Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

Foreign country. Foreign troops. Taking out your government. Killing your people.

Well the Crimeans are claiming that there exists popular support for Russian governance in the Crimea (to say nothing of Eastern Ukraine), so even if you're arguing that Hungary and Czechoslovakia were cases of invasion your argument would not extend to the present issue.

Frazzled wrote:

Soviets invaded and put down governments of a bent they didn't like in Hungary, Czechloslovakia, and Afghanistan.

The Soviets, not the Russians.

Seaward wrote:

Or when, it seems.

Anyway, I suppose we'll just have the conversation around you.

I agree that there were influxes of Russian troops to territories that Russia had previously occupied at those time.

Did those influxes constitute invasions? I'm not sure.

As to having a conversation around me: go ahead, create your echo chamber.

**Mr. Burning**

Everything I have read on the subjects depicts the actions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary as invasion. And calls it such.

Dogma - Your responses do come across as arsey and pedantic sometimes. (IMO)

**Iron_Captain**

Frazzled wrote:
whembly wrote:
Why is being an "empire" a bad thing?

Didn't say it was (ok giving up most of the world after WWII was a mistake I'll grant you), just throwing water on the strange argument that Russia is some sort of peacenik nation historically. You don't get that big by being peaceful.

**dogma**

Mr. Burning wrote:

Dogma - Your responses do come across as arsey and pedantic sometimes. (IMO)

I have a doctorate in political science with a specialization in IPoli, on matters such as this it is to be expected.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Technically, they weren't invasions since the Soviet troops were already in the country, but they are often described as invasions for lack of a better word.

They are strange cases. I've considered classifying them as coups, but that doesn't seem right either.

**Frazzled**

Altough I would like to argue that they had little choice, since Russia, for a majority of its history, has always been attacked on all sides by enemies.

I will agree that it has had its share of invasions and threats, especially from mongol and turkic empires.

As an OT, but what are Cossacks? Are they former mongol/turkic types or something else? They always seem to pop up in the news.

**whembly**

dogma wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:

Dogma - Your responses do come across as arsey and pedantic sometimes. (IMO)

I have a doctorate in political science with a specialization in IPoli, on matters such as this it is to be expected.

pffft.

I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express!

**Frazzled**

I used the restroom at a Holiday Inn once, but they made me leave. What does "smelly exceptionally stupid looking wild bear" mean exactly and why were the police shooting darts at me?

**Breotan**

Seaward wrote:
Anyway, I suppose we'll just have the conversation around you.

I've had him on ignore for a number of months now. Not for his opinions, mind you, but because his incessant quote parsing, pedantry, and deflection.

Debating opposing viewpoints is far more pleasant these days, despite the new crop of trolls who've recently set up camp in the OT.

**MrDwhitey**

You spelt trolls wrong, therefore your entire argument is wrong.

I win, +1000 points to me.

*celebrates alone, in his basement*

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
I used the restroom at a Holiday Inn once, but they made me leave. What does "smelly exceptionally stupid looking wild bear" mean exactly and why were the police shooting darts at me?

If they were trying to shoot animal tranq darts at you... you'd be an enraged "smelly exceptionally stupid looking wild bear"-umie...

As many animal tranqs are derivatives of PCP.

**Frazzled**

Mmm Pcp. Nothing says "SPIDERS DEAR GOD SPIDERS ON MY ARMS GETHEMOFFGETHEMOFFGETHEMOFF!!!" like pcp.

**Breotan**

MrDwhitey wrote:
You spelt trolls wrong...

Prove it.

(Seriously, though, I'm posting with my phone at the moment so I find myself constantly fighting autocorrect.)

**dogma**

Echo chamber created.

**Easy E**

Dogma, I think the fact that troops are based there is not at issue. It is an invasion when your troop incursion is designed to change the policies/regime of the current government. After all, Clausewitz argued that war was simply political policy by another means.

In other news, isn't this Crimea thing a bit of a Fait Accompli? There really isn;t anything anyone can do about it.

**Dreadclaw69**

Frazzled wrote:
Don't be daft boy and play your mindless word games somewhere else.

Seaward wrote:
Anyway, I suppose we'll just have the conversation around you.

Frazzled wrote:
We'll just have to risk it.
"Back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman makes sandwiches."

Breotan wrote:
I've had him on ignore for a number of months now. Not for his opinions, mind you, but because his incessant quote parsing, pedantry, and deflection.
Debating opposing viewpoints is far more pleasant these days, despite the new crop of trolls who've recently set up camp in the OT.

All reasons why dogma shares my ignore list with our resident Tacticool Operator

I can't say that I miss the constant arguing that up is down and that night is day.

**Frazzled**

Can Aquaman still make sandwiches...out of tuna!!!

**Alpha 1**

According to the new 52 yes

**Iron_Captain**

Frazzled wrote:
Altough I would like to argue that they had little choice, since Russia, for a majority of its history, has always been attacked on all sides by enemies.

I will agree that it has had its share of invasions and threats, especially from mongol and turkic empires.

As an OT, but what are Cossacks? Are they former mongol/turkic types or something else? They always seem to pop up in the news.

Cossacks are interesting. They are an East Slavic people that forms a traditional warrior caste with its own seperate communities and its own seperate culture. They usually have been fiercely loyal to the Russian state and the Orthodox church. Their origins are unkown, but likely to be with the Mongol/Turkic steppe peoples. They were almost wiped out during the Soviet period, as they sided with the whites in the Civil War, but since the fall of the USSR, they have made a careful recovery, and the last decade, since Putin supports them, they have been doing quite well. I have posted this before, it is an interesting article and video about the return of the cossacks by the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/world/europe/cossacks-are-back-in-russia-may-the-hills-tremble.html
The cossacks have been incredibly important in Russian history, as they guarded the borders against enemy raids, and it is the Cossacks who eventually conquered all of Siberia and even fought against China. There used to be cossacks in Ukraine as well, and they are an important part of Ukraines history, but I don't know if there are any left nowadays.
In short: The cossacks are communities of highly conservative warriors who traditionally fought on horseback and guarded Russia's frontiers. In modern Russia they are mainly active in law enforcement and they have their own army divisions. They support the Russian state, but have a very high degree of autonomy.
In Crimea, they are currently active in organising pro-Russian demonstrations and beating up anti-Russian protesters.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
Can Aquaman still make sandwiches...out of tuna!!!

Only sushi, and only spicy.

**chaos0xomega**

Dogma, you're kinda wrong, at least on Hungary. In the case of Czech '68, the Soviet forces were predominantly already in Czechoslovakia (although technically Hungary, Bulgaria, and East Germany DID invade). In the case of Hungary '56, there were very little Soviet forces in Hungary itself at the time, due to the reorganization of the Central Group of Forces following the Soviet withdrawal from Austria the prior year (the successor "Southern Group of Forces" primarily located within Hungary was not established until after the Revolution). The vast majority of forces INVADED from the East via Romania, the only Soviet forces actually within Hungary being some Soviet Air Force squadrons not tasked with occupational duties.

Re: Invasion, as I understand it Luftwaffe pilots stationed at Holloman AFB in New Mexico (and other foreign troops in the US for training) aren't allowed to leave US military installations in uniform, as that would constitute a former invasion of US soil. Similarly, Swiss troops in uniform on exercise in Switzerland accidently crossed into Liechtenstein, which constituted a formal (if not accidental) invasion (prompting apology from the Swiss government), despite the fact that (as I understand it) the Swiss government is responsible for Liechtensteins national defense via treaty.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

dogma wrote:
Echo chamber created.

We've gone full echo chambers guys! Shout louder so we can go Giga!

**whembly**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
dogma wrote:
Echo chamber created.

We've gone full echo chambers guys! Shout louder so we can go Giga!

Or let the girls fight it out...

They're tough...

Like this chick.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

[EDIT]

Deleted the comment because it was quoting comments from two pages back and the thread has moved on.

**Ensis Ferrae**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Russia is an empire.

No it isn't. The Soviet Union was an empire, but Russia is no more an empire than the US is.

And the Lannisters do not control Westeros

**Ouze**

dogma wrote:
Echo chamber created.

I understand the dangers of what you are saying here, but if you look at that thread on hedge funds Sebster is currently embroiled in, I think it clearly shows that some people simply have an unacceptable signal to noise ratio and you're going to have a much better Dakka experience if you simply ignore them. I'm careful not to block people for their POV though, just how they express it (or more accurately, if they even express one at all instead of just making noise).

I know some people here (maybe even you, I forget) have a Christopher Walken style approach where they don't ever ignore anyone, but whoever that was is obviously a better man that I.

whembly wrote:
:thumbs nose: come and take it yo!

The classical insults remain the best.

Reuters has a good article up here.

Ukraine appeals to West as Crimea turns to Russia
BY ANDREW OSBORN AND ALASTAIR MACDONALD
SEVASTOPOL/KIEV Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:42pm EDT

(Reuters) - Ukraine's government appealed for Western help on Tuesday to stop Moscow annexing Crimea but the Black Sea peninsula, overrun by Russian troops, seemed fixed on a course that could formalize rule from Moscow within days.

With their own troops in Crimea effectively prisoners in their bases, the new authorities in Kiev painted a sorry picture of the military bequeathed them by the pro-Moscow president overthrown two weeks ago. They announced the raising of a new National Guard to be drawn from volunteers among veterans.

The prime minister, heading for talks at the White House and United Nations, told parliament in Kiev he wanted the United States and Britain, as guarantors of a 1994 treaty that saw Ukraine give up its Soviet nuclear weapons, to intervene both diplomatically and militarily to fend off Russian "aggression".

But despite NATO reconnaissance aircraft patrolling the Polish and Romanian borders and U.S. naval forces preparing for exercises in the Black Sea, Western powers have made clear that, as when ex-Soviet Georgia lost territory in fighting in 2008, they have no appetite for risking turning the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War into a military conflict with Moscow.

Diplomacy seemed restricted to a war of words. The U.S. and Russian foreign ministers did speak by telephone. But the U.S. State Department said Moscow's position offered no room for negotiation and the Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement condemning U.S. financial aid to the "illegitimate regime" in Kiev, which it calls ultra-nationalists with "Nazi" links.

That language echoed ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovich, who gave a news conference in Russia insisting that he was still the legitimate head of state. Toppled by protests sparked by his rejection of closer ties with the European Union in favor of a deal from Russian President Vladimir Putin, Yanukovich blamed his enemies for provoking Crimean secession.

Parliament in Kiev, whose position is backed by Western governments, dismisses plans for a referendum on Sunday to unite the region with Russia as illegitimate and resolved on Tuesday to dissolve Crimea's regional assembly if by Wednesday it had not scrapped the plebiscite. There seems no chance that it will.

Moscow, which to widespread scorn denies its troops have any role in the takeover of the once Russian-ruled region, says people in Crimea, a small majority of whom are ethnic Russians, should have the right to secede. It has made much of anti-Russian sentiment among some Ukrainian nationalists - though many native Russian speakers in Ukraine are wary of Putin.

SANCTIONS, REFERENDUM

U.S. lawmakers are preparing sanctions against Russia and European Union leaders could impose penalties, such as bans on visas for key officials, as early as Monday.

By then, however, Crimea could already have voted - in a referendum not recognized by Kiev or the West - to seek union with Russia. The ballot paper offers no option to retain the status quo of autonomy within Ukraine.

Voters among the two million population must choose either direct union with Moscow or restoring an old constitution that made Crimea sovereign with ties to Ukraine. On Tuesday, the regional assembly passed a resolution that a sovereign Crimea would sever links to Kiev and join Russia anyway.

The Russian parliament has already approved the accession in principle of Crimea, which was handed to Ukraine by Soviet rulers 60 years ago. Still, it is not clear whether or how soon Putin would formalize such a union as he engages in a complex confrontation with the West for geostrategic advantage.

In disputes with Georgia, Russia has granted recognition to small breakaway states on its borders, a process critics view as annexation in all but name. It fiercely criticized Western recognition of the independence of Kosovo from its ally Serbia - a process which Crimea's parliament nonetheless cited as a legal precedent for its own forthcoming declaration of independence.

There seems little chance that Crimea's new leaders, who emerged after Yanukovich's overthrow as Russian-backed forces took control of the peninsula, will fail to get the result they want. A boycott by ethnic Tatars, 12 percent of the regional population and deeply wary after centuries of persecution by Moscow, will have little effect as there is no minimum turnout.

In Sevastopol, the Crimean home port of Russia's Black Sea Fleet, Valery Medvedev, the chairman of the city's electoral commission, made no pretence at concealing his own preference:

"We're living through historic times. Sevastopol would love to fulfil its dream of joining Russia. I want to be part of Russia and I'm not embarrassed to say that," he told reporters.

There is little sign of campaigning by those opposed to the government line. Billboards in Sevastopol urge people to vote and offer a choice of two images of Crimea - one in the colors of the Russian flag, the other emblazoned with a swastika.

UKRAINIAN TROOPS

It is unclear whether thousands of Ukrainian servicemen, many of whom are native Crimeans but are effectively trapped on their bases and ships by Russian troops and local militia allies, will take part in the referendum.

One sailor, who declined to be named, said he would only vote if he got the order from his commander to do so, a position echoed by many other servicemen spoken to by Reuters. They all said they would vote for Crimea to remain part of Ukraine.

Elena Prokhina, an ethnic Russian planning to vote for union with Moscow, said she feared the referendum could lead to conflict with others in Ukraine, notably nationalists in the Ukrainian-speaking west of the country of 46 million.

"Knowing what I know about the fanaticism of the western Ukrainians, we will have to defend our rights after the referendum," she said. "They won't just let us leave."

Around Sevastopol, Ukrainian military facilities remained under virtual siege on Tuesday. At an air defense base outside Sevastopol, dozens of men who looked like Russian soldiers were camping outside the gate, while an armed Ukrainian serviceman could be seen pacing the base's roof keeping a wary eye on them.

In the port, two Ukrainian warships remained on alert but unable to set sail because of Russian vessels and a cable strung across the harbor by Russian forces. Relatives of the sailors come to the dockside every day to converse and provide food.

A Ukrainian officer said there was a fragile understanding between the two fleets not to escalate the situation, but he said nerves were frayed: "The Russians have not troubled us until now," he said. "But all it takes is one order and they will open fire. We won't be able to hold out long".

CALL FOR HELP

In parliament, the acting defense minister said that of some 41,000 infantry mobilized last week, Ukraine could field only about 6,000 combat-ready troops, compared to over 200,000 Russians deployed on the country's eastern borders. The prime minister said the air force was outnumbered 100 to one.

Acting president Oleksander Turchinov warned against provoking Russia, saying that would play into Moscow's hands, as he announced plans to mobilize a National Guard, though he gave little detail of its size or expected functions.

Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, who will visit the White House and United Nations Security Council this week, said the 1994 treaty under which Ukraine agreed to give up its Soviet nuclear weapons obliged Russia to remove troops from Crimea and also meant Western powers should defend Ukraine's sovereignty.

"What does the current military aggression of the Russian Federation on Ukrainian territory mean?" he said.

"It means that a country which voluntarily gave up nuclear weapons, rejected nuclear status and received guarantees from the world's leading countries is left defenseless and alone in the face of a nuclear state that is armed to the teeth.

"I say this to our Western partners: if you do not provide guarantees, which were signed in the Budapest Memorandum, then explain how you will persuade Iran or North Korea to give up their status as nuclear states."

Parliament passed a resolution he had proposed calling on the United States and Britain, co-signatories with Russia of that treaty to "fulfil their obligations ... and take all possible diplomatic, political, economic and military measures urgently to end the aggression and preserve the independence, sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine".

But Western powers have been careful to note that Ukraine, not being a member of NATO, has no automatic claim on their help and Ukrainian officials gave no details on what they hoped for. The wording of the 1994 treaty indicates that help is only required if Ukraine is threatened by a nuclear attack.

(Additional reporting by Natalia Zinets, Pavel Polityuk, Richard Balmforth and Ron Popeski in Kiev; Writing by Alastair Macdonald; Editing by Peter Graff)

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Russia is an empire.

No it isn't. The Soviet Union was an empire, but Russia is no more an empire than the US is.

And the Lannisters do not control Westeros

They don't actually. At best they have a tenuous control over half. The Westerlands, the Reach, the Riverlands and the Crownlands. The North, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Storm Lands, and Dorne are all in open rebellion, are neutral or are publicly loyal and allied to the Lannisters but secretly plotting against them (Dorne).

All the Lannisters control are ravaged and partially depopulated lands riddled with roving bands of bandits and deserters, and numerous defeated Lords and houses forced to pledge allegiance to the Lannisters after their side was defeated but who cannot be considered loyal (Riverlands Lords and Stannis' men who sought Joffrey's pardon instead of fleeing north with him).

Sorry, Game of Thrones fan.

**whembly**

Heh... saw this on my twitter feed this morning...

The "West": We're not going to G8 planning meetings!

Putin: I have Crimea.

The "West": But... "meetings".

Putin: <stares uncomprehendingly>

**Easy E**

What I am really interested in is how our opposition in the Crimea will impact Russia's cooperation in the Middle-East?

**whembly**

Easy E wrote:
What I am really interested in is how our opposition in the Crimea will impact Russia's cooperation in the Middle-East?

What cooperation?

**Dreadclaw69**

whembly wrote:
Easy E wrote:
What I am really interested in is how our opposition in the Crimea will impact Russia's cooperation in the Middle-East?

What cooperation?

You know, the cooperation where they back a dictator quashing an uprising in his own country, provide weapons, intelligence and advisers. Then help an exporter of terrorism continue along a path that could lead to an nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

That cooperation