC was saying that the envoy was released, though I wasn't paying much attention to the report. =/

**djones520**

I can't find anything else, and Fox never expanded on it.

I did read a journalist story though, of how they were held at gun point by the non-Russian Russian troops.

**d-usa**

Sounds like he was stopped and intimidated by "pro-Russia militants". Looks like they let him go but pro-russia demonstrators are still following him around.

Edit: only source are German language news.

Edit 2: On his way to the airport: https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/status/441261612843151360

**Wyrmalla**

Yeah. Odd the BBC had it mentioned in their roundup of events in the country, but haven't included any articles about the event separately.

**Iron_Captain**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
I am 14 and that has nothing to do with it. The Topol-M's evasion capabillities have been succesfuly tested a number of times. Of course it may not work everytime, but it is probably going to work often enough to be effective.

It has lots to do with it, since unless you're a child prodigy you lack the engineering and science knowledge requisite to actually assess the performance of something like the Topol-M. It has been tested, yes, but only against Russian anti-missile equipment. Russian/American/Israeli, etc. anti-missile systems are all different, just because it works against Russian equipment, doesn't necessarily mean it will work against American equipment.

Unless you are a rocket scientist, specialised in intercontinental missiles and missile interception technology you too lack the necessary knowledge, so I would say that age is still irrelevant.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Crimean. They are Crimean soldiers. The Crimean government has set up its own armed forces and navy with Russian support. They may support Russia, but they are not Russian soldiers.

Only a few pages ago you were going on about how Crimeans are (ethnic) Russians, etc. Any way you slice it, they are still technically Russian soldiers, even if they aren't necessarily soldiers of the Russian Federation.

That is due to a deficiency in the English language. Russian has two different words for 'Russian'. The first word (rossiyskiy) means a citizen of the Russian Federation and includes all the non-Russian peoples living in Russia. The second word (russkiy) purely refers to those who are ethnically Russian. So you can be Russian without being Russian. Because both words translate to 'Russian' in English, i might get them mixed up sometimes. I apologize.
But yes, those soldiers were ethnic Russians, but not soldiers of the Russian Federation, which is an important difference. They didn't wear Russian uniforms and spoke with a distinctive Crimean accent. They were Crimean soldiers equipped with Russian vehicles and weapons.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There really should be a minimum age to post in the OT.

Don't be mean, he's young, that doesn't mean he's automatically wrong.

Thanks, I need to learn debating somewhere, right?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I have wondered for days about those no-insignia troops. I mean, they obviously seem like Russians. It's the simplest explanation, and occam's razor and all...

On the other hand, Russia says they are simply militias with Russian equipment. If they were actually Spetznaz or whatever undercover, doesn't this seem a little... subtle for Russia? I mean, that doesn't seem to be their way, as of recent. Or ever.

Have you ever seen militiamen driving down the road in a column of BMPs? They might not be Russian troops (to clarify: troops from the Russian Federation), but they were certainly equipped by them, so my question to you is: does it really make a difference?

Legally, yes as supplying equipment is different from directly participating in a conflict.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Western media describes the situation in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea as if a full-scale Russian invasion were under way, with headlines like: “Ukraine says Russia sent 16,000 troops to Crimea” and “Ukraine crisis deepens as Russia sends more troops into Crimea,” as well as “What can Obama do about Russia's invasion of Crimea?”

It seems they have chosen to simply ignore the fact that those Russian troops have been stationed in Crimea for over a decade.

The difference is that those troops were STATIONED in the Crimea, now they are DEPLOYED there, as in, they are out and about with uniforms and equipment conducting some sort of military operation.

Still, it is technically a occupation, not an invasion. The Western media just uses the word invasion because it sounds more agressive.

**Ketara**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Unless you are a rocket scientist, specialised in intercontinental missiles and missile interception technology you too lack the necessary knowledge, so I would say that age is still irrelevant.

You'd be surprised how often people round here have more knowledge than the occasional bod doing a wiki search. I've no idea as to chaosxomega's real life position/status/age, but I know Seaward works as a military pilot. I've got a postgraduate degree in War Studies with an offer for a PHD in Defence Studies, & Dogma registers somewhere on the academic spectrum as well (although I can't quite remember the exact field).

**Jihadin**

It started off securing two airfields and a 50 mile stretch of M17 to secure a logistic. Everything else just "escalated" into Putin favor

Crimea is gone. The local government there does not recognize the heretics in Kiev

US/EU need to really get on the ball and make a serious impact on Ukraine economy or else "He who rides a majestic white Stallione" has the eastern half of the country going for him/Russia in about six months

Ukraine lost the discount natural gas supply from Russia...whatever the petrol giant that was supplying it. Septemeber rolls around and that Siberian winter rolling in..Coldest ten days of my life and I was in a southern region...."Winter s coming" is no joke there

Only thing missing so far is the Massive Military Parades down Red Square.

Now we know how the Russian viewed us after winning the Cold War and Russia taking a lead

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Ketara wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Unless you are a rocket scientist, specialised in intercontinental missiles and missile interception technology you too lack the necessary knowledge, so I would say that age is still irrelevant.

You'd be surprised how often people round here have more knowledge than the occasional bod doing a wiki search. I've no idea as to chaosxomega's real life position/status/age, but I know Seaward works as a military pilot. I've got a postgraduate degree in War Studies with an offer for a PHD in Defence Studies, & Dogma registers somewhere on the academic spectrum as well (although I can't quite remember the exact field).

But how old are they? I think that's the point that's trying to be made. Back yourself up on experience and/or knowledge. Don't write someone off because they're 14, write them off if they're 14 AND they make gakky posts.

**Ketara**

Jihadin wrote:

Crimea is gone. The local government there does not recognize the heretics in Kiev

Commissar? Is that you?

Spoiler:

**Jihadin**

Linem the correction the ther error or misinterpretation All your doing is perpeturating the issue and I cannot spell today or thes morning..

**whembly**

Huh... what's this?

**Ketara**

whembly wrote:
Huh... what's this?

Spoiler:

Yeah, okay, I'll stop now.

I just loved the description of 'heretics' for the new Ukrainian administration.

**Jihadin**

It's mainly Jihadin repeatedly expressing his undying love and admiration for our glorious leader, Putin, God-Emperor of the Russian Imperium.

Trexmeyer started it...

**Iron_Captain**

Jihadin wrote:
Only thing missing so far is the Massive Military Parades down Red Square.

The parade is scheduled for 9 may. Parades are always scheduled for 9 may.
As a side note: In 2010 they actually had American and British (and Ukrainian) soldiers in the parade. I don't think such a thing could happen again now

(The Ukrainians march at 29:50, the British and Americans are close behind)

**Jihadin**

That's every year I believe. VE day parade. Allies over Germany

**Iron_Captain**

Jihadin wrote:
That's every year I believe. VE day parade. Allies over Germany

The Victory Day parade is every year, but this was the only time foreign soldiers participated in it.

**chaos0xomega**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Unless you are a rocket scientist, specialised in intercontinental missiles and missile interception technology you too lack the necessary knowledge, so I would say that age is still irrelevant.

Well, I have a degree in Industrial Engineering, which included coursework in aerodynamics, aerostructures, and rocket propulsion amongst other things (I was originally studying aerospace engineering but switched 3/4 of the way through) and I have a degree in Joint Military Studies, which included coursework specifically about weapons systems... so, while I might not be a subject matter expert, I am FAR more knowledgeable than you are about this.

That is due to a deficiency in the English language. Russian has two different words for 'Russian'. The first word (rossiyskiy) means a citizen of the Russian Federation and includes all the non-Russian peoples living in Russia. The second word (russkiy) purely refers to those who are ethnically Russian. So you can be Russian without being Russian. Because both words translate to 'Russian' in English, i might get them mixed up sometimes. I apologize.

And I learned something new today.

I've got a postgraduate degree in War Studies with an offer for a PHD in Defence Studies, & Dogma registers somewhere on the academic spectrum as well (although I can't quite remember the exact field).

That sounds like my wet dream...

**Jihadin**

Ugh..well.....
Fister/Forward Obsever..13F
Blackhawk Crewchief...67T
Admin Specialist.42A
Movement Coordinator..88N

Cam map read using degree's or mils..
Can crank a nut
I got so abused on PowerPoint
I can find everything in shipment or send anything as shipment.

**easysauce**

UPDATE* estonian foreign minister confirms that leaked conversation about kiev sniper is authentic.

from the tape below,

“And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,” the Estonian FM stressed.

Ashton reacted to the information by saying: “Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”

“So that she then also showed me some photos she said that as a medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened,” Paet said.

Olga Bogomolets was the main doctor for the Maidan mobile clinic when protests turned violent in Kiev. She treated the gravely injured and helped organized their transportation to neighboring countries, who had expressed a willingness to treat those with severe wounds. From the outset, Olga blamed the injuries and deaths on snipers. She turned down the position of Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine for Humanitarian Affairs offered by the coup-appointed regime.

“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” Urmas Paet said during the conversation.

“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,” Ashton answered.

The call took place after Estonia’s Foreign Minister Urmas Paet visited Kiev on February 25, following the peak of clashes between the pro-EU protesters and security forces in the Ukrainian capital.

Paet also recalled his conversation with a doctor who treated those shot by snipers in Kiev. She said that both protesters and police were shot at by the same people.

**chaos0xomega**

So, the question is, were they hired by a faction within the protesters, or did Mr. Putin see an opportunity to cause some trouble and insert some spetsnaz for covert operations?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

So the snipers were a False Flag? Wow.

I bet Alex Jones is having a field day with this one.

**Iron_Captain**

chaos0xomega wrote:
So, the question is, were they hired by a faction within the protesters, or did Mr. Putin see an opportunity to cause some trouble and insert some spetsnaz for covert operations?

I would guess that Pravyi Sektor is behind it. It would be very much like them to snipe some people. There would be little point for Putin to send in Spetsnaz at that there, considering the risk attached to that and the fact that Yanukovich's guys were already on the job.

**Jihadin**

This gets better by the day. Neo Nazi...Snipers from both sides.I am going with both sides since both sides most likely have the same weapons..

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

chaos0xomega wrote:
So, the question is, were they hired by a faction within the protesters, or did Mr. Putin see an opportunity to cause some trouble and insert some spetsnaz for covert operations?

Couldn't have been us? We couldn't have seen it as a chance to get a Russian loyal out of office? My mind went to Russia at first too but after a second I realized that the US is more likely to be involved than anybody.