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 Breotan wrote:
But didn't Obama draw a line or something?

What he considers a line is what the rest of the world calls a game of Red Rover, though be it with a shrinking number of players for the US side of things.

In other news... how likely is it now that the eastern portions of Ukraine will now vote to secede and how greedy will Putin get?

 Breotan wrote:
But didn't Obama draw a line or something?

I would ask a refund for the drawing classes if I were him.

Maybe he wrote it in disappearing ink?

 Commissar-Danno wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
But didn't Obama draw a line or something?

What he considers a line is what the rest of the world calls a game of Red Rover, though be it with a shrinking number of players for the US side of things.

In other news... how likely is it now that the eastern portions of Ukraine will now vote to secede and how greedy will Putin get?

First the Ukrainians will attempt to build a legitimate defense and cut ties with the Crimea.

"Eastern Ukraine" cries foul, Russia swoops in, wrecks face, occupies, and another round of referendums goes live.

Western Ukraine tries to fight back, then it itself gets occupied, toppled, pro-Russian "legitimate" government installed. Eastern Ukraine returned sans Crimea.

Obama will be on his 27th line and 200 Russians will be sanctioned from coming to America.

End result: Obama and USA looks pathetic (in irony, the Democrats will get another President in office as warmongering Republicans calling for a stronger Commander in Chief fail to field a capable candidate, alienate war-weary populace).

China and Russia will now expand beyond their regional demesne, look to challenge American supremacy globally. America left holding the bag.

Net result: Games Workshop increases prices another 50%.

 WarOne wrote:


Net result: Games Workshop increases prices another 50%.

Now that is a real crime.

 Tyran wrote:

 WarOne wrote:


Net result: Games Workshop increases prices another 50%.

Now that is a real crime.

Don't do the crime if you cannot smack around Kirby, teabag Ward, bury C.S. Goto under a swarm of crickets, then lock them all up in a Hyperstone Maze to do the time.

Putin's playing an interesting game right now. He's lining up his next batch of chess pieces quite beautifully, and it'll be interesting to see how the West responds to the next set of moves.

Well, I am just happy the referendum went peacefully and that Crimea is now going back where it belongs. Being from Sevastopol, I have always felt Russian, never Ukrainian and I am happy that Sevastopol will now also officially be a part of Russia again. A pity I can't be there for the party
But now it is interesting how the situation in Odessa, Kharkov, Donetsk, Luhansk etc. develops, and what Putin will do there. And also if the government in Kiev is going to do anything to resolve the issues among ethnic Russians there.

 Ketara wrote:
Putin's playing an interesting game right now. He's lining up his next batch of chess pieces quite beautifully, and it'll be interesting to see how the West responds to the next set of moves.

More sanctions.

Unless the rest of Ukraine becomes a battleground with real casualties, sanctions out the Wazoo.

I sense a business opportunity. Sell the Ukrainians $10Bn worth of Japanese military hardware. We'll be the middle man. We make money. Japan quietly rearms against the Chinese by selling arms to Ukraine. Ukraine now has a modern military.

Alternatively we could arrest Justin Bieber and drop him out of a plane over St. Petersberg. If the Russians do not withdraw we'll threaten to air drop Miley Cyrus, One Direction, and R. Kelly. That should do it.

Personally Ukraine is too close to Russia. If they split up into Russia and West Ukraine thats cool. If they don't thats cool. Its their problem. Not ours.


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 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, I am just happy the referendum went peacefully and that Crimea is now going back where it belongs. Being from Sevastopol, I have always felt Russian, never Ukrainian and I am happy that Sevastopol will now also officially be a part of Russia again. A pity I can't be there for the party
But now it is interesting how the situation in Odessa, Kharkov, Donetsk, Luhansk etc. develops, and what Putin will do there. And also if the government in Kiev is going to do anything to resolve the issues among ethnic Russians there.

So tell me Rooskie are the Russians going to take Eastern Ukraine as well?

With both hands?

 Frazzled wrote:
If they split up into Russia and West Ukraine thats cool.

Yeah, nothing like splitting a country into a vassal state and a cripple that will either become a vassal in the future or remain on life support forever.

Totally cool.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If they split up into Russia and West Ukraine thats cool.

Yeah, nothing like splitting a country into a vassal state and a cripple that will either become a vassal in the future or remain on life support forever.

Totally cool.

Cool as in leave us out of it.
or we could sell them $10Bn worth of stuff.

Kirim now joined Russia. the new pro-Russian government issued an offer for any Ukrainian troops to 'swear an oath of fealthy' to the Russia

E.U. reactions are .... for me, considered 'empty threats' to the new 'Russian Empire' where Putin will one day crown himself as a new Tzar. They're broke now. the best thing they can do is to confiscate any russian assets in EU soils. but I don't think that this can hurt Russia. If there will be the next Crimean war. E.U. will lose.

May I see the flag of Kirim please.

 Lone Cat wrote:
If there will be the next Crimean war. E.U. will lose.

No it wouldn't. This is a military which struggled with Georgian air defense.

 dogma wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
If there will be the next Crimean war. E.U. will lose.

No it wouldn't. This is a military which struggled with Georgian air defense.

Whilst I'm not backing the idea that the Russians could ultimately win a war with the West (even minus the US), things have changed to an extent since Georgia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-russia-military-clout-idUSBREA1Q1YR20140227

Going back to the Nazi's. I've heard mention of them being around 10% of the population with them being strongest in the western area's of Ukraine. With the secession of the Crimea and the possible lost of the Eastern Regions in the coming months/years how much stronger as a party will they get because of the change of population (because of several million pro Russians leaving) in Ukraine? Could they double in size practically over night and actually take over the country or at least exhert enough influence?

 Ketara wrote:

Whilst I'm not backing the idea that the Russians could ultimately win a war with the West (even minus the US), things have changed to an extent since Georgia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-russia-military-clout-idUSBREA1Q1YR20140227

A fair point, though I would contend that many of the technological claims ring hollow. I expect the T-99 to be the next T-95.

We'll see how the PAK FA does.

except of course who is going to fight? Germany? They're limited by Constitution and have minimal forces.

France? How are they going to get there? With what?
UK? Same to same.
Who else?

The thought of the "EU" going on the offensive is bad comedy. Putin knows this.

 Frazzled wrote:

The thought of the "EU" going on the offensive is bad comedy. Putin knows this.

Who said anything about going on the offensive?

 Ketara wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
If there will be the next Crimean war. E.U. will lose.

No it wouldn't. This is a military which struggled with Georgian air defense.

Whilst I'm not backing the idea that the Russians could ultimately win a war with the West (even minus the US), things have changed to an extent since Georgia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-russia-military-clout-idUSBREA1Q1YR20140227

WHAT!? Big Bear Russia lost its Ostessian war against weaker Georgia? the armed forces are now 'under upgrading process' but by now. is it finalized?
I though this war will be fighting with cash as well as troops, guns ,ammo and people. EU is 'broke' right now y'know? and Russia is now a rising economy as well as China! Not counting a very large chunks of Crimean people who fully pledged its allegiance to Russia! infact. many of them are Russians (And not 'Ukrainians') so morale counts!

Actually I'm not siding with Russia nor its macchiavellian schemes to flex its muscle (or possibly annexing one more country) but i'm emphasizing on economic strengh factors as well as subjective allegiances of the crimeans (or east Ukrainians in general). unless E.U. governments do the similar military efforts the US has been doing in the WW2. they'll lost the second Crimean War.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

The thought of the "EU" going on the offensive is bad comedy. Putin knows this.

Who said anything about going on the offensive?

Because thats the only way it could occur. USSR er Russia gets a hint of "EU" troops going to Ukraine and its tanks will have reached the Polish border before you can say "European dithering."

 Commissar-Danno wrote:
Going back to the Nazi's. I've heard mention of them being around 10% of the population with them being strongest in the western area's of Ukraine. With the secession of the Crimea and the possible lost of the Eastern Regions in the coming months/years how much stronger as a party will they get because of the change of population (because of several million pro Russians leaving) in Ukraine? Could they double in size practically over night and actually take over the country or at least exhert enough influence?

They already have a large influence, but if Eastern Ukraine would also secede, they would probably grow even more in power. That is a worrying scenario.

 Frazzled wrote:
except of course who is going to fight? Germany? They're limited by Constitution and have minimal forces.

France? How are they going to get there? With what?
UK? Same to same.
Who else?

The thought of the "EU" going on the offensive is bad comedy. Putin knows this.

That is exactly what the Secretary-General of NATO also noted on Dutch television last month

Not great, but I hardly see how its "worrying".

Its not like Ukraine will turn into the next Nazi Germany and try to take over the world. Worst case scenario is they rot in their own little corner of the world and become like North Korea.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Commissar-Danno wrote:
Going back to the Nazi's. I've heard mention of them being around 10% of the population with them being strongest in the western area's of Ukraine. With the secession of the Crimea and the possible lost of the Eastern Regions in the coming months/years how much stronger as a party will they get because of the change of population (because of several million pro Russians leaving) in Ukraine? Could they double in size practically over night and actually take over the country or at least exhert enough influence?

They already have a large influence, but if Eastern Ukraine would also secede, they would probably grow even more in power. That is a worrying scenario.

Why? Please define how that would be worse than Russia now? Crony capitalism vs. crony mercantilism with dictatorial governments. Not seeing a lot of difference.

 Frazzled wrote:
except of course who is going to fight? Germany? They're limited by Constitution and have minimal forces.

France? How are they going to get there? With what?
UK? Same to same.
Who else?

The thought of the "EU" going on the offensive is bad comedy. Putin knows this.

That is exactly what the Secretary-General of NATO also noted on Dutch television last month

Yep. Which is fine. NATO is not an offensive organization. The EU is a commercial organization.
What they could do is embargo the natural gas. But that would take iron.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not great, but I hardly see how its "worrying".

Its not like Ukraine will turn into the next Nazi Germany and try to take over the world. Worst case scenario is they rot in their own little corner of the world and become like North Korea.

I don't think the Ukrainians have any plans for world conquest, but it could be worrying for ethnic minorities in Western Ukraine. I don't think it will turn into a 1943 style genocide, but they could be seriously deprived of their rights.

having another north korea is very worrying...


having another north korea, on the border with europe is even more so...

not to mention, the western support/blind eye towards this lends it legitimacy, and means that other similar groups in nearby countries such as greece will also be encouraged...

its a total powderkeg, yes it is worrying.

^ No matter how many tanks and armored vehicles they sold to Royal Thai Army (the organization that actually favors Fascism). Urkraine cannot retake Kirim without the outsider's help.
Actually Kirim is NOT belonged to the 'original' Ukraine in the first place. Nikita Kruschev gave Kirim to 'Soviet of Ukraine' for some reasons. possibly the politics inside the Communist Party of Russia... where he must do everything to erode/eliminate Stalinist (and traces of it).

Who knows why Kruschev gave 'The Soviet of Ukraine' an entire Crimea peninsular?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not great, but I hardly see how its "worrying".

Its not like Ukraine will turn into the next Nazi Germany and try to take over the world. Worst case scenario is they rot in their own little corner of the world and become like North Korea.

I don't think the Ukrainians have any plans for world conquest, but it could be worrying for ethnic minorities in Western Ukraine. I don't think it will turn into a 1943 style genocide, but they could be seriously deprived of their rights.

I think the non Russian populations in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine have a lot more to worry about, and right now.


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 Lone Cat wrote:
^ No matter how many tanks and armored vehicles they sold to Royal Thai Army (the organization that actually favors Fascism). Urkraine cannot retake Kirim without the outsider's help.
Actually Kirim is NOT belonged to the 'original' Ukraine in the first place. Nikita Kruschev gave Kirim to 'Soviet of Ukraine' for some reasons. possibly the politics inside the Communist Party of Russia... where he must do everything to erode/eliminate Stalinist (and traces of it).

Who knows why Kruschev gave 'The Soviet of Ukraine' an entire Crimea peninsular?

Agreed, but thats just Step One. Step Two is Eastern Ukraine.

OP

I think NATO and the EU have over played their hand in trying to expand their respective organizations into the Ukraine by supporting the government which ousted the pro russian president. This is a classic power play by the west, nothing more. What we're basically saying is that the people who want to have a democratic vote to leave a country they do not identify with are evil purely because they are Russian. Whilst those Ukrainians whose only motivation, like every other eatern european country, is hatred and fear of russia are the good guys. Ukraine wants military protection. It does not want human rights, democracy. The media reporting on this event almost makes you sick. Its okay for Kosovo to vote to leave Serbia but not for Crimea to leave the Ukraine? Its okay to dismember an artificial state like Yugoslavia but its not okay to dismember an artificial state like the Ukraine. In fact, yugoslavias borders were actually older than the Ukraines which only came into existence in 1954 and were massively different before WW2. This is a farcical display of hypocrisy and undignified venom from Western leaders. What gives them the right to say they are on the side of the angels and that the Ukrainian people are innocents chanting "Mhysa". They don't care about Ukrainians or democracy or human rights or whats just or peace. They care about enhancing Western power at the expense of Russia; which they've been doing for years. Oh, and they have no problem about once again telling bare faced lies to their own people and demonizing the enemy. Like how Senator Kerry says you can't behave in a 19th century manner and invade a country on false pretexts. WTF do you think Iraq was? Those weapons of mass destruction? Sadamn a threat to peace and a power. Its actually insulting and undemocratic that they are prepared to use manipulative tactics and determined to cast themselves and the Ukrainians as the legions of christ assembled against hell. Its pathetic.

Plus, in pure machiavellian terms. We do not need the Ukraine in NATO or the EU. We have most of central and eastern europe along with the baltics. These are in NATO and secure. So what if russia maintains parts of the former USSR republics? It changes nothing because they already had the Black Sea Fleet there. This is a bridge too far. They have tried to swallow up the Ukraine and Putin has used force. Hes called the West out on its bluff and eastern european countries who were promised military protection are realising that NATO might not be willing to engage militarily with russia in a great power war for their sake. These over reaching idiots have humiliated themselves and Western power with their own impotence and made themselves look weak. They should never have forced the issue of Ukraine entering Europe as it undermines the assurances which were given to other eastern european countries who will (wrongly) perceive a decline in Western power. Now they've put themselves in a situation where they are doing nothing effectual to stop Russia dismembering the ukraine. Keeping Yanokovich in power was safer instead of caving in to pressure from dumb nationalists in the west of the country. I thought the EU was about removing that degenerate disease from human society not encouraging it.