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They are of course free to do such things and is their right as citizens.

They of course have no chance of winning but that doesn't mean they should be stopped from running, it would be illegal to do that.


As for the situation in Ukraine. well... Them being Nazis hardly justifies Russia's invasion. Maybe if they'd actually had time to do some Nazi stuff, like tossing ethnic russians into gulags or some other major human right's violations it would be justified, but they haven't yet.

if we make it through the next 100 years as a race I have hope for.the future

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, you may have missed that little coup that happened last month...

Ukrainian parliament remains a legal, democratically elected representative body as far as I can tell from the brief lecture of the current constitution.

 Formosa wrote:
if we make it through the next 100 years as a race I have hope for.the future

At least we'd get to see how it all ends

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, you may have missed that little coup that happened last month...

Ukrainian parliament remains a legal, democratically elected representative body as far as I can tell from the brief lecture of the current constitution.

It is, and it voted the President out. The people didn't storm the palace and drive him out at gun point. The legally elected Parliament impeached the President and stripped him of his powers.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As for the situation in Ukraine. well... Them being Nazis hardly justifies Russia's invasion. Maybe if they'd actually had time to do some Nazi stuff, like tossing ethnic russians into gulags or some other major human right's violations it would be justified, but they haven't yet.

And I would very much like to keep it that way. We should not wait until the nazis start messing stuff up, by then it will be too late. We should take preventive measures. We should never accept the regime in Kiev as legitimate until they throw out all the far-right and nazi groups. What kind of regime does business with nazis? Even worse, this regime has nazis in it. Why does the West take this matter so lightly? The February protests were very anti-Russian in nature, some people there really said absolutely horrible things. And now those people are in the government. Sure, they haven't done much yet, but who is to say they aren't going to put their words into action? There is a historical precedent, I don't blame people for looking to Russia for protection.


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 djones520 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, you may have missed that little coup that happened last month...

Ukrainian parliament remains a legal, democratically elected representative body as far as I can tell from the brief lecture of the current constitution.

It is, and it voted the President out. The people didn't storm the palace and drive him out at gun point. The legally elected Parliament impeached the President and stripped him of his powers.

The impeachment procedure violated the constitution however, which makes it invalid.

Neither side is desirable, but only one has done something wrong as of this moment in time.

actually, right now the body count is
post revolution coup government + allies has killed two people who were anti maiden protestors
russia has killed 0,


so yeah, only one side has really done something "wrong" in that sense...

Also the fact that people from right sector have literally killed anti-maiden protestors in areas of the ukraine other then crimea, should be evidence enough that the revolutionaries are certainly NOT in control of themselves or the country enough to guarantee the safety of anti-maiden/pro-russian peoples.


even if the self defense forces in crimea, are 100% russian as is alleged but not proven, they still have total permission to be there under previous treaties, and they are not killing anyone unlike the right sector groups.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


They of course have no chance of winning but that doesn't mean they should be stopped from running, it would be illegal to do that.

.

I never said ban him from running... it should simply illustrate what kind of people are being put in power, and what kind of people now have support to have even MORE power in the next election.

I dont think you understand the situation over there... they have enough support to be appointed to key positions in the judicial, law, and military in the past month... why would a fringe party even get any appointments at all? let alone such key positions and in such #'s.

svoboda ALONE had 10% of the seats from the last election BEFORE they gained popularity just before the maiden riots. since they have formed coalitions with some other parties, and formed a majority opposition prior to the revolution.

in other words, the momentum is behind these radical groups, not in front of them... western support has only made them bolder and more accepted, so while I dearly wish you to be correct, I really do not think the pendulum is swinging that way.

Short month or so until the election shows who was right either way.


also, I think auto correct is neo-nazi, it keeps trying to correct Svoboda to bodacious

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The impeachment procedure violated the constitution however, which makes it invalid.

Well, what is, and is not, part of the Ukrainian Constitution is a matter of debate so the question of constitutionality isn't really relevant.

 easysauce wrote:


this guy looks like exactly the kind of person who should be put into power by violent means....

And the guy in the ski mask looks like Ivan Drago... Guess we'd better send "Rocky" over to fix this situation.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


And the guy in the ski mask looks like Ivan Drago... Guess we'd better send "Rocky" over to fix this situation.

actually... I could see Sly being able to get through to putin... he would just run in shirtless speaking with an odd accent.. instantly garnering putins respect for the shirtlessness alone... but the risk with that is just having sly turn like steven segal did when we sent him in to singlehandedly defeat the russians back in 2011.



We dont want another Dennis rodman AMIright?

Well, the referendum has begun, and so far everything is going nice and quiet. Let's hope it stays that way.

I'm sure Russia will get the desired result.

Russia is moving the military before the vote is even over...

There are quite a lot of not ethnic Russians in Crimea who won't be very happy that Russia has used political turmoil in Ukraine to move their forces in and annex the region from under their feet. I wonder what will happen to them? Russia is probably preparing to quell any resistance and throw them out.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm sure Russia will get the desired result.

I wonder if it will be above 90%.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
There are quite a lot of not ethnic Russians in Crimea who won't be very happy that Russia has used political turmoil in Ukraine to move their forces in and annex the region from under their feet. I wonder what will happen to them? Russia is probably preparing to quell any resistance and throw them out.

Probably nothing. Russia is already filled to the brim with ethnic minorities, a few more won't make a difference. Especially since Ukrainians and Tatars are already the two largest existing minorities in Russia. Ukrainians are barely distinguishable from Russians, and are thus often treated as if they were Russians. Tatars are often viewed as an integral part of Russia, and their language and culture are very well protected. They even have their own autonomous state.
I am pretty sure everyone will be fine. Putin is no Stalin.

Maybe Europe should send in troops to protect the non-russians...

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The impeachment procedure violated the constitution however, which makes it invalid.

I have yet to find anything in the current constitution that would indicate that. If you did, share it with us. Otherwise, stop selling your personal opinion as fact.

Apparently, the Serbians are also active in Crimea: http://news.yahoo.com/serbian-paramilitaries-join-pro-russian-forces-crimea-080011724.html, http://inserbia.info/news/2014/03/crimea-crisis-group-of-serbs-arrived-in-sevastopol-to-support-local-self-defens-units/

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The impeachment procedure violated the constitution however, which makes it invalid.

I have yet to find anything in the current constitution that would indicate that. If you did, share it with us. Otherwise, stop selling your personal opinion as fact.

According to article 111 of the Ukrainian Constitution, the parliament can impeach the president if he commits treason or other crime. However, the February 22 vote was very hasty and did not meet the exact consitutional requirements outlined in article 111, thereby making it invalid.

Article 111. The President of Ukraine may be removed from the office
by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine in compliance with a procedure
of impeachment if he commits treason or other crime.
The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office
in compliance with a procedure of impeachment shall be initiated by the majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall establish a special ad hoc investigating commission, composed of special prosecutor and special investigators to conduct an investigation.
The conclusions and proposals of the ad hoc investigating commission shall be considered at the meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
On the ground of evidence, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall, by at least two-thirds of its constitutional membership, adopt a decision to bring charges against the President of Ukraine.
The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office
in compliance with the procedure of impeachment shall be adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by at least three-quarters of its constitutional membership upon a review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure
of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and upon a receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of treason or other crime.

Also, there is article 5, which states that no one shall usurp State power, which is exactly what the opposition did.

Article 5. Ukraine shall be a republic.
The people shall be the bearer of sovereignty and the sole source of power
in Ukraine. The people shall exercise power directly or through the state authorities and local self-government bodies.
The right to determine and change the constitutional order in Ukraine shall belong exclusively to the people and shall not be usurped by the State, its bodies, or officials.
No one shall usurp the State power.

The opposition also violated the agreement signed with Yanukovich wich would have provided for a peaceful, democratic transition instead of the coup that has ocurred now.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

I have yet to find anything in the current constitution that would indicate that. If you did, share it with us. Otherwise, stop selling your personal opinion as fact.

This is how one impeaches the Ukrainian President according to the Ukrainian Constitution. But, as I said, what is actually in the Constitution is a matter of debate, so Constitutionality is not really a concern.

The legislature wanted rid of Yanukovych, and had the power to force him from office; thanks to a rather large series of protests.

 easysauce wrote:


is it when more then 1/10 of the general population votes for them? (keep in mind, at present, there are more nazis as a % of voters in ukraine, then there were in 1933 germany where only 3% of the general population supported them)

They had over 33 % of the popular vote, not 3.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


is it when more then 1/10 of the general population votes for them? (keep in mind, at present, there are more nazis as a % of voters in ukraine, then there were in 1933 germany where only 3% of the general population supported them)

They had over 33 % of the popular vote, not 3.

fine you got me, serves me right for going off my own memory with that particular stat, correct year I was thinking of was circa 1930 where they went from under 3% to almost 20%.


"Even more dramatic was
the rise of the National Socialist NSDAP, which regi
stered landslide successes and saw its share of the
vote rocket from 2.6% to 18.3%."

the point still stands, these kind of extreme groups swell in #'s with the kind of momentum they get from things such as economic troubles.

since we are well past the 10% mark now, its not an insignificant # of people supporting the neo nazi and neo facist parties, stop claiming that its insignificant and OK that these kind of people are getting such alarming momentum/support and western powers are backing their legitimacy.

from less then 3% to more 33% in three years was very possible then in germany, from 10% to oever 30% is also very much possible today in ukraine

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
There are quite a lot of not ethnic Russians in Crimea who won't be very happy that Russia has used political turmoil in Ukraine to move their forces in and annex the region from under their feet. I wonder what will happen to them? Russia is probably preparing to quell any resistance and throw them out.

The majority (by a small margin) of people living in the Crimea are ethnic Russian, and speak Russian as a first language. The area itself only became part of the Ukranian prefecture during the 1950's under Khrushchev - I've read that there are a number of Tartars, ethnic Ukranians there (who are generally boycotting this referendum) but they are a minority. Put simply, this is another example of the 'Balkanisation' of Eastern Europe, of where lines were put down after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and they weren't always put in the right place. Now it's a giant cluster-feth trying to sort out who should live with who, under whose rule and in what way.

It's going to be a hard time for whoever 'loses' in this instance, but Russia is going to get what it wants regardless of Western threats because (really, quite rightly) we are not going to risk things escalating and us going to war. The ethnic Russians in Crimea were having a hard time of it before, now it is going to be the ethnic Tartars and Ukranians.

I know the impeachment was not constitutionally valid. I'm asking where in Ukraine constitutional law does it say that an invalid impeachment procedure results in the revoking of mandate for the parliament.

As far as I can tell, at best you could argue that Yanukovytch remains the president of Ukraine, although it probably won't take long for the current government to go through the procedure in a formal manner.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I know the impeachment was not constitutionally valid. I'm asking where in Ukraine constitutional law does it say that an invalid impeachment procedure results in the revoking of mandate for the parliament.

As far as I can tell, at best you could argue that Yanukovytch remains the president of Ukraine, although it probably won't take long for the current government to go through the procedure in a formal manner.

Oh, don't worry, the current Ukrainian government may be illegal, but the parliament itself still has its mandate. The problem that he president has to sign a law passed by the Verkhovna Rada before it becomes valid. The parliament can't make legal laws without president. So according to the Ukrainian Constitution, all laws passed by the Rada that have not been signed by Yanukovich are illegal. And the new government has issued and changed quite a lot of laws since it got into power. All those laws and decisions (and the entire government itself) are unconstitutional. Which is the reason why the (also unconstitutional) Crimean government no longer recognizes the unconstitutional government in Kiev and has issued an unconstitutional referendum, which caused the unconstitutional government in Kiev to make the unconstitutional decision to unconstitutionally dissolve the unconstitutional Crimean government.
Really, the discussion is not important anyways, no one in Ukraine actually seems to pay attention to the Constitution anymore.


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 Allod wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm sure Russia will get the desired result.

I wonder if it will be above 90%.

Well, the voting stations are closed now, and indeed, the first exit polls indicate that 93% voted in favour of Crimea becoming part of Russia
In all honesty, I suspect that most people who wanted Crimea to remain part of Ukraine stayed at home. The result of the referendum was already known before it started, as most of Crimea's population is Russian.

Nailed it!

Must be our past experience with such referenda in Austria...

results are showing about 93% in favour of joining russia.

the international observers present found no evidence of voter pressure, or any of the "at gunpoint" nonsense that the chicken littles are caterwauling about.

" “I haven’t seen anything even resembling pressure,” he said. “People themselves want to have their say.”

Many were impressed by the turnout, which appeared to be so high as to have people stand in lines to get to the ballot box in the morning. The turnout for the referendum in Crimea at 17.00 local time (15.00 GMT) was 70 per cent, the referendum’s website said.

"The lines are very long, the turnout is big indeed,” a member of the international observer mission, Bulgarian parliament member Pavel Chernev, said. "Organization and procedures are 100 percent in line with the European standards," he added.

135 international observers have arrived from 23 countries, including Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latvia and Poland, Crimean authorities said. Among those monitoring the referendum are members of the EU and national European parliaments, international law experts and human rights activists. "

If all international observers were as impartial and honorable as the Austrian ones, this doesn't surprise me at all.

But didn't Obama draw a line or something?