Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**Iron_Captain**

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I have to say that i am not too comftable with Russia re-building her Empire

Its weird, its Americans and English that seem to have a problem with modern Russia, not the Germans, French or Italians.

Germans seem to see themselves as superior to the Slavic people while the English historically have feared them going back centuries, strange.

Germans see themselves as superior? Where did you get that idea? It is not the 1940s anymore. Most Germans don't really see themselves as superior. Not at all I would say.
Besides that, I feel obliged to mention that WW2 proved who really are the superior people

I think it can be better explained from historical and geopolitical reasons. Historically, the British have always been afraid of the Russians. The Russian Empire was the primary rival of the British Empire, especially in 'the Great Game'. Therefore the British have been treated to centuries of anti-Russian propaganda. That probably does leave a mark on a people. The US has of course the Cold War in recent memory.
The Germans on the other hand have, besides fought against, also often allied and fought together with the Russians. So historically, Germany does not have such a hostile view of Russia. Also, the Germans have relatively recently lost a massive war to the Russians, they have no desire to see Russian tanks roll towards Berlin again.
Geopolitical aspects are also important. The US and UK are far from Russia, safe on their islands. Germany on the other hand, is much closer to Russia and its tank divisions, and should there be war, it will likely be Germany (along with Poland) that will have to serve as the main battlefield.
France was defeated by Russia in the early 19th century (Napoleon's first defeat), and apart from that, France has never really had any trouble with Russia. Italy even less so.
The Russians themselves generally view France and especially Germany as friendly (mainly because of the intensive contact with the DDR), while they mostly view the UK as hostile and a puppet of the US. Russian feelings of the US swing between carefully positive at best, to a burning hatred at worst. The US has been especially reviled since Putin's rise to power. I find it somewhat ironic that the US is now much more disliked in Russia than it was in the Cold War.
The brilliant Boris Kagarlitsky once made a very good statement on current Russian anti-Americanism:

"Ironically, one of the dominant trends here is that we are anti-American because we want to be exactly like America. We are angry that Americans are allowed to invade minor nations and we are not."

**chaos0xomega**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
-Shrike- wrote:
Seriously? Short of a declaration of war, what would you do against Russia in this situation?

Emergency sign Ukraine into NATO, move well equipped and well trained Western troops into Ukrainian bases as part of 'shared training exercise'. Move Western fighters and bombers onto Ukrainian airfields and have them fly over Ukrainian sovereign airspace with the understanding that unmarked military units not identifying themselves are international terrorists and can be actively targeted.

Let Putin weigh the size of his balls after that.

We've been trying to bring Ukraine into NATO for like two decades now, theres a reason it hasn't happened, and for the most part that reason is that the Ukrainian people are overwhelmingly against it. What you're proposing is really no better than what Russia has done.

Besides that, I feel obliged to mention that WW2 proved who really are the superior people

The Germans? They had something like a 7:1 K/D ratio against the Soviets (and a 2:1 ratio against all Allied powers overall)...

**Frazzled**

Germans see themselves as superior? Where did you get that idea? It is not the 1940s anymore. Most Germans don't really see themselves as superior. Not at all I would say.

I’ll give you this. Eurotechno music is like the caterwalling of demons infested with jock itch.

Besides that, I feel obliged to mention that WW2 proved who really are the superior people

Aussies and Texans. God made Australia to train the faithful. Sinners go to Hell. Real sinners go to Texas.

I think it can be better explained from historical and geopolitical reasons. Historically, the British have always been afraid of the Russians. The Russian Empire was the primary rival of the British Empire, especially in 'the Great Game'. Therefore the British have been treated to centuries of anti-Russian propaganda. That probably does leave a mark on a people. The US has of course the Cold War in recent memory.

Afraid? Doubtful. They did try that balance of power thing for awhile.

The Germans on the other hand have, besides fought against, also often allied and fought together with the Russians. So historically, Germany does not have such a hostile view of Russia. Also, the Germans have relatively recently lost a massive war to the Russians, they have no desire to see Russian tanks roll towards Berlin again.

Other than the Napoleonic wars (where just as many German states fought on Napoleon’s side) what the hell are you talking about?

Geopolitical aspects are also important. The US and UK are far from Russia, safe on their islands.

North America is an island? You’re right. I forgot about Arizona’s glorious Gold Coast.

Germany on the other hand, is much closer to Russia and its tank divisions, and should there be war, it will likely be Germany (along with Poland) that will have to serve as the main battlefield.

True that.

France was defeated by Russia in the early 19th century (Napoleon's first defeat), and apart from that, France has never really had any trouble with Russia. Italy even less so.

Agreed although Italy had tens of thousands of casualties in Russia in WWII.

The Russians themselves generally view France and especially Germany as friendly (mainly because of the intensive contact with the DDR), while they mostly view the UK as hostile and a puppet of the US. Russian feelings of the US swing between carefully positive at best, to a burning hatred at worst. The US has been especially reviled since Putin's rise to power. I find it somewhat ironic that the US is now much more disliked in Russia than it was in the Cold War.

As you weren’t around during the Cold War I call bs.

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Swede, I'll respectfully disagree. Not everyone in "the West" was on board with the whole Iraq debacle either, you know. The fact that the US and friends did some rather silly things doesn't mean we can't call out Putin on doing silly things of his own.

You may be shocked to learn that again I agree with you

**Iron_Captain**

Frazzled wrote:
Afraid? Doubtful. They did try that balance of power thing for awhile.

They certainly were afraid of the Russians threatening their interests. Afraid may be the wrong word to use though. Do you know a better one?

Other than the Napoleonic wars (where just as many German states fought on Napoleon’s side) what the hell are you talking about?

Russia and Germany have fought each other 4 times (War of Austrian Succession, Seven Years War, World War I, World War II) and fought together 6 times (First, Second and Third Partitions of Poland, French Revolutionary Wars, Napoleonic Wars, Invasion of Poland) Poor Poland... Even if we count all three Partitions as a single war, Russia and Germany still fought together as much as against each other. Russian/German relations were also rather good during most of the 18th and 19th centuries, and both countries have supported each other many times outside of warfare.

North America is an island? You’re right. I forgot about Arizona’s glorious Gold Coast.

I know North America isn't an island, but I hope you got the point I was trying to make.

As you weren’t around during the Cold War I call bs.

I wasn't around, but my father and many others I know were. I have the ability to talk to them and hear their opinions about it, you know?

**Frazzled**

So you don't really know. Got it.

**Corpsesarefun**

Frazzled is over three times your age, he personally witnessed the events you have "spoken to your dad about".

And I'm still mystified by this deep seated rivalry that Britain is supposed to have with Russia.

**whembly**

Wo...

Russian troops seize hospital, missile base in Ukraine's Crimea

Russian troops seized a military hospital and a missile base in the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea Monday, in the latest show of force in the battle for the country’s disputed future.

Pro-Russian militias joined Russian troops in taking over the hospital in Simferopol -- the region’s main administrative city -- herding staff members into a hallway to apparently “meet the institution’s new directors,” Reuters reported, citing Interfax. The report said 20 patients at the hospital are gravely ill.

Russian soldiers disarmed servicemen at a Ukrainian Army missile base overnight Friday. Ukrainian military spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov told a local TV station that some 200 troops approached the building and threatened to charge it if the Ukrainian soldiers refused to give up their weapons.

Crimea's parliament has set a March 16 referendum on joining Russia, which has been denounced by Ukraine's government.

While separatists in Crimea are keeping up the pressure for unification with Moscow,Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk vowed Sunday not to give up "a single centimeter" of his country's territory. During commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the birth of Ukraine's greatest poet, Yatsenyuk said, "This is our land."

Standing before the crowd gathered at the Kiev statue to writer and nationalist Taras Shevchenko on Sunday, Yatsenyuk said, "Our fathers and grandfathers have spilled their blood for this land. And we won't budge a single centimeter from Ukrainian land. Let Russia and its president know this."

Yatsenyuk will address the United Nations Security Council about the situation in Crimea Thursday, Interfax reported Monday.

Interfax also quoted Yatsenyuk telling reporters he believed Russia sought to "undermine the foundations of global security and revise the outcome of World War II.''

President Barack Obama will meet Wednesday with Yatsenyuk to discuss options to peacefully resolve Russia's military intervention in Crimea.

Also Friday, one of Russia's most famous prisoners suggested Russia is ruining its longstanding friendship with Ukraine by its aggressive and pro-separatist actions in Crimea. Mikhail Khodorkovsky made the remarks in a lecture to students at Kiev Polytechnic University Monday.

"We are losing Ukrainian-Russian friendship" because of Russian actions, Khodorkovsky said.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has refused to have any dealings with the new Ukrainian leaders who replaced fugitive pro-Kremlin President Viktor Yanukovych.

But Khodorkovsky expressed support for them, saying they came to power thanks to "a revolution of justice." Khodorkovsky, once Russia's wealthiest man, was pardoned last December by Putin. Many believe he was convicted of tax violations and other crimes and sent to prison on trumped-up charges.

"Ukraine must become a European state," the former tycoon told the students. For that to happen, Khodorkovsky said there must be foreign investment, eradication of corruption and a modern-day Marshall Plan of international assistance

Putin defended Russia’s actions in Crimea, claiming they were in keeping with international law. President Obama has warned the March 16 vote would violate international law. But in Moscow, Putin made it clear over the weekend that he supports the referendum in phone calls Sunday with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and British Minister David Cameron.

According to the Kremlin, Putin said, "The steps taken by the legitimate leadership of Crimea are based on the norms of international law and aim to ensure the legal interests of the population of the peninsula."

The Associate Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

**Frazzled**

Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled is over three times your age, he personally witnessed the events you have "spoken to your dad about".

And I'm still mystified by this deep seated rivalry that Britain is supposed to have with Russia.

Well, Russia could have limited vodka supplies, thus impacting the martini market. Britain and M5 would doubtly be concerned about the loss of quality martinis.

"Shaken, not stirred"
"So you like wussy martinis?"
"What?"
"Er...nevermind"

**chaos0xomega**

The Germans, overall, have a pretty negative view of Russia (interestingly, Russians tend to have a more positive view of Germans), but politically they have had no qualms over working together with the Russians when its in their best interest to do for. Realpolitik and pragmatism have seemingly always been the Germans approach to politics, even Hitler put aside ideology and beliefs to partner with the Soviets when it benefited him most to do so.

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

Cool then... I actually feel better now about this crummy situation.

And yet you did nothing, at all, to improve it.

In fact you worsened the situation by propagating misinformation.

**whembly**

dogma wrote:
whembly wrote:

Cool then... I actually feel better now about this crummy situation.

And yet you did nothing, at all, to improve it.

In fact you worsened the situation by propagating misinformation.

I gave the source after you called me out...

A couple of poster then correct me on it...

I said "cool then... I actually feel better now about this crummy situation.".

So, get off your high horse, will ya?

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

Spoiler:

That image does not remind me of any technique for playing the violin. So, poor form.

As to the Ukraine: This is more interesting.

**-Shrike-**

Whembly:

Earlier, Ukraine's Defense Ministry said a group of about 20 pro-Russian activists from the so-called Crimea self-defense squads had broken into the military hospital in the region's main administrative city, Simferopol, and thrown out its chief.

In a later statement, it said the hospital chief was back at work after negotiations but added the premises were being blockaded by the activists.

However a CNN team that traveled to the hospital found it very quiet, with no one around. A guard on duty said he had not heard or seen anything unusual and that there was no senior official to speak with as Monday was a public holiday.

In the course of the rapidly changing events of the past week, a propaganda war over Ukraine has quickly developed as each side seeks to strengthen its stance.

From the article Dogma linked to. To me, it certainly looks like Western Ukraine is really pushing out the BS propaganda now. (Not saying Russia isn't also doing similar things, but isn't this the second or third time fake attacks have been reported?)

What I would give for an unbiased, politically neutral news source...

**PhantomViper**

-Shrike- wrote:

What I would give for an unbiased, politically neutral news source...

If only those freedom loving certainly-not-Russian soldiers weren't keeping the unarmed observers out of the territory...

**MrDwhitey**

Amusingly, that would probably still not help the whole "biased politically neutral news source" issue.

**Easy E**

Does anyone know if the Ukrainian Prime Minster actually said this...

While separatists in Crimea are keeping up the pressure for unification with Moscow,Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk vowed Sunday not to give up "a single centimeter" of his country's territory. During commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the birth of Ukraine's greatest poet, Yatsenyuk said, "This is our land."

Standing before the crowd gathered at the Kiev statue to writer and nationalist Taras Shevchenko on Sunday, Yatsenyuk said, "Our fathers and grandfathers have spilled their blood for this land. And we won't budge a single centimeter from Ukrainian land. Let Russia and its president know this."

.... because those are fightin' words.

**-Shrike-**

PhantomViper wrote:
-Shrike- wrote:

What I would give for an unbiased, politically neutral news source...

If only those freedom loving certainly-not-Russian soldiers weren't keeping the unarmed observers out of the territory...

Let's look at what I quoted:

Earlier, Ukraine's Defense Ministry said a group of about 20 pro-Russian activists from the so-called Crimea self-defense squads had broken into the military hospital in the region's main administrative city, Simferopol, and thrown out its chief.

In a later statement, it said the hospital chief was back at work after negotiations but added the premises were being blockaded by the activists.

However a CNN team that traveled to the hospital found it very quiet, with no one around. A guard on duty said he had not heard or seen anything unusual and that there was no senior official to speak with as Monday was a public holiday.

Unless CNN were armed (always possible

), they appear to be observing in the territory of Crimea.

**PhantomViper**

-Shrike- wrote:

Unless CNN were armed (always possible ), they appear to be observing in the territory of Crimea.

CNN couldn't observe their own arse with a mirror and a map.

They are about as thrust worthy as the Russian propaganda machine that Iron_Captain is so found of quoting...

**Corpsesarefun**

The BBC are being far more neutral than either CNN or anything Iron_Captain is posting, though they are still clearly biased against Russia.

**PhantomViper**

Corpsesarefun wrote:
The BBC are being far more neutral than either CNN or anything Iron_Captain is posting, though they are still clearly biased against Russia.

To be honest, the facts are being pretty biased against Russia so its probably not BBC's fault.

**Iron_Captain**

Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled is over three times your age, he personally witnessed the events you have "spoken to your dad about".

And I'm still mystified by this deep seated rivalry that Britain is supposed to have with Russia.

But unless I am very mistaken, Frazzled is not Russian. So that makes his view kinda irrelevant, since I was talking about the Russian view towards America in the Cold War. If anything, Frazzled's (and many other's) comments here prove my point that the American view towards Russia hasn't changed much since the end of the Cold War.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The Germans, overall, have a pretty negative view of Russia (interestingly, Russians tend to have a more positive view of Germans), but politically they have had no qualms over working together with the Russians when its in their best interest to do for. Realpolitik and pragmatism have seemingly always been the Germans approach to politics, even Hitler put aside ideology and beliefs to partner with the Soviets when it benefited him most to do so.

I agree. Germans may not like Russia's politics, but they do work together frequently. Meanwhile, Germany is one of Russia's favourite holiday destinations.

**Corpsesarefun**

Frazzled's views haven't changed since the the stone age, let alone the cold war. Also it's telling that you believe only Russians can comment on the history of the cold war.

**Iron_Captain**

Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled's views haven't changed since the the stone age, let alone the cold war. Also it's telling that you believe only Russians can comment on the history of the cold war.

Where did you hear me say that last part? Americans or anyone else can comment on the history of the Cold War just as well. It is just that I was talking about the Russian views, not all the others. I could tell you plenty of the Dutch views on the Cold War as well, but that is not relevant here.

**Frazzled**

Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled's views haven't changed since the the stone age, let alone the cold war. Also it's telling that you believe only Russians can comment on the history of the cold war.

Well I did live through the public statements Da Kommie Pinkoes made to the world. Of course back then they didn't just say crap in Pravda. They 8 gazillion AK-s to every revolutionary between here and Antarctica.

"Fire, thpt, that fad will pass."
-Frazzled.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nixon: "look this is something called a refrigerator."
Khruschev:"We have refrigerators in Russia capitalist dog."
Nixon:"This is a toaster."
Khruschev:"We will bury you. Our toasters are size of car."
"look, this is a prototype of something we call a microwave."
Khruschev:"Does it come in red?"

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled's views haven't changed since the the stone age, let alone the cold war. Also it's telling that you believe only Russians can comment on the history of the cold war.

He said that only a Russian is qualified to comment on Russian public opinion during the Cold War. Its telling that you're still twisting his words after he explained how you were twisting his words.

**Mr. Burning**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled's views haven't changed since the the stone age, let alone the cold war. Also it's telling that you believe only Russians can comment on the history of the cold war.

He said that only a Russian is qualified to comment on Russian public opinion during the Cold War. Its telling that you're still twisting his words after he explained how you were twisting his words.

Wrong. A Russian is qualified to comment on their own perception of public opinion. They are not qualified to comment on Russian public opinion as fact.

**Frazzled**

IN STALINIST RUSSIA, OPINION FORMS YOU!

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

[DELETED]

**Mr. Burning**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Corpsesarefun wrote:
Frazzled's views haven't changed since the the stone age, let alone the cold war. Also it's telling that you believe only Russians can comment on the history of the cold war.

He said that only a Russian is qualified to comment on Russian public opinion during the Cold War. Its telling that you're still twisting his words after he explained how you were twisting his words.

Wrong. A Russian is qualified to comment on their own perception of public opinion. They are not qualified to comment on Russian public opinion as fact.

So you're finally responding to what he actually said rather than a straw man you made up? Took long enough.

Not sure why you are aiming at me sunshine......