Frazzled wrote:
Of course not. They are just dropping that ship there to provide a new refuge for plant and animal life, to create a new man made reef so that Nature may flourish once more.
They are just being Green.

An American Special Ops Veteran On The Ground In Ukraine Speaks Out

One of my Ukrainian colleagues asked me if I was informing my friends back home about the situation here. I admitted that I’ve only talked to my wife much about it and he accepted that. I got to thinking and decided that I’ve been delinquent.

I came here in [TIMELINE REDACTED] on a contract to help build a professional corps of NCOs for the Ukrainian Army. It was a dismal failure. The military budget couldn’t support building the kind of NCO corps the US Army has. Ukraine just doesn’t have the budget for the personnel and training changes that are necessary. Also, as a result of many years of European- and Soviet-style military doctrine, the junior leaders are officers; NCOs are just technicians. That’s worked for them for a couple centuries. The current mid-grade officers recognized that this wasn’t the most efficient way of leadership, but they just can’t convince the civilians to put enough in the budget to professionalize the force. Conscription stopped this year, but they are a long way from developing a small, professional army.

I left Ukraine and went back to Iraq, then Germany, then Afghanistan. I came back to Ukraine when I got the opportunity to work at one of the few diamonds in the rough that I’d seen in Ukraine on my earlier contract. I’m now a [JOB POSITION AND LOCATION REDACTED]

During my last [TIMELINE REDACTED] here now, I’ve met and worked with several Ukrainian mid-grade (major through colonel) and junior grade (lieutenant and captain) officers. Plus a few hundred cadets. I’ve made friends, a couple enemies, and a lot of good colleagues. I’ve met local civilians and have eaten in some fantastic cafes. I enjoy living in [CITY REDACTED]. It has a history that goes back a couple thousand years and is rich in a culture that even Soviet occupation for 50 years could not destroy.

Ukrainians are almost as much of a mixed culture as is the USA. There are leftists, rightists, centerists, and a few idiots. There is a small but vocal group that bears resemblance to the Nazi Party in Germany in 1939. There are human rights activists, well educated professionals, business entrepreneurs, and criminals. Just like home. What amazed me, however, was the level of corruption. I expected it, after having worked in former socialist countries before, and have seen what happens when you toss out the communists.

The only groups ready to replace the communists… the only groups with any formal/semi-formal hierarchy, organization, chains of command, resource procurement procedures, etc… the only groups immediately available… are the crooks and criminal organizations. What usually happens is the crooks make their way into government positions, both elected and appointed, and just raise the level of their operations to a national level. The people usually get tired of it, and either vote them out or kick their asses out. Once they do, the only groups ready to move back in and take charge are…. the old communists! They’ll have a new name, but old styles. So the folks kick them out and the damned crooks come back in… usually with less power.

Ukraine has gone through these cycles. There is no civil service system here. When a new political party takes charge, everyone who works for the government expects to lose their job. Teachers, civil works technicians, cops, secretaries, postal workers, etc. If they don’t offer a bribe to their new politically appointed boss, they will lose their paycheck.

Cops are a special thing. No city cops, no state cops, just the national police. and they get paid MUCH less than minimum wage. A cop does not chase criminals, he chases his boss’ political opponents. A traffic cop does not enforce traffic laws, he fights to get assigned to a check point on a good street so he can stop new cars and extort money from the driver (obviously well off… he’s driving a new car) using some trumped up charge. I’ve been stopped many times. They want me to blow into a fake breathalyzer so they can charge me with DUI. I was stopped once and they asked for my ID and drivers license. I unbuckled my seat belt to get to my wallet. The cop looked at my license and then wanted to charge me with not wearing my seatbelt. Normal Ukrainians normally pay the cop somewhere between $12 to $20 to get on their way. I show my US passport and start dialing the embassy on my cell phone. They usually let me go.

Businesses are extorted by officers attempting to enforce unwritten city codes. Driving schools don’t teach kids to drive, the kids can buy a license for $50 and walk out the same day they enrolled in the course. Everything is like that.

When I got here I was just flat amazed how deep the corruption was. My translator asked me how I would handle such a situation back in [HOME STATE REDACTED]. I told him we had enforceable laws, much more accountability of officials… and as a last resort, the.45 on my hip and the AR-15 in my bedroom gun cabinet. He sighed…. said we have none of that. We can’t make changes.

Well folks. Ukrainians stood up on their hind legs these last few months, and they fought back against the crooks… and they won! More than one hundred of them died doing it. It’ll take the new folks in government to change what they had. It’s hard changing a nation, a culture of corruption, a business environment that doesn’t know how to enforce contract law. But they want to give it a chance.

And now, Vladimir Putin has decided that he can’t allow the new Ukraines to succeed. Because if they do, Russians might decide to get rid of the criminals who are the Russian Mafia, and the people like Putin who are trying to rebuild… not the Soviet Union… but the old Russian Empire. There are good geo-political reasons for him to desire that., but it comes at the cost of Ukrainian freedoms to chose.

The US will not, maybe cannot, jump in here and oppose the Russians militarily (the US has zero tanks left in Germany, folks). The Germans, Brits, French, etc., don’t have the forces to do it, either. Nor the political will. So a NATO military option is out of the question. The Ukrainian military is too small, too under-resourced, and too tied to old Soviet style doctrine to go it alone.

So, what is left?

That will be up to President Obama, the British Prime Minister, Ban-Ki-Moon at the UN, and, believe it or not, the people and prime minister of Turkey. The Poles might go up against the Russians. They’ve done it before. Polish military history is pretty brave. They’ve been outclassed and outmatched, but no one can ever accuse them of cowardice. If the Russians try to take western Ukraine, the Poles might surprise everyone.

I support what the Ukrainians are trying to do. I can’t do much about it, except teach… Because of the semi-official position I work in, I can’t do much more. If it gets too dangerous out here in western Ukraine, I have to go home. If it gets too politically strenuous for the US, the State Department might order us to go home. I’m not impressed with John Kerry whining that Putin doesn’t respond to our super-civilized new world society. He is “stunned” that Mr Putin acted in the same old way that Russians have always reacted. By force. By making your enemies fear you. By taking action, not talking. I’m amazed that anyone with a clue really thinks that this 21st century is going to be much different than the 19th century. History shows us otherwise. Every Damned Time.

So, I’ve made my conscience easier by writing this. The old Ukrainian colleague who asked if I had written my friends is a retired [RANK AND PROFESSION REDACTED]. And he is itching to put his uniform back on and go defend Ukraine. Against the Russians. Against a force a hundred times bigger. He has a beautiful, [AGE REDACTED] year-old daughter, who wants to be a ballerina. And he wants her to have the opportunity to do it in a free, law-abiding, free-enterprise nation. And he’s willing to go up against the Russian Bear to do it.

I just wanted you to know.

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Hooo boy....

Not surprising, the Russians have a naval airbase there. Though I can't remember if it falls under their lease, I assume it does.

Sorta escalating the events eh?

The Guardian wrote:The de facto authorities in Crimea have announced that they consider the territory to be part of Russia after a swift vote in the local parliament.

The MPs said on Thursday morning that a referendum planned for 30 March – which was due to ask voters if they wanted more autonomy from Kiev – would now take place on 16 March, ask whether they wanted to join Russia, and only be a ratification of a decision that had already been taken.

The parliament also appealed to Moscow to assist its decision to seek union with Russia.

The bombshell announcement coincided with an emergency EU summit in Brussels devoted to Ukraine. Senior EU officials denounced the idea as "completely illegal" while British officials said they would take their cue from the interim Ukrainian government, which deems the referendum anti-constitutional.

The acting Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk, roundly dismissed the referendum idea.

Crimea_map_WEB
"This is an illegitimate decision. This so-called referendum has no legal grounds at all. Crimea was, is and will be an integral part of Ukraine.

"In case of further escalation and military intervention into Ukraininan territory by foreign forces, the Ukrainian government and military will act in accordance with the constitution and laws."

In Moscow, Russian MP Sergei Mironov said the Duma, Russia's parliament, could consider the appeal from Crimea as early as next week. The Duma has already begun work on a bill that would make it easier for new territories to join Russia, clearly penned with one eye on events in Crimea. On Tuesday, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, had said categorically that Russia was "not considering" joining Crimea to Russia.

At a press conference in the Crimean capital Simferopol, the deputy prime minister of the region, Rustam Temirgaliev, said the parliament voted by 78 votes to 0, with eight abstentions, to hold the referendum on 16 March. He said the decision, which also gave the go-ahead to the territory to begin preparations to join Russia, "comes into effect from the current moment". The referendum would be held "only to confirm" the decision.

Temirgaliev said that as of Thursday, the only legal troops on Crimean soil were the Russian army.

"Any troops of a third country will be treated as illegal band formations, with all the consequences that entails," he said.

Shortly after this decision was announced, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe confirmed that an observer mission of more than 30, dispatched to defuse the situation in the peninsula, had been "prevented from entering Crimean territory".

Ukraine has a number of military bases in Crimea that have come under siege from armed local volunteers and the Russian army in recent days. Russia has denied its troops are involved in the region despite widespread evidence to the contrary. Ukrainian soldiers in the bases have come under pressure to defect to Russian or Crimean forces, but have mainly not done so.

With events moving quickly on the ground, the big question is whether the officer class starts to defect en masse, and whether Russia uses force if they do not.

In Kiev, Ukraine's economy minister, Pavlo Sheremeta, said the referendum would be illegitimate, but in Simferopol, politicians said the referendum was now only a formality. Crimea has a large pro-Russian population, though many want more autonomy rather than actual union with Russia.

The Kremlin's final goal in Crimea has been murky, with many analysts suggesting that Putin would be satisfied with more autonomy or de facto independence for the region, but Thursday's events appear to suggest that the decision has been taken to annex the region.

"We have a group of Russian specialists here working on introducing the Russian rouble to the region," said Temirgaliev. He added that all Ukrainian state property in the region would be nationalised.

Outside the parliament building in Simferopol, a group of about 100 people waved Russian flags and chanted as the Russian national anthem was played, as well as a new "Crimean anthem" that begins: "The island of Crimea is fighting for freedom" and continues with scornful words about "fascist bands" in Kiev and their western backers.

The proceedings were interrupted by two topless demonstrators from the protest group Femen, who charged the stage with "Stop Putin's War" written on their torsos. They were beaten and screamed at by a crowd of elderly women before being dragged off by Cossack irregulars and taken away in a police van.

 Corpsesarefun wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They should have hired a proper Slavic girl instead. Slavic girls are more loyal and much prettier to look at

It's somewhat depressing to see someone post that at 14.

 Jihadin wrote:
So if Crimea becomes a satellite Russian country....say going the route of Ukraine without the violence and either join as a whole Russia or become seperate with the same agreement with Sevastopol Naval Base..


If your all going to "debate" Iron_Captain on his viewpoints with your viewpoints It lends more credibility to your debate if you back it up with some links

Crimea’s parliament, which enjoys a degree of autonomy under current Ukrainian law, voted 78-0 with eight abstentions Thursday in favor of holding the referendum and joining Russia. Local voters will also be given the choice of deciding to remain part of Ukraine, but with enhanced local powers.

RIA reported that the referendum would consist of two questions. The first would ask whether voters wished to join Russia "as a subject of the [Russian Federation]." The second question would ask whether voters wished to remain a part of Ukraine but as an autonomous republic, as laid out in the country's post-Soviet 1992 constitution

 Iron_Captain wrote:
http://rt.com/usa/obama-ukraine-crimea-referendum-262/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26475508
Looks like the US is now against democracy... Supporting an undemocratic government in Kiev in opposing a democratic referendum?
So much for being the epitome of 'freedom and democracy'...

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Crimea is still part of Ukraine whoever is in charge, a fragment of the country can't just go off doing their own thing because central government is in doubt and the Russians say they can do what they like. First the country needs to carry out democratic elections, then perhaps they need a referendum on crimea.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Corpsesarefun wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They should have hired a proper Slavic girl instead. Slavic girls are more loyal and much prettier to look at

It's somewhat depressing to see someone post that at 14.

Agreed.

Why? It may have come out wrong. I meant loyalty to Moscow. A Slavic, Russian girl would've not been as likely to turn her back on RT over disagreements with Russian policies and would thus have been a better choice. The second part was a generalisation and matter of personal preference.

I just happen to actually support Putin on many points. Is that so wrong?

He is a teenage son of expatriates, probably first generation if we go by his comments, so his general view of the world is coloured by this personal reality and he just doesn't have the mental maturity to be able to distinguish truth from propaganda.

I see allot of young people like him over here, only here they are the sons of African immigrants. They grow to idolize their home country because not having had any real contact with the reasons that forced their parents to leave it they think that it is just like the place where they currently live, only "better" in some vague way.

Basically I have no idea why people like chaos0xomega or Ketara are giving any credence to his posts, he is just way too young to be discussing something like this in any meaningful way.

Hooo boy....

Russia Sinks Ship to Block Ukrainian Navy Ships

Interestingly, Russia has done this exact thing before (blocking a narrow inlet with ships). In WWII (I think, might have been the earlier Russo-Japanese war) they blocked entry into Vladivostok's harbor by sinking their own ships.

Am I the only one who is starting to admire this guy's iron? He would be a more worthy opponent for Nixon or Reagan than the post Bush I lot.
"Soldiers deserve soldiers, sir"
- Kurt Russell, The Soldier

Honestly I never got the fascination over a girl or guy being from a certain country/area I've seen hot Canadians, Eastern European, Africans, Indians, etc, etc on the qualities I'm looking for in a women what country they're from is so low on the list it doesn't even matter to me.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Crimea is still part of Ukraine whoever is in charge, a fragment of the country can't just go off doing their own thing because central government is in doubt and the Russians say they can do what they like. First the country needs to carry out democratic elections, then perhaps they need a referendum on crimea.

-Shrike- wrote:Why is this referendum illegal and anti-constitutional, and the violent revolution in Kiev something to be proud of?

“Pres Obama has been clear that we cannot allow Russia or any country to defy international law with impunity,” Sec. Kerry added. “There’s no place in the community of nations for the kind of aggression and steps that we have seen taken in Crimea and Ukraine in these last days.”

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
From that Russia Today article linked to earlier in this thread.

“Pres Obama has been clear that we cannot allow Russia or any country to defy international law with impunity,” Sec. Kerry added. “There’s no place in the community of nations for the kind of aggression and steps that we have seen taken in Crimea and Ukraine in these last days.”

Only America is allowed to defy internation law with impunity.

-Shrike- wrote:Why is this referendum illegal and anti-constitutional, and the violent revolution in Kiev something to be proud of?

 OneManNoodles wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:Why is this referendum illegal and anti-constitutional, and the violent revolution in Kiev something to be proud of?

To answer your second point, why should the Americans be proud of the 4th of July or the French; Bastille day?

Because in a democracy a government serves the people, the people have the right and the duty to overthrow a government that fails its constitutional agreement.
A government does not have the right to murder its own people just because they have a different opinion on how things should be run.

For the Crimea, just look at what is happening in the UK with Scotland, if it suddenly decided overnight it was leaving the union WITHOUT a democratic vote of all the people within the regional geopolitical boundary that the local government represents.

Just the members of the Scottish assembly government getting together and then saying "Scotland is now independent".
Imagine the Anarchy if anyone who has any area of land can just declare it as independent!

Now lets also add that the vote took place with no independent witnesses and under armed Russian troops!

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
What's with all the creeps and Neonazis in the Ukraine? Are the newscast just making them out to be backwater idiots over there, or are they just THAT racist over there? If so, them Russians can have them.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
What's with all the creeps and Neonazis in the Ukraine? Are the newscast just making them out to be backwater idiots over there, or are they just THAT racist over there? If so, them Russians can have them.

 Jihadin wrote:
It favors Putin so its the wrong type of democracy.