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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:26:34
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Lieutenant Colonel
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jesus people... where are you getting all theses fantasy's about the crimeas only wanting to ceseed because they have guns pointed at their heads....
they have wanted this for some time...
the east elected a leader, that leader was violently thrown out of government by the western opposition...
can you see how the east might feel disenfranchised by this?
how are the armed people who violently stormed kiev forcing the crimeas to do what they say,
better then the armed people in crimea, non-violently allowing the crimeans to decide for themselves?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:32:04
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Iron_Captain wrote: Frazzled wrote:
Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy, except in the glorious Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, er Russia. Now Vote Properly Comrade. Its very cold in Siberia.
Whats funny is Russia is a 3rd rate just this side of 3rd world country now.
The Soviet Union is long gone, but clearly not in your mind. Get over it and come back to the present.
The people in Crimea are not being forced to vote one way or another, the Russian troops are there to protect the Russian naval base and stop the illegitimate regime in Kiev from interfering. They are not threatening any civilians.
Your second comment is so full of gak and ignorance that I don't even know why I bother replying to it. Clearly you have never been to Russia nor an actual 3rd world country.
Maybe you should learn to think before you insult other nations.
yea its a 3rd world nation. Brazil stomps it GDP wise.
If you think a fair election can be held when one side is sitting there with guns you're what we call crazy.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:37:15
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Morphing Obliterator
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Frazzled wrote: Iron_Captain wrote: Frazzled wrote: Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy, except in the glorious Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, er Russia. Now Vote Properly Comrade. Its very cold in Siberia. Whats funny is Russia is a 3rd rate just this side of 3rd world country now.
The Soviet Union is long gone, but clearly not in your mind. Get over it and come back to the present. The people in Crimea are not being forced to vote one way or another, the Russian troops are there to protect the Russian naval base and stop the illegitimate regime in Kiev from interfering. They are not threatening any civilians. Your second comment is so full of gak and ignorance that I don't even know why I bother replying to it. Clearly you have never been to Russia nor an actual 3rd world country. Maybe you should learn to think before you insult other nations. yea its a 3rd world nation. Brazil stomps it GDP wise. If you think a fair election can be held when one side is sitting there with guns you're what we call crazy.
As opposed to the other type of crazy, who think a fair election can held in Kiev. Especially now that we know that if Western Ukraine doesn't like the result, they'll just overthrow the elected president. Seriously, could you just answer this one question? -Shrike- wrote:Why is this referendum illegal and anti-constitutional, and the violent revolution in Kiev something to be proud of?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/07 17:40:02
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:48:11
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Co'tor Shas wrote:
If your not a Scottish-freedom-person-thing (they have a name, I just forgot it), would you be OK with Scotland seceding and joining Ireland. Or for people from the US, Texas or Alaska. Or for people from Canada, Quebec. And on, and on. I think that's the point. It's not like America and Britain, or India and Britain (you guys really did control about half the world) where it's a foreign power. I think that's their point. I don't really have an opinion on this issue yet, but you have to admit, Russia is a hard country to agree with knowing what Putin has done.
If the Scottish want to join Norway or Ireland or somewhere? Let 'em. Democracy baby.
You'll note that here in the UK, the rest of us don't get a vote on whether or not they leave. Whilst I'm ruthless in that I feel that any Scottish independence should be negotiated heavily in our favour (keeping highly Pro-Britain areas of 60% or more, retaining our nuclear base Gibraltar style, no currency union, etc), people who want to govern themselves should get it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:50:59
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Imperial Admiral
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easysauce wrote:joking aside,
I find it extremely Ironic, that so many people, from a country FOUNDED by an "illegitimate" declaration of independance from their true leaders in the great bristish empire,
would decry other people, trying to make their own decisions via democratic vote.
If you are calling a violent revolution "legitimate" (hey some are) but are calling a democratic vote "illegitimate" you might just be a hyppocrate (read in jeff foxworthy voice)
It's also a country that fought a very bloody war to keep half of itself that wanted out as part of the union.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:52:56
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:
If you think a fair election can be held when one side is sitting there with guns you're what we call crazy.
So, uh, what does that say about the "government" of the Ukraine?
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:53:37
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I think the difference there is that the citizens are the ones holding the guns.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 17:57:15
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Grey Templar wrote:I think the difference there is that the citizens are the ones holding the guns.
They were? You could have fooled me. How did they fit the entire democratic electorate into such small offices?
I think what you meant to say, was that some few people who happen to be citizens are holding the guns. When you consider that most of the army/navy in Crimea defected and swore loyalty to the elected Parliament of Crimea, you realise that the second one actually has a better claim to legitimacy than the former.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/07 18:01:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 18:01:19
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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The presence of the Russian military taints the result of any election that Crimea takes.
I'm not saying the new Government in Kiev is any better. Its the choice between crap and crap.
At the very least the government in Kiev has more legitimacy, as legitimate as any revolutionary government can be.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 18:05:14
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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easysauce wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:If your not a Scottish-freedom-person-thing (they have a name, I just forgot it), would you be OK with Scotland seceding and joining Ireland. Or for people from the US, Texas or Alaska. Or for people from Canada, Quebec. And on, and on. I think that's the point. It's not like America and Britain, or India and Britain (you guys really did control about half the world) where it's a foreign power. I think that's their point. I don't really have an opinion on this issue yet, but you have to admit, Russia is a hard country to agree with knowing what Putin has done.
by that same logic, new york shouldnt be able to elect a mayor that washington doesnt like... texas should have to run govenours by the other states ect ect.
same with the founding of the united states, totally illegal, come pick up your british citizenships and shut down your ilegal country immediatly
That's not my logic. That's my interpretation of the reason people are against Russian cession of Crimrea. As I said " don't really have an opinion on this issue yet."
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Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 18:05:24
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Seaward wrote:It's also a country that fought a very bloody war to keep half of itself that wanted out as part of the union.
so? the war of independance was a bloody one as well... you have to own both parts of history,
do we just pick and choose, based on what we in particular want to be "legitimate" at the time?
you would do well to remember, that the "legitimacy" of those secessions (both independance and civil war), was subjectively determined by the victor of the war, not because secession is legal or not as an absolute truth.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 18:09:10
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Imperial Admiral
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So the whole, "You can't decry the Crimean referendum because of the Revolution!" line is a bit weak with the Civil War coming less than a hundred years later.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 18:32:53
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Seriously, could you just answer this one question?
-Shrike- wrote:Why is this referendum illegal and anti-constitutional, and the violent revolution in Kiev something to be proud of?
You're creating a straw man. The only comparison here is yours. Further, they are having actual elections in Kiev. You can't have a free election if one of the parties is sitting there with tanks.
If they wanted that - and they don't- there would be UN or 3rd party poll watchers here. This is a Russia landgrab.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:17:53
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Grey Templar wrote:The presence of the Russian military taints the result of any election that Crimea takes.
Why? I don't genuinely believe that the Russians have had time yet to subvert the electoral system of another country, the Crimean MP's voted 64-0 in favour of integration before sending it to referendum, and the country is majority ethnically Russian. What's more, their alternative option seems to be a more than slightly anti-Russian administration that ousted the pro-russian administration they helped to vote in.
If this was Poland or somewhere, then yes, I wouldn't believe that the election would be free and fair, because there'd be no way that the Russians would win it without rigging it. But here? I honestly don't think they're going to rig it, simply because they don't have to. The majority of the locals want them there, and prefer them to the alternative choice (aka, the illegal anti-Russian coup government).
And that's what a lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp, that a region could democratically wish to join Russia. No, no, no. It must be those evil Russians, forcing people into the voting booths at gunpoint and ticking the boxes for them whilst holding revolvers to their heads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/07 19:18:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:19:55
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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When have the Russians had an election that was free and fair?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:26:21
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Frazzled wrote:When have the Russians had an election that was free and fair?
I think the question should be, 'When did Crimea last have a free and fair election'. Because they're the ones who have the established electoral system and the voting populace.
Although having said that, Russia doesn't generally rig elections. It tries to influence them by launching corruption charges and smear campaigns against certain candidates the Government doesn't like, but they don't tend to tamper with the boxes at the polling booths, or shoot people who vote the wrong way. They're not Robert Mugabe.
Just out of curiosity, if UN observers were sent in, and concluded that the referendum was totally free and fair, as it were, would you be willing to support their joining Russia?
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/07 19:33:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:33:12
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Ketara wrote: Frazzled wrote:When have the Russians had an election that was free and fair?
I think the question should be, 'When did Crimea last have a free and fair election'. Because they're the ones who have the established electoral system and the voting populace.
Although having said that, Russia doesn't generally rig elections. It tries to influence them by launching corruption charges and smear campaigns against certain candidates the Government doesn't like, but they don't tend to tamper with the boxes at the polling booths, or shoot people who vote the wrong way. They're not Robert Mugabe.
Just out of curiosity, if UN observers were sent in, and concluded that the election was totally free and fair, as it were, would you be willing to support their joining Russia?
Under the gun of the RUssians. I'll repreat, when have the Russians ever had a free and fair election? When have they permitted another party under their control to have free and fair elections?
North Vietnam
North Korea
Poland
East Germany
Hungary
Czechloslavakia
Yugoslavia
Romania
When exactly? Which have the four or tifve rotating elections Putin has been in have been fair and free?
That gak don't wash.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:34:51
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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To reiterate my previous point Frazzled.
I don't genuinely believe that the Russians have had time yet to subvert the electoral system of another country, the Crimean MP's voted 64-0 in favour of integration before sending it to referendum, and the country is majority ethnically Russian. What's more, their alternative option seems to be a more than slightly anti-Russian administration that ousted the pro-russian administration they helped to vote in.
If this was Poland or somewhere, then yes, I wouldn't believe that the election would be free and fair, because there'd be no way that the Russians would win it without rigging it. But here? I honestly don't think they're going to rig it, simply because they don't have to. The majority of the locals want them there, and prefer them to the alternative choice (aka, the illegal anti-Russian coup government).
And that's what a lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp, that a region could democratically wish to join Russia. No, no, no. It must be those evil Russians, forcing people into the voting booths at gunpoint and ticking the boxes for them whilst holding revolvers to their heads.
They won't rig it because they don't need to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:43:52
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Right, because nobody dare vote against them.
They've successfully intimidated/cowed/brainwashed their populace into only voting for the party the government wants to stay in power. Dissenters better stay home.
While the election results may be genuinely what gets entered in the polls, its a rigged system because of external pressures. Anyone that disagrees doesn't vote or the vote doesn't matter because their candidate was forced to leave the election.
Intimidating the candidates is just as bad as physically tampering with the ballots.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/07 19:44:57
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:47:12
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Grey Templar wrote:Right, because nobody dare vote against them.
They've successfully intimidated/cowed/brainwashed their populace into only voting for the party the government wants to stay in power. Dissenters better stay home.
Prove it. Seriously, prove that one. I haven't heard a single media report of a Crimean MP being forced to step down, a single report of Russian troopers threatening people to vote the right way, or even a single report of a Russian trooper beating someone up.
As for brainwashing, the Crimean media has not been subverted or taken over to the best of my knowledge. The educational system does not have Marxist re-educationalists kicking out the teachers and indoctrinating the children. What's more, it would have to be some pretty fast brainwashing to be done in two weeks on the majority of the population.
In other words, what you just said? Prove it. Substantiate your wild assertion of Russians 'brainwashing' and intimidating the Crimean populace.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/07 19:48:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:52:28
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Ketara wrote:To reiterate my previous point Frazzled.
I don't genuinely believe that the Russians have had time yet to subvert the electoral system of another country, the Crimean MP's voted 64-0 in favour of integration before sending it to referendum, and the country is majority ethnically Russian. What's more, their alternative option seems to be a more than slightly anti-Russian administration that ousted the pro-russian administration they helped to vote in.
If this was Poland or somewhere, then yes, I wouldn't believe that the election would be free and fair, because there'd be no way that the Russians would win it without rigging it. But here? I honestly don't think they're going to rig it, simply because they don't have to. The majority of the locals want them there, and prefer them to the alternative choice (aka, the illegal anti-Russian coup government).
And that's what a lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp, that a region could democratically wish to join Russia. No, no, no. It must be those evil Russians, forcing people into the voting booths at gunpoint and ticking the boxes for them whilst holding revolvers to their heads.
They won't rig it because they don't need to.
Pretty much because of the whole genocide and repopulation thing that someone mentioned a little earlier in the discussion.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:52:44
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I heard it onthe news this morning, that MPs weren't allowed to vote. Why exactly are you defending a dictator?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/07 19:53:06
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 19:58:55
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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djones520 wrote:
Pretty much because of the whole genocide and repopulation thing that someone mentioned a little earlier in the discussion.
Sure. That was quite a while back now. That one can't be pinned on Putin. But if the Tartars hadn't been oppressed, would they have still had cause to hate Russia? You might have found that they'd be Pro-Russian instead, and thus nudge the majority even more in favour of Russian integration.
You can't rewrite history without affecting more than one factor.
Frazzled wrote:I heard it onthe news this morning, that MPs weren't allowed to vote.
Why exactly are you defending a dictator?
The MP's already voted to hold the referendum. 64-0, remember? Perhaps they're not allowed to vote in the referendum, but with only 64, that's hardly a dent in the voting populace, they've already indicated what they'd favour (Russia), and it's most likely a quirk of the Crimean voting system if anything.
Thing is Frazzled, I look at these things critically, and analytically. When people oppose things for the sake of opposing them, I try and point it out. I'm not in favour of 'Putin'. I'm in favour of the Crimean people's right to self-determination, especially when their alternative is a Government made of people who violently shoved their way into power, and are just as corrupt as the batch that preceded them.
If the Crimeans wanted independence? They should have it. They want to be Ukrainian? Sure. They want to be Russian? Daft, but their choice. If someone can genuinely produce something to show the Russians intimidating the local populace or vote rigging, then my opinion would change accordingly. But I've seen nothing whatsoever to substantiate anything like that occurring so far. If you can find it, please do show me. Until then, it's just an empty assertion, and if you asserted it before looking for evidence, then you're not looking at these things critically to begin with (and more looking for evidence to prop up a pre-existing bias).
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/03/07 20:02:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:02:57
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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You said Prove it. Seriously, prove that one. I haven't heard a single media report of a Crimean MP being forced to step down, a single report of Russian troopers threatening people to vote the right way, or even a single report of a Russian trooper beating someone up.
And I stated I did in fact hear just that this morning. Again why are you defending a former KGB dictator?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/07 20:03:31
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:05:33
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Frazzled wrote:You said
Prove it. Seriously, prove that one. I haven't heard a single media report of a Crimean MP being forced to step down, a single report of Russian troopers threatening people to vote the right way, or even a single report of a Russian trooper beating someone up.
And I stated I did in fact hear just that this morning.
Again why are you defending a former KGB dictator?
Source?
And see my last post. I answered you quite explicitly, overtly, and bluntly there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:11:43
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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You're defending a dictator who has invaded another country and is joyously well along in his process of annexing it.
Pharoah would be proud.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:15:47
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Frazzled wrote:You're defending a dictator who has invaded another country and is joyously well along in his process of annexing it.
Pharoah would be proud.
No. I'm telling you to substantiate your assertions. Which since you say you saw them this morning, shouldn't be too hard to remember where you saw it exactly?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:18:37
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Frazzled wrote: Iron_Captain wrote: Frazzled wrote: Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy, except in the glorious Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, er Russia. Now Vote Properly Comrade. Its very cold in Siberia. Whats funny is Russia is a 3rd rate just this side of 3rd world country now.
The Soviet Union is long gone, but clearly not in your mind. Get over it and come back to the present. The people in Crimea are not being forced to vote one way or another, the Russian troops are there to protect the Russian naval base and stop the illegitimate regime in Kiev from interfering. They are not threatening any civilians. Your second comment is so full of gak and ignorance that I don't even know why I bother replying to it. Clearly you have never been to Russia nor an actual 3rd world country. Maybe you should learn to think before you insult other nations. yea its a 3rd world nation. Brazil stomps it GDP wise. If you think a fair election can be held when one side is sitting there with guns you're what we call crazy.
1. Brazil is also not a 3rd world nation. 2. GDP does not say anything about standard of living. 3. The standard of living of the average Russian is a lot higher than that of the average Brazillian. 4. Russia is ranked as 'high' on the Human Development index. It seems you still don't know what a 3rd world country is. And why so afraid of guns? It is not like they are threatening anyone with them. The Crimean people can do and vote whatever they want. It is not like they are being held hostage or forced to vote at gunpoint. The Russians are there to guarantee the possibility of a referendum in the first place. Why is that so hard to understand? If the Russian soldiers hadn't been there, the regime in Kiev would have never allowed this referendum to be held. Should the Crimeans vote to remain part of Ukraine, the Russian soldiers would withdraw to Sevastopol. But of course the Crimeans aren't going to choose to remain part of the Ukraine. Everyone who knows Crimea knows that by far the most people would rather be a part of Russia. Why all this hatred towards Russia? Frazzled wrote:You're defending a dictator who has invaded another country and is joyously well along in his process of annexing it. Pharoah would be proud.
So now you are calling Putin a dictator? Putin is a highly popular and democratically elected (in elections under international supervision) president. If you call Putin a dictator than you should call Obama also a dictator.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/07 20:22:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:21:32
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Ketara wrote: Frazzled wrote:You're defending a dictator who has invaded another country and is joyously well along in his process of annexing it.
Pharoah would be proud.
No. I'm telling you to substantiate your assertions. Which since you say you saw them this morning, shouldn't be too hard to remember where you saw it exactly?
Heard - radio. NPR or BBC most likely. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although having said that, Russia doesn't generally rig elections
Wow, that just stops me cold.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/07 20:22:24
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/07 20:23:23
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Iron_Captain wrote:
The Russians are there to guarantee the possibility of a referendum in the first place. Why is that so hard to understand? If the Russian soldiers hadn't been there, the regime in Kiev would have never allowed this referendum to be held.
Should the Crimeans vote to remain part of Ukraine, the Russian soldiers would withdraw to Sevastopol. But of course the Crimeans aren't going to choose to remain part of the Ukraine. Everyone who knows Crimea knows that by far the most people would rather be a part of Russia.
Why all this hatred towards Russia?
Yes and no. The Crimeans wouldn't get the referendum without them being there.
At the same time, guaranteeing that referendum is not the Russian's motivation for being there. And I'm not convinced they'll withdraw if it goes against them. More likely that would be when repression/setting up a puppet state would begin.
But at the end of the day, they're not doing it yet, because they don't think they have to. It also makes the West look like bloody hypocritical fools, because they're criticising democracy and self-determination when they criticise the Crimea voting to join Russia.
Frazzled wrote:Heard - radio. NPR or BBC most likely.
I've done a search. Can't find anything. I'm afraid that a second hand assertion on a radio show isn't quite enough for me to believe that the Crimeans are suddenly suffering widespread repression, simply because that would be front-page if it was more than just somebody's opinion at this stage.
Wow, that just stops me cold.
It might help if you actually read the rest of the post as opposed to stopping nine words in.
See, Frazzled, I've actually lived in a country where the voting system is rigged. Where the votes are read by a man with a gun in front of you, where you get denied food if you vote the wrong way, where tens of thousands of votes are 'lost', and the entire dead population seems to vote for the current Government. Compared to those, Putin's election was the very model of democracy.
At the same time, I am aware that the Russian Government does a LOT to bias people one way or another. But at the end of the day, you don't get hunted down in Russia for voting the wrong way, they don't deliberately lose/alter your vote, and you don't get much in the way of fraud. They'll do everything else to alter the outcome, but a rough democracy does prevail, and I can substantiate that with reports from electoral monitoring bodies if necessary.
Iron_Captain wrote:So now you are calling Putin a dictator? Putin is a highly popular and democratically elected (in elections under international supervision) president. If you call Putin a dictator than you should call Obama also a dictator.
This is nonsensical. Putin's popular in some parts, and yes, he is relatively democratically elected. Yes, some internal supervisors are present. But they operate under severe restrictions, there are severe attempts to stab the competition in the back before they reach the voting booth, and some supervisory bodies choose to bypass Russia on that basis.
Obama is infinitely more legitimate in terms of democracy than Putin.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/03/07 20:34:50
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