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 MetalOxide wrote:
Well, Russia and Ukraine are added to my list of places I would never visit.

That's a shame. Russia has a lot of places worth visiting. Kiev is worth a visit too, once things have calmed down there again.

I would like to visit St. Petersberg.

I'd like to visit all of Italy. Food of the gods!

Red Square is pretty cool.

 Frazzled wrote:
I would like to visit St. Petersberg.

I'd like to visit all of Italy. Food of the gods!

Their gelatos are definitely food of the gods.

 Tyran wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I would like to visit St. Petersberg.

I'd like to visit all of Italy. Food of the gods!

Their gelatos are definitely food of the gods.

No, even a god could not have envisioned food so divine as the best Italian gelato.
Italian food is best food.

Back on topic: Ukraine, don't do this, don't do this, you'll only be hurting yourselves:
http://rt.com/news/urkaine-cis-visa-demilitarized-917/

 Iron_Captain wrote:
n't do this, you'll only be hurting yourselves:
http://rt.com/news/urkaine-cis-visa-demilitarized-917/

Yeah... about that.

They ain't getting nuth'n from the UN.

As for asking "Russians" to apply for visa... yikes! What makes a Ukrainian citizen? o.O

So... Iron_Captain, if you truly believe that Crimea really want to be annexed into Russian... why won't Russia let Chechnya go?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I would like to visit St. Petersberg.

I'd like to visit all of Italy. Food of the gods!

Their gelatos are definitely food of the gods.

No, even a god could not have envisioned food so divine as the best Italian gelato.
Italian food is best food.

Back on topic: Ukraine, don't do this, don't do this, you'll only be hurting yourselves:
http://rt.com/news/urkaine-cis-visa-demilitarized-917/

Sounds like a plan. If Russians want to act like foreigners, get a passport or get out.

 whembly wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
n't do this, you'll only be hurting yourselves:
http://rt.com/news/urkaine-cis-visa-demilitarized-917/

Yeah... about that.

They ain't getting nuth'n from the UN.

As for asking "Russians" to apply for visa... yikes! What makes a Ukrainian citizen? o.O

So... Iron_Captain, if you truly believe that Crimea really want to be annexed into Russian... why won't Russia let Chechnya go?

Ukraine is also very much dependent on Russia, lots of Ukrainians in the East work in Russia, so leaving the CIS would hurt Ukraine a lot.

As to Chechnya, the situation there is completely different. The short version of the story is that the Chechen seperatists are radical islamists, want to install Sharia law and opress their people and they have no major world power backing them up.
There is also the matter that Chechnya has been a part of Russia since 1500, so one could consider it an integral part of Russia.
On the other hand, the Chechen people have been resisting Russian rule since the moment they were conquered (and even before that) and if they hadn't been terrorist scum, I would have been of the opinion that they should get their independence if they want it so much.
However, seeing what they did at Beslan, my opinion towards them is best not shared here on Dakka.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

However, seeing what they did at Beslan, my opinion towards them is best not shared here on Dakka.

Don't get me wrong... especially after Beslan, Zero feths Is Given.

 whembly wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

However, seeing what they did at Beslan, my opinion towards them is best not shared here on Dakka.

Don't get me wrong... especially after Beslan, Zero feths Is Given.

Would you care to clarify that statement?

He's agreeing with you.

 Frazzled wrote:
He's agreeing with you.

Ah, I see. I almost read that wrong

 Frazzled wrote:
He's agreeing with you.

Yup.

I really didn't care about it in general. But, since the aftermath of Beslan... I don't care about anything what the separatist want. To me, they're scum of the earth. And that's give "scum" a bad name.

My earlier point was that Putin justified the annexation because Crimea apparently wants to... (whether it's legit or not). Chechnya wanted out...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
He's agreeing with you.

Ah, I see. I almost read that wrong

No worries... I realize english isn't your first language (but, you're doing exceptionally well). I only know english and can read a dead languange in ancient Latin and Attic Greek (not very well either).

To get a better idea, go here*: Zero Feth Given

*not posting the images as it breaks the swear word policy here at dakka.

 whembly wrote:
No worries... I realize english isn't your first language (but, you're doing exceptionally well). I only know english and can read a dead languange in ancient Latin and Attic Greek (not very well either).

To get a better idea, go here*: Zero Feth Given

*not posting the images as it breaks the swear word policy here at dakka.

Thanks. I have lived in the UK for a while, but English is still not my native language, and it is sometimes still hard. Especially slang terms and memes etc. I really thought it meant something quite different Those pictures are funny.

Interesting. Now Estonia is worried. However Estonia is part of NATO. Would Germany go to war to defend Estonia if "undisclosed troops wearing green" suddenly appeared in that country?

Also interesting out. If "green troops" appear in Ukraine and RUssia says no Russian troops there, can the US arclight them and say they're just killing terrorists?

1) Purely personal opinion/conviction: Apart from maybe the UK, France and Poland no EU country would go to war with anybody for whatever reason save self-defense. I honestly believe our pledges of mutual assistance aren't worth the paper they're written on once the gak hits the fan.

NATO actions are a different story, because those mean that 'Murica will be coming over and kick ass. Much easier to be brave when you know your big brother is backing you up.

2) If Ukraine asks them to, sure.

Tit-for-tat... Russia bars some US offices from traveling within their country.

McCain always did have a sense of humor:

I guess this means my spring break in Siberia is off, Gazprom stock is lost & secret bank account in Moscow is frozen http://t.co/TgwZneD4HY

— John McCain (@SenJohnMcCain) March 20, 2014

The "Hostile Thrust":
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-hits-back-own-sanctions-u-hostile-thrust-160038686.html;_ylt=AwrBJR.1FStT0i0AfvrQtDMD

Things have seemingly gotten quiet... but the powder keg may be just ready to blow...

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-surround-crimea-airbase-issue-ultimatum-125808242.html;_ylt=AwrBEiLBjy1TmV0A.wDQtDMD

Russia has also stationed nearly a quarter million of it's troops on the rest of the Ukranian border and appear as if they can invade at any time. About a third of the Ukranian military is "trapped" in the Crimea. If Russia wanted to push in, nothing would stop them right now.

 Allod wrote:

2) If Ukraine asks them to, sure.

That's, ultimately, the crux of the issue. Absent permission that is granted by a Ukrainian government that is recognized as being legitimate, any US intervention is really just invasion.

 Frazzled wrote:

Also interesting out. If "green troops" appear in Ukraine and RUssia says no Russian troops there, can the US arclight them and say they're just killing terrorists?

During a military exercise the US is alleged to have killed over 300 so called "green troops". In response, the US has said "They were unmarked, so we assumed they were target dummies."

So... Iron_Captain, if you truly believe that Crimea really want to be annexed into Russian... why won't Russia let Chechnya go?

The hypocrisy is so bad you'd laugh if their weren't lives at stake. Russia thinks that Crimea has the right to go when it has no history while Russia keeps Chechnya firmly under control. The US cries crocodile tears about international law and sovereignty of nations even though the US claims to be upholding international law by bombing Libya and having its leader executed.

Has anyone heard what the Russians are doing with the Ukranian soldiers that they've been capturing?

Are they releasing them back to the Ukraine, holding them as POW's, or are they just making them "dissapear" since the Russians aren't broadcasting themselves as Russians?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26681653

Interesting. So to all those people claiming that the Russian intimidation will have rigged/swung the vote, there was previously a Crimean President democratically elected on that platform. And then his position was abolished by the Ukrainian Parliament.

Starting to sound to me like Crimea's wanted to be Russian for a long time now.

 Ketara wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26681653

Interesting. So to all those people claiming that the Russian intimidation will have rigged/swung the vote, there was previously a Crimean President democratically elected on that platform. And then his position was abolished by the Ukrainian Parliament.

Starting to sound to me like Crimea's wanted to be Russian for a long time now.

Don't think anyone's claiming there isn't a significant pro-Russian segment of Crimea, but you're an easy mark if you think the fake referendum was anything other than astroturfing. 56% of Crimea is ethnic Russian, but there was an 85% turn out with 95% voting for Joining with Russia rather than independance - that means not only would every single person with Russian heratige have to get out and vote for joining with Russia, but significant majority of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars (who have zero love for Russia) happily voted to become ethnic minorities in Russia. No, it was a poorly and obviously rigged referendum.

 Maddermax wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26681653

Interesting. So to all those people claiming that the Russian intimidation will have rigged/swung the vote, there was previously a Crimean President democratically elected on that platform. And then his position was abolished by the Ukrainian Parliament.

Starting to sound to me like Crimea's wanted to be Russian for a long time now.

Don't think anyone's claiming there isn't a significant pro-Russian segment of Crimea, but you're an easy mark if you think the fake referendum was anything other than astroturfing. 56% of Crimea is ethnic Russian, but there was an 85% turn out with 95% voting for Joining with Russia rather than independance - that means not only would every single person with Russian heratige have to get out and vote for joining with Russia, but significant majority of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars (who have zero love for Russia) happily voted to become ethnic minorities in Russia. No, it was a poorly and obviously rigged referendum.

I've also heard that a significant portion of the population was actually barred from being allowed to vote...

While this wasn't quite as obviously fudged as Kim Jong Un's most recent election, it was still pretty clearly a dirty vote.

 Maddermax wrote:

Don't think anyone's claiming there isn't a significant pro-Russian segment of Crimea, but you're an easy mark if you think the fake referendum was anything other than astroturfing. 56% of Crimea is ethnic Russian, but there was an 85% turn out with 95% voting for Joining with Russia rather than independance - that means not only would every single person with Russian heratige have to get out and vote for joining with Russia, but significant majority of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars (who have zero love for Russia) happily voted to become ethnic minorities in Russia. No, it was a poorly and obviously rigged referendum.

Just over 60% of Crimean residents are ethnic Russians, and ~24% are ethnic Ukrainians; and ethnic Ukrainians would not necessarily support the notion that Crimea should be a part of Ukraine.

As to the turnout rate, no one really knows. It is somewhere between 78% and 85%. But, assuming 85%, it isn't hard to believe that a region which has long rebelled against Ukrainian governance would predominantly vote for Russian annexation.

 dogma wrote:

 Maddermax wrote:

Don't think anyone's claiming there isn't a significant pro-Russian segment of Crimea, but you're an easy mark if you think the fake referendum was anything other than astroturfing. 56% of Crimea is ethnic Russian, but there was an 85% turn out with 95% voting for Joining with Russia rather than independance - that means not only would every single person with Russian heratige have to get out and vote for joining with Russia, but significant majority of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars (who have zero love for Russia) happily voted to become ethnic minorities in Russia. No, it was a poorly and obviously rigged referendum.

Just over 60% of Crimean residents are ethnic Russians, and ~24% are ethnic Ukrainians; and ethnic Ukrainians would not necessarily support the notion that Crimea should be a part of Ukraine.

As to the turnout rate, no one really knows. It is somewhere between 78% and 85%. But, assuming 85%, it isn't hard to believe that a region which has long rebelled against Ukrainian governance would predominantly vote for Russian annexation.

And not for "independance" which was also supposedly an option? No, bad astro turfing at best. I could believe a vote to join Russia might succeed, that is a possibility, but the vote that was taken, because of both the manner it was conducted and the highly dubious results , should not have any amount of bearing on the legitimacy of what I has happened, and in my opinion actually detracts further from any legitimacy Russia's actions might have had, making Putin seem Stalin-esque.

I'm not even sure it was an attempt at astroturfing. Usually, elections with an outcome of 90%+ in favor of one option are not supposed to fool anybody, they are supposed to show all those who did not vote, were prevented from voting or voted differently that they are totally powerless. They are a demonstration of control, and nothing more.

Furthermore, yes, it's probably true that the Crimean population would even have voted to unite with Russia in fair and free elections; what Putin showed was that he doesn't need to have those and nobody can do anything about it. It's simply a huge middle finger to the west and all the dissidents in Russia and Crimea.

 Ketara wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26681653

Interesting. So to all those people claiming that the Russian intimidation will have rigged/swung the vote, there was previously a Crimean President democratically elected on that platform. And then his position was abolished by the Ukrainian Parliament.

Starting to sound to me like Crimea's wanted to be Russian for a long time now.

Since 1991 to be precise

 Maddermax wrote:
that means not only would every single person with Russian heratige have to get out and vote for joining with Russia, but significant majority of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars (who have zero love for Russia).

That is not true. There sure are plenty of Tatars who have little love for Russia due to historic events, but many other Tatars were supportive of joining Russia. But don't expect to see those in Western media Some Tatars boycotted the referendum, but that was only a part of the Tatar community and the Tatar community is already only a small part of the Crimean population.
Some ethnic Ukrainians were of course against, but most Crimean Ukrainians speak Russian as their native language and consider themselves as much Russian as Ukrainian, if not more Russian. It is not unlikely most of those Ukrainians voted in favour of joining Russia, especially considering the economic benefits joining Russia would bring and the messy state that Ukraine is in.

 Maddermax wrote:

And not for "independance" which was also supposedly an option?

Not in the referendum. Crimea declared itself an independent entity before that.

 Maddermax wrote:

No, bad astro turfing at best. I could believe a vote to join Russia might succeed, that is a possibility, but the vote that was taken, because of both the manner it was conducted and the highly dubious results , should not have any amount of bearing on the legitimacy of what I has happened, and in my opinion actually detracts further from any legitimacy Russia's actions might have had, making Putin seem Stalin-esque.

That's gibberish. Please rephrase your argument.

I wonder how many people have business in Crimea but are station in Ukraine. Or what money the Ukrainian government has put into Crimea.