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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Let's rethink this Aid Package we're coming up with in the US goes on hold. If this is true I would urge Putin to "get ta stepping" in Eastern Ukraine. If Obama get frisky I fax a copy to him with a reminder of "your supporting these guys right?"

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 easysauce wrote:
the flyer is confirmed by numerous, reputable cources now, far from sketchy, and I fully expect the west to ignore or cover it up with heaps of lies, mostly along the lines of "the russians did it"

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.585897

http://www.businessinsider.com/flyers-in-ukraine-demand-jews-to-register-2014-4

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Flyers-call-for-Jews-to-register-with-pro-Russians-in-Ukrainian-city-348695

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/04/17/3428041/someone-is-ordering-eastern-ukraines-jews-to-register-with-separatist-group/

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/jews-ordered-to-register-in-donetsk-ukraine/2014/04/17/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/17/see-the-shock-flyer-distributed-to-some-ukrainian-jews-calling-on-them-to-register-with-separatist-government/

Ummmm..... If the reports are that the leaflets are demanding that Jewish citizens register with the separatist pro-Russians why would the West ignore it or cover it up?

 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

 easysauce wrote:
USA today and other israeli papers confirm that the leaflets are factual,

while you may think no one is stupid enough to pull it off,

let me re iterate:

Over 10% of popular votes in the ukrain went to a neo-nazi party.

the % has gone UP since then, and several other groups (right sector, ect) have allied into the neo nazi/antisemitic/ect movements that are gaining traction, not just in ukraine, but it lots of europe.


Svoboda has top positions in the new coup placed government, and as I have been saying for almost 5 months not, it is not by accident.

That we saw so many open supporters of neo-nazism in the maiden riots, and literally, NO ONE opposing them, should speak volumes to the amount of support they have. Neo nazis should be run out of town like KKK members, if you dont run them out, its acceptance of them.

Unfortunately thats what we have now in ukraine, total acceptance of these parties/groups like right sector, and a grown amount of direct support for them.

not ONLY that, but western media, governments and money, has directly supported these people...


so, NOW will people start taking this seriously? I recall an absurd amount of hand waivium in this thread about how having nazi parites gain legitimacy and popular support is somthing to be totally ignored as it doesnt matter.

Is registering jews, killing civies, robbing civies, threatenting to cleans ethnic russians, "nazi type stuff" enough for you to at least NOT want to be supporting these people?


I knew that Svoboda was anti Semitic, but that is a group from West Ukraine, and part of the original illegitimate uprising, hence one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the new regime. These pamphlets are said to be coming from the Pro-Russian Eastern Ukrainians. It doesn't make sense to me. Seams a Red Herring. I would need to see one of the actual West Ukrainian Governors say "Yes this is us", but so far they have all denied it.

This is something that I could type up and print on my computer, there is no signature, no nothing. I'm calling Shenanigans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/17 20:26:52


"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Andrew1975 wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
USA today and other israeli papers confirm that the leaflets are factual,

while you may think no one is stupid enough to pull it off,

let me re iterate:

Over 10% of popular votes in the ukrain went to a neo-nazi party.

the % has gone UP since then, and several other groups (right sector, ect) have allied into the neo nazi/antisemitic/ect movements that are gaining traction, not just in ukraine, but it lots of europe.


Svoboda has top positions in the new coup placed government, and as I have been saying for almost 5 months not, it is not by accident.

That we saw so many open supporters of neo-nazism in the maiden riots, and literally, NO ONE opposing them, should speak volumes to the amount of support they have. Neo nazis should be run out of town like KKK members, if you dont run them out, its acceptance of them.

Unfortunately thats what we have now in ukraine, total acceptance of these parties/groups like right sector, and a grown amount of direct support for them.

not ONLY that, but western media, governments and money, has directly supported these people...


so, NOW will people start taking this seriously? I recall an absurd amount of hand waivium in this thread about how having nazi parites gain legitimacy and popular support is somthing to be totally ignored as it doesnt matter.

Is registering jews, killing civies, robbing civies, threatenting to cleans ethnic russians, "nazi type stuff" enough for you to at least NOT want to be supporting these people?


I knew that Svoboda was anti Semitic, but that is a group from West Ukraine, and part of the original illegitimate uprising, hence one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the new regime. These pamphlets are said to be coming from the Pro-Russian Eastern Ukrainians. It doesn't make sense to me. Seams a Red Herring. I would need to see one of the actual West Ukrainian Governors say "Yes this is us", but so far they have all denied it.


And the Jewish community had a signed statement sent out stating that they were happy to be in the Ukraine, to be Ukrainian and they have not felt threatened or their position imperilled.

   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






That flyer could be real, antisemitism is still very much alive in Ukraine. It is long been that way. Within living memory, jews were still being persecuted and killed in pogroms.
Antisemite are not unique to Western Ukraine either, altough they are by far the most numerous there.
In any case, if the Russians come in they will put a stop to it. I am not so sure the Kievan regime would do the same...

Of course it could also be propaganda from Kiev aimed at demonising the protesters.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That flyer could be real, antisemitism is still very much alive in Ukraine. It is long been that way. Within living memory, jews were still being persecuted and killed in pogroms.
Antisemite are not unique to Western Ukraine either, altough they are by far the most numerous there.
In any case, if the Russians come in they will put a stop to it. I am not so sure the Kievan regime would do the same...

Of course it could also be propaganda from Kiev aimed at demonising the protesters.


Or it could be Russian propaganda?
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
That flyer could be real, antisemitism is still very much alive in Ukraine. It is long been that way. Within living memory, jews were still being persecuted and killed in pogroms.
Antisemite are not unique to Western Ukraine either, altough they are by far the most numerous there.
In any case, if the Russians come in they will put a stop to it. I am not so sure the Kievan regime would do the same...

Of course it could also be propaganda from Kiev aimed at demonising the protesters.


Or it could be Russian propaganda?
Could be, but that would be highly unlikely. It could be used by the Russians as an excuse for invading, but that seems very, very far-fetched.
Russia supports the protesters, spreading negative propaganda about them seems contrary to that.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
That flyer could be real, antisemitism is still very much alive in Ukraine. It is long been that way. Within living memory, jews were still being persecuted and killed in pogroms.
Antisemite are not unique to Western Ukraine either, altough they are by far the most numerous there.
In any case, if the Russians come in they will put a stop to it. I am not so sure the Kievan regime would do the same...

Of course it could also be propaganda from Kiev aimed at demonising the protesters.


Or it could be Russian propaganda?


It must be a weird form of propaganda then, that makes your own side look bad and anti-semitic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/17 21:43:45


 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
That flyer could be real, antisemitism is still very much alive in Ukraine. It is long been that way. Within living memory, jews were still being persecuted and killed in pogroms.
Antisemite are not unique to Western Ukraine either, altough they are by far the most numerous there.
In any case, if the Russians come in they will put a stop to it. I am not so sure the Kievan regime would do the same...

Of course it could also be propaganda from Kiev aimed at demonising the protesters.


Or it could be Russian propaganda?


It must be a weird form of propaganda then, that makes your own side look bad and anti-semitic.


Or the news people screwed up



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

So the best way to stop the anti-Semites that want to be part of Russia is to let them become part of Russia?
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

 d-usa wrote:
So the best way to stop the anti-Semites that want to be part of Russia is to let them become part of Russia?


Well, we don't know if the pro Russians are really anti-semites. We know for a fact there were proto-nazis in the western Ukraine radicals that overthrew the government.

We know an anti semetic letter was passed out in eastern Ukraine, but who passed it out is in question. Its pretty unofficial looking, has no signature and everyone is denying it. Could be a red herring or even a double red herring. From my time spent in Russia I can say that many Eastern Europeans are not terribly fond of Jewish people, so the could be and probably are anti Semites on both sides.

The question really is if this is a legitimate thing that is actually happening or some kind of hoax.

"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Andrew1975 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
So the best way to stop the anti-Semites that want to be part of Russia is to let them become part of Russia?


Well, we don't know if the pro Russians are really anti-semites. We know for a fact there were proto-nazis in the western Ukraine radicals that overthrew the government.

We know an anti semetic letter was passed out in eastern Ukraine, but who passed it out is in question. Its pretty unofficial looking, has no signature and everyone is denying it.




 whembly wrote:

The leaflets bore the name of Denis Pushilin, who identified himself as chairman of "Donetsk's temporary government," and were distributed near the Donetsk synagogue and other areas, according to the report.

Pushilin acknowledged the flyers were distributed by his organization but he disavowed their content, according to the web site Jews of Kiev, Ynet reported.


So yeah, everyone except the dude supposedly in charge of the pro-Russian rebels.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/17 23:12:41


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Andrew1975 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
So the best way to stop the anti-Semites that want to be part of Russia is to let them become part of Russia?


Well, we don't know if the pro Russians are really anti-semites. We know for a fact there were proto-nazis in the western Ukraine radicals that overthrew the government.

We know an anti semetic letter was passed out in eastern Ukraine, but who passed it out is in question. Its pretty unofficial looking, has no signature and everyone is denying it.




 whembly wrote:

The leaflets bore the name of Denis Pushilin, who identified himself as chairman of "Donetsk's temporary government," and were distributed near the Donetsk synagogue and other areas, according to the report.

Pushilin acknowledged the flyers were distributed by his organization but he disavowed their content, according to the web site Jews of Kiev, Ynet reported.


So yeah, everyone except the dude supposedly in charge of the pro-Russian rebels.


"The flyers were official-looking documents that carried what was presented as Pushilin’s signature, but the news site tvrain.ru on Wednesday quoted Pushilin as denying any connection to the flyers, calling them a provocation."

"In an interview with Ukrainian press, Pushilin confirmed that the flyers, marked with the emblem of his organization, were really distributed in Donetsk. But unlike various English translations, in the original interview with Ukrainian media, Pushilin not only rejected the content of the flyers, but also denied that his organization was behind their printing. “Some idiots yesterday were giving out these flyers in targeted areas,” he said, claiming that he had never himself used the “people’s governor” title the flyer bestows on him. Pushilin did not suggest who else may have been handing out the anti-Semetic flyers, but went on to criticize the original site for posting it online. "

This is what I find fishy about this situation. I have read about 10 different articles...they all tell a different story. The sheet has a signature, the sheet doesn't have a signature, Pushlin acknowledges, Pushlin has no idea. All the accounts have different FACTS.....which is just very odd.

I'm still calling Shenanigans.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/18 00:21:17


"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Afaik, Pushilin has vehemently denied any connection to the flyers. I heard him saying it myself on TV. The only thing he acknowledged was that the flyers were distributed in Donyetsk (but not by his organisation). Of course, some Western and Ukrainian media had to make a 'liberal translation' of his words.
I agree with Andrew above here. It smells like dirty tricks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/18 00:42:38


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2

Pretty interesting Video.

One question I do have is what is with all the masks. It makes me think these could be Russian operatives in disguise.

"The pact calls for all illegal armed groups to be disarmed, all illegally seized buildings to be returned to their legitimate owners and all occupied public spaces to be vacated. It promises amnesty for protesters who leave buildings and give up their weapons, apart from those convicted of capital crimes."

I'd love for Putin to say this includes the current reigning government of Ukraine just for the LOLs.

"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/590491.page

As soon as authority breaks down the fringe takes control.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Are Russians still trying to annex Alaska?



Pro Tip: You think Americans in general are loaded with guns on the street? Lemme tell ya something... Alaskans are armed to the teeth.

*My pa lived there over 30 years... you should see their personal armoury .

Besides... Bullwinkle will trample anyone.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

Just a little article for all the Russian and Putin bashers out there.

http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-u-made-putin-problem-worse-185958789.html

Its a bit long so I'll put it in the spoiler

Spoiler:
WASHINGTON AND NEW YORK (Reuters) - In September 2001, as the U.S. reeled from the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Vladimir Putin supported Washington's imminent invasion of Afghanistan in ways that would have been inconceivable during the Cold War.

He agreed that U.S. planes carrying humanitarian aid could fly through Russian air space. He said the U.S. military could use airbases in former Soviet republics in Central Asia. And he ordered his generals to brief their U.S. counterparts on their own ill-fated 1980s occupation of Afghanistan.

During Putin's visit to President George W. Bush's Texas ranch two months later, the U.S. leader, speaking at a local high school, declared his Russian counterpart "a new style of leader, a reformer…, a man who's going to make a huge difference in making the world more peaceful, by working closely with the United States."

For a moment, it seemed, the distrust and antipathy of the Cold War were fading.

Then, just weeks later, Bush announced that the United States was withdrawing from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, so that it could build a system in Eastern Europe to protect NATO allies and U.S. bases from Iranian missile attack. In a nationally televised address, Putin warned that the move would undermine arms control and nonproliferation efforts.

"This step has not come as a surprise to us," Putin said. "But we believe this decision to be mistaken."

The sequence of events early in Washington's relationship with Putin reflects a dynamic that has persisted through the ensuing 14 years and the current crisis in Ukraine: U.S. actions, some intentional and some not, sparking an overreaction from an aggrieved Putin.

As Russia masses tens of thousands of troops along the Russian-Ukrainian border, Putin is thwarting what the Kremlin says is an American plot to surround Russia with hostile neighbors. Experts said he is also promoting "Putinism" - a conservative, ultra-nationalist form of state capitalism - as a global alternative to Western democracy.

NOT PAYING ATTENTION?

It's also a dynamic that some current and former U.S. officials said reflects an American failure to recognize that while the Soviet Union is gone as an ideological enemy, Russia has remained a major power that demands the same level of foreign policy attention as China and other large nations - a relationship that should not just be a means to other ends, but an end in itself.

"I just don't think we were really paying attention," said James F. Collins, who served as the U.S. ambassador to Moscow in the late 1990s. The bilateral relationship "was seen as not a big deal."

Putin was never going to be an easy partner. He is a Russian nationalist with authoritarian tendencies who, like his Russian predecessors for centuries, harbors a deep distrust of the West, according to senior U.S. officials. Much of his world view was formed as a KGB officer in the twilight years of the Cold War and as a government official in the chaotic post-Soviet Russia of the 1990s, which Putin and many other Russians view as a period when the United States repeatedly took advantage of Russian weakness.

Since becoming Russia's president in 2000, Putin has made restoring Russia's strength - and its traditional sphere of influence - his central goal. He has also cemented his hold on power, systematically quashed dissent and used Russia's energy supplies as an economic billy club against its neighbors. Aided by high oil prices and Russia's United Nations Security Council veto, Putin has perfected the art of needling American presidents, at times obstructing U.S. policies.

Officials from the administrations of Presidents Bush and Barack Obama said American officials initially overestimated their potential areas of cooperation with Putin. Then, through a combination of overconfidence, inattention and occasional clumsiness, Washington contributed to a deep spiral in relations with Moscow.

COMMON CAUSE

Bush and Putin's post-2001 camaraderie foundered on a core dispute: Russia's relationship with its neighbors. In November 2002, Bush backed NATO's invitation to seven nations - including former Soviet republics Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - to begin talks to join the Western alliance. In 2004, with Bush as a driving force, the seven Eastern European nations joined NATO.

Putin and other Russian officials asked why NATO continued to grow when the enemy it was created to fight, the Soviet Union, had ceased to exist. And they asked what NATO expansion would do to counter new dangers, such as terrorism and proliferation.

"This purely mechanical expansion does not let us face the current threats," Putin said, "and cannot allow us to prevent such things as the terrorist attacks in Madrid or restore stability in Afghanistan."

Thomas E. Graham, who served as Bush's senior director for Russia on the National Security Council, said a larger effort should have been made to create a new post-Soviet, European security structure that replaced NATO and included Russia.

"What we should have been aiming for - and what we should be aiming for at this point," Graham said, "is a security structure that's based on three pillars: the United States, a more or less unified Europe, and Russia."

Graham said small, incremental attempts to test Russian intentions in the early 2000s in Afghanistan, for example, would have been low-risk ways to gauge Putin's sincerity. "We never tested Putin," Graham said. "Our policy never tested Putin to see whether he was really committed to a different type of relationship."

But Vice President Dick Cheney, Senator John McCain and other conservatives, as well as hawkish Democrats, remained suspicious of Russia and eager to expand NATO. They argued that Moscow should not be given veto power over which nations could join the alliance, and that no American president should rebuff demands from Eastern European nations to escape Russian dominance.

DEMOCRACY IN OUR TIME

Another core dispute between Bush and Putin related to democracy. What Bush and other American officials saw as democracy spreading across the former Soviet bloc, Putin saw as pro-American regime change.

The 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq, without U.N. authorization and over the objections of France, Germany and Russia, was a turning point for Putin. He said the war made a mockery of American claims of promoting democracy abroad and upholding international law.

Putin was also deeply skeptical of U.S. efforts to nurture democracy in the former Soviet bloc, where the State Department and American nonprofit groups provided training and funds to local civil-society groups. In public speeches, he accused the United States of meddling.

In late 2003, street protests in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, known as the Rose Revolution, led to the election of a pro-Western leader. Four months later, street protests in Ukraine that became known as the Orange Revolution resulted in a pro-Western president taking office there.

Putin saw both developments as American-backed plots and slaps in the face, so soon after his assistance in Afghanistan, according to senior U.S. officials.

In 2006, Bush and Putin's sparring over democracy intensified. In a press conference at the first G-8 summit hosted by Russia, the two presidents had a testy exchange. Bush said that the United States was promoting freedom in Iraq, which was engulfed in violence. Putin openly mocked him.

"We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy as they have in Iraq," Putin said, smiling as the audience erupted into laughter, "I will tell you quite honestly."

Bush tried to laugh off the remark. "Just wait," he replied, referring to Iraq.

A PITSTOP IN MOSCOW?

Graham said the Bush administration telegraphed in small but telling ways that other foreign countries, particularly Iraq, took precedence over the bilateral relationship with Moscow.

In 2006, for example, the White House asked the Kremlin for permission for Bush to make a refueling stop in Moscow on his way to an Asia-Pacific summit meeting. But it made clear that Bush was not looking to meet with Putin, whom he would see on the sidelines of the summit.

After Russian diplomats complained, Graham was sent to Moscow to determine if Putin really wanted a meeting and to make clear that if there was one, it would be substance-free.

In the end, the two presidents met and agreed to ask their underlings to work on a nonproliferation package.

"When the Russian team came to Washington in December 2006, in a fairly high-level ... group, we didn't have anything to offer," Graham said. "We hadn't had any time to think about it. We were still focused on Iraq."

Graham said that the Bush administration's approach slighted Moscow. "We missed some opportunities in the Bush administration's initial years to put this on a different track," Graham said. "And then later on, some of our actions, intentional or not, sent a clear message to Moscow that we didn't care."

THREE TRAIN WRECKS

Bush's relationship with Putin unraveled in 2008. In February, Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia with the support of the United States - a step that Russia, a longtime supporter of Serbia, had been trying to block diplomatically for more than a decade. In April, Bush won support at a NATO summit in Bucharest for the construction of a missile defense system in Eastern Europe.

Bush called on NATO to give Ukraine and Georgia a so-called Membership Action Plan, a formal process that would put each on a path toward eventually joining the alliance. France and Germany blocked him and warned that further NATO expansion would spur an aggressive Russian stance when Moscow regained power.

In the end, the alliance simply issued a statement saying the two countries "will become members of NATO." That compromise risked the worst of both worlds - antagonizing Moscow without giving Kiev and Tbilisi a roadmap to join NATO.

The senior U.S. official said these steps amounted to "three train wrecks" from Putin's point of view, exacerbating the Russian leader's sense of victimization. "Doing all three of those things in kind of close proximity - Kosovo independence, missile defense and the NATO expansion decisions - sort of fed his sense of people trying to take advantage of Russia," he said.

In August 2008, Putin struck back. After Georgia launched an offensive to regain control of the breakaway, pro-Russian region of South Ossetia, Putin launched a military operation that expanded Russian control of South Ossetia and a second breakaway area, Abkhazia.

The Bush administration, tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan, publicly protested but declined to intervene militarily in Georgia. Putin emerged as the clear winner and achieved his goal of standing up to the West.

ONLY ONE MAJOR ISSUE

After his 2008 election victory, Barack Obama carried out a sweeping review of Russia policy. Its primary architect was Michael McFaul, a Stanford University professor and vocal proponent of greater democracy in Russia who took the National Security Council position previously held by Thomas Graham.

In a recent interview, McFaul said that when Obama's new national security team surveyed the administration's primary foreign policy objectives, they found that few involved Russia. Only one directly related to bilateral relations with Moscow: a new nuclear arms reduction treaty.

The result, McFaul said, was that relations with Moscow were seen as important in terms of achieving other foreign policy goals, and not as important in terms of Russia itself.

"So that was our approach," he said.

Obama's new Russia strategy was called "the reset." In July 2009, he traveled to Moscow to start implementing it.

In an interview with the Associated Press a few days before leaving Washington, Obama chided Putin, who had become Russia's prime minister in 2008 after reaching his two-term constitutional limit as president. Obama said the United States was developing a "very good relationship" with the man Putin had anointed as his successor, Dmitry Medvedev, and accused Putin of using "Cold War approaches" to relations with Washington.

"I think Putin has one foot in the old ways of doing business and one foot in the new," Obama said.

In Moscow, Obama spent five hours meeting with Medvedev and only one hour meeting with Putin, who was still widely seen as the country's real power. After their meeting, Putin said U.S.-Russian relations had gone through various stages.

"There were periods when our relations flourished quite a bit and there were also periods of, shall we say, grayish mood between our two countries and of stagnation," he said, as Obama sat a few feet away.

At first, the reset fared well. During Obama's visit, Moscow agreed to greatly expand Washington's ability to ship military supplies to Afghanistan via Russia. In April 2010, the United States and Russia signed a new START treaty, further reducing the U.S. and Russian nuclear arsenals. Later that year, Russia supported sweeping new U.N. economic sanctions on Iran and blocked the sale of sophisticated, Russian-made S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems to Tehran.

Experts said the two-year honeymoon was the result of the Obama administration's engaging Russia on issues where the two countries shared interests, such as reducing nuclear arms, countering terrorism and nonproliferation. The same core issues that sparked tensions during the Bush administration - democracy and Russia's neighbors - largely went unaddressed.

A VAPORIZED RELATIONSHIP

In 2011, Putin accused Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of secretly organizing street demonstrations after disputed Russian parliamentary elections. Putin said Clinton had encouraged "mercenary" Kremlin foes. And he claimed that foreign governments had provided "hundreds of millions" of dollars to Russian opposition groups.

"She set the tone for some opposition activists, gave them a signal, they heard this signal and started active work," Putin said.

McFaul called that a gross exaggeration. He said the U.S. government and American non-profit groups in total have provided tens of millions of dollars in support to civil society groups in Russia and former Soviet bloc countries since 1989.

In 2012, Putin was elected to a third term as president and launched a sweeping crackdown on dissent and re-centralization of power. McFaul, then the U.S. ambassador in Moscow, publicly criticized the moves in speeches and Twitter posts.

In the interview, McFaul blamed Putin for the collapse in relations. McFaul said the Russian leader rebuffed repeated invitations to visit Washington when he was prime minister and declined to attend a G-8 meeting in Washington after he again became president. Echoing Bush-era officials, McFaul said it was politically impossible for an American president to trade Russian cooperation on Iran, for example, for U.S. silence on democracy in Russia and Moscow's pressuring of its neighbors.

"We're not going to do it if it means trading partnerships or interests with our partners or allies in the region," McFaul said. "And we're not going to do it if it means trading our speaking about democracy and human rights."

Andrew Weiss, a Russia expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said that clashes over democracy ended any hopes of U.S.-Russian rapprochement, as they had in the Bush administration.

"That fight basically vaporizes the relationship," said Weiss.

In 2013, U.S.-Russian relations plummeted. In June, Putin granted asylum to National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden. Obama, in turn, canceled a planned summit meeting with Putin in Moscow that fall. It was the first time a U.S. summit with the Kremlin had been canceled in 50 years.

Last fall, demonstrators in Kiev began demanding that Ukraine move closer to the European Union. At the time, the Obama White House was deeply skeptical of Putin and paying little attention to the former Soviet bloc, according to Weiss. White House officials had come to see Russia as a foreign policy dead end, not a source of potential successes.

Deferring to European officials, the Obama administration backed a plan that would have moved Ukraine closer to the EU and away from a pro-Russian economic bloc created by Putin. Critics said it was a mistake to make Ukraine choose sides.

Jack F. Matlock, who served as U.S. ambassador to Moscow from 1987 to 1991, said that years of escalating protests by Putin made it clear he believed the West was surrounding him with hostile neighbors. And for centuries, Russian leaders have viewed a friendly Ukraine as vital to Moscow's defense.

"The real red line has always been Ukraine," Matlock said. "When you begin to poke them in the most sensitive area, unnecessarily, about their security, you are going to get a reaction that makes them a lot less cooperative."

A PLIANT RUSSIA?

American experts said it was vital for the U.S. to establish a new long-term strategy toward Russia that does not blame the current crisis solely on Putin. Matthew Rojansky, a Russia expert at the Wilson Center, argued that demonizing Putin reflected the continued failure of American officials to recognize Russia's power, interest and importance.

"Putin is a reflection of Russia," Rojansky said. "This weird notion that Putin will go away and there will suddenly be a pliant Russia is false."

A senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, called for a long-term strategy that exploits the multiple advantages the U.S. and Europe enjoy over Putin's Russia.

"I would much rather be playing our hand than his over the longer term," the official said. "Because he has a number of, I think, pretty serious strategic disadvantages - a one-dimensional economy, a political system and a political elite that's pretty rotten through corruption."

Matlock, the former U.S. ambassador, said it was vital for Washington and Moscow to end a destructive pattern of careless American action followed by Russian overreaction.

"So many of the problems in our relationship really relate, I would say, to what I'd call inconsiderate American actions," Matlock said. "Many of them were not meant to be damaging to Russia. … But the Russian interpretation often exaggerated the degree of hostility and overreacted."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/19 05:27:23


"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

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 whembly wrote:
Are Russians still trying to annex Alaska?


Pro Tip: You think Americans in general are loaded with guns on the street? Lemme tell ya something... Alaskans are armed to the teeth.

*My pa lived there over 30 years... you should see their personal armoury .

Besides... Bullwinkle will trample anyone.
Oh, but the Russians have regretted selling Alaska often enough. Especially during the Cold War and when it turned out Alaska was full of valueable resources.
Back in the 19th century, Alaska was just a cold piece of worthless, unprofitable land. Stupid Tsar thought he had made a good deal


edit:
This video got over 4 million views in less than 4 days. Lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/19 13:22:49


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right sector assaulted a checkpoint, shot several people, killing two and wounding others.

the checkpoint was a group of pro-russia protestors (who had no guns, just bats, to comply with the easter truce)

Right sector opened fire on the with a machine gun + assault rifles, and was eventually chased off when another group of pro russian protestors arrived with guns.

One of the right sector guys was captured, and confirmed to be part of the right sector paramilitary group.

from RT, story is also confirmed by BBC http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27093347 OFC BBC is tactfully not mentioning the evidence from the captured attacker proving he is a member of right sector, but we all have our "propaganda" goggle on when reading BOTH sides right? RIGHT?!?

"Five people have been killed in a gunfight in Slavyansk, a city in eastern Ukraine held by anti-government protesters. The fatalities include three protesters and two attackers, who are believed to be from the Right Sector paramilitary.

Read RT's live updates on Ukrainian turmoil

The deaths came after a night attack on a protester checkpoint on the outskirts of the city. Four cars drove by the checkpoint and opened fire at the local residents manning it, killing two people and seriously injuring several others.

“They approached with their high beam headlamps on. Our man went to them and asked not to blind us, show IDs and open the trunk for inspection. Then an assault rifle got stuck out of the window and he was gunned down,” an eyewitness, Vladimir, told RT.

He added some of the people trying to flee the attackers were shot in their backs. One gunshot victim died later in hospital from a head wound, local medics confirmed. Two others are undergoing treatment. "

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/20 15:17:51


 
   
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 easysauce wrote:
right sector assaulted a checkpoint, shot several people, killing two and wounding others.

the checkpoint was a group of pro-russia protestors (who had no guns, just bats, to comply with the easter truce)

If they honestly didn't have firearms as part of a truce, this fething sucks.

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
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 -Shrike- wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
right sector assaulted a checkpoint, shot several people, killing two and wounding others.

the checkpoint was a group of pro-russia protestors (who had no guns, just bats, to comply with the easter truce)

If they honestly didn't have firearms as part of a truce, this fething sucks.

Yes, the protesters were unarmed because of the truce. They had to get weapons from the city, after which they managed to chase the attackers away and kill two of them and capturing one.
The captive confirmed to be part of Pravy Sektor. Pravy Sektor has denied the attack, but the evidence found in the attacker's cars is rather condemning.

This is a serious blasphemy; they defiled the holy day of Easter. It really shows what kind of people now sit in Kiev.

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This is a serious blasphemy; they defiled the holy day of Easter. It really shows what kind of people now sit in Kiev.


This is not the first time someone was killed in combat on a Holy day.

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 Jihadin wrote:
This is a serious blasphemy; they defiled the holy day of Easter. It really shows what kind of people now sit in Kiev.


This is not the first time someone was killed in combat on a Holy day.

No, but killing people during an agreed truce is generally a pretty bad idea, especially if you're trying to win people to your cause.

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. 
   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






I think what is more disturbing, not to undermine how bad this attack is.

But this means right sector is totally out of the control of the new Kiev regime.

They were told very clearly to not start shooting people, just as they were told to NOT loot the national armories.

Right sector has made some fairly violent promises in the last month or so, and this attack proves they were not empty threats.

Hopefully someone within the new kiev administration cleans up house before right sector's body count gets to the point where someone else has to intervene.

Unless of course, and this is the much worse option, right sector is still very much "under control", the whole point all along, get right sector to do the dirty work, so there is plausible dependability, and force russias hand to intervene if ethnic russians start being murdered in ukraine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/20 22:34:51


 
   
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Makes you wonder if someone stupid enough to shoot up a Russian checkpoint at this time

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
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Well, Tymoshenko did say she wanted to "exterminate the Russians" or something to that effect.

Also, has anyone else noticed that all the gung-ho, pro-West war hawks posting in this thread seem to have gone quiet lately? I guess finding out that you're backing a motley bunch of violent Neo Nazi's will tend to curb your enthusiasm.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/20 23:21:18


 
   
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Believeland, OH

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well, Tymoshenko did say she wanted to "exterminate the Russians" or something to that effect.

Also, has anyone else noticed that all the gung-ho, pro-West war hawks posting in this thread seem to have gone quiet lately? I guess finding out that you're backing a motley bunch of violent Neo Nazi's will tend to curb your enthusiasm.


Well a lot of them moved to the other thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/590491.page

I'm beginning to think this was part of the Wests plan in the first place. Lets look at it, Ukraine was basically set up for massive sectarian violence once there was any real political instability. The country is basically divided ethnically and there are plenty of weapons to be had....instant powderkeg. Knowing this, the west destabilizes the country, hoping for the typical bloodshed so that they can send in Nato peacekeepers, thus insuring control of the country. I just don't think they ever counted on Russia's hard counter to their moves. Russian intervention has kept the area pretty peaceful, ruining the Wests excuse for sending troops in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 05:32:39


"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
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Imperial Admiral




So, there appears to be confirmation that all those guys seizing Ukrainian government buildings are indeed Russian special operations soldiers and intelligence operatives working in sanitized kit. New York Times has the story. I've pasted it below, broken up into three spoiler sections (it's long).

Spoiler:
KIEV, Ukraine — For two weeks, the mysteriously well-armed, professional gunmen known as “green men” have seized Ukrainian government sites in town after town, igniting a brush fire of separatist unrest across eastern Ukraine. Strenuous denials from the Kremlin have closely followed each accusation by Ukrainian officials that the world was witnessing a stealthy invasion by Russian forces.

Now, photographs and descriptions from eastern Ukraine endorsed by the Obama administration on Sunday suggest that many of the green men are indeed Russian military and intelligence forces — equipped in the same fashion as Russian special operations troops involved in annexing the Crimea region in February. Some of the men photographed in Ukraine have been identified in other photos clearly taken among Russian troops in other settings.

And Ukraine’s state security service has identified one Russian reported to be active among the green men as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s. He is said to have a long résumé of undercover service with the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian general staff, most recently in Crimea in February and March and now in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk.

“There has been broad unity in the international community about the connection between Russia and some of the armed militants in eastern Ukraine, and the photos presented by the Ukrainians last week only further confirm this, which is why U.S. officials have continued to make that case,” Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said Sunday.

The question of Russia’s role in eastern Ukraine has a critical bearing on the agreement reached Thursday in Geneva among Russian, Ukrainian, American and European diplomats to ease the crisis. American officials have said that Russia would be held responsible for ensuring that the Ukrainian government buildings were vacated, and that it could face new sanctions if the terms were not met.


Spoiler:
The Kremlin insists that Russian forces are in no way involved, and that Mr. Strelkov does not even exist, at least not as a Russian operative sent to Ukraine with orders to stir up trouble. “It’s all nonsense,” President Vladimir V. Putin said Thursday during a four-hour question-and-answer session on Russian television. “There are no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine.” Pro-Russian activists who have seized government buildings in at least 10 towns across eastern Ukraine also deny getting help from professional Russian soldiers or intelligence agents.

But masking the identity of its forces, and clouding the possibilities for international denunciation, is a central part of the Russian strategy, developed over years of conflict in the former Soviet sphere, Ukrainian and American officials say.

John R. Schindler, a former National Security Agency counterintelligence officer who now teaches at the Naval War College, calls it “special war”: “an amalgam of espionage, subversion, even forms of terrorism to attain political ends without actually going to war in any conventional sense.”

And one country, Mr. Schindler noted in an article last year in which he coined the term, that particularly excels at special war is Russia, which carried out its first post-Soviet war to regain control of rebellious Chechnya back in 1994 by sending in a column of armored vehicles filled with Russian soldiers masquerading as pro-Moscow Chechens.

Russia’s flair for “maskirovka” — disguised warfare — has become even more evident under Mr. Putin, a former K.G.B. officer whose closest advisers are mostly from that same Soviet intelligence agency.

For nearly two months now, the shaky new Ukrainian government has been left to battle phantoms, first in Crimea and now in eastern Ukraine, where previously fringe pro-Russian political activists have had their fortunes lifted by small but heavily armed groups of masked men.

In the eastern city of Slovyansk, under the control of pro-Russian insurgents for more than a week now, the green men have worked hard to blend in with locals but have occasionally let the mask slip, apparently to send a clear message that any push to regain control by Ukrainian forces would risk bringing down the wrath of the Russian military.

A gradation of forces control the city and other areas now in the hands of separatist rebels, ranging from clearly professional masked soldiers and unruly groups of local men in camouflage, rifles slung over their shoulders, to teenage boys in sweatpants carrying baseball bats or hunting knives. At most times, only the local toughs are visible on the streets.

But when a woman sidled up to one of the masked gunmen in the city’s central square last week and asked where he was from, she got an answer that summed up Russia’s bedeviling and constantly shifting disguises. The gunman initially said he was “from Russia,” but when pressed, said coyly that he was “from New Russia,” a long-forgotten czarist-era term revived last week by Mr. Putin to describe a large section of eastern and southern Ukraine.

Asked by the woman what would happen if the Ukrainian Army attacked, he replied, “We have to stand for only 24 hours, to tend the fire, and after that, a one million man army will be here.”

When a Ukrainian armored column approached the town last Wednesday and then swiftly surrendered, a group of disciplined green men suddenly appeared on the scene and stood guard. Over the course of several hours, several of them told bystanders in the sympathetic crowd that they were Russians. They allowed themselves to be photographed with local girls, and drove an armored personnel carrier in circles to please the crowd.


Spoiler:
“It’s hard to fathom that groups of armed men in masks suddenly sprang forward from the population in eastern Ukraine and systematically began to occupy government facilities,” Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, NATO’s top military commander, wrote in a blog post on the alliance’s website. “It’s hard to fathom because it’s simply not true. What is happening in eastern Ukraine is a military operation that is well planned and organized, and we assess that it is being carried out at the direction of Russia.”

His evidence, however, was mostly circumstantial: Pro-Russian gunmen “exhibit telltale military training and equipment”; they handle weapons like professional soldiers, not new recruits to a pickup “self-defense” force; they carry weapons and equipment that are primarily Russian Army issue, not gear “that civilians would be likely to be able to get their hands on in large numbers.” General Breedlove conceded that such points, taken alone, might not prove much, “but taken in the aggregate, the story is clear.”

Heightening skepticism of Russia’s denials is also the fact that Mr. Putin, after denying any Russian link to the masked gunmen who seized government buildings in Crimea and blockaded Ukrainian military bases there, last week changed his story and said, “Of course, Russian servicemen did back the Crimean self-defense forces.”

More direct evidence of a Russian hand in eastern Ukraine is contained in a dossier of photographs provided by Ukraine to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, a Vienna-based organization now monitoring the situation in Donetsk and other parts of the country. It features pictures taken in eastern Ukraine of unidentified gunmen and an earlier photograph of what looks like the same men appearing in a group shot of a Russian military unit in Russia.

One set of photographs shows what appears to be the same gunman in pictures taken in the Crimean annexation and more recently in Slovyansk. Another features a portly bearded man photographed in Slovyansk on April 14, wearing a camouflage uniform without insignia, but six years earlier, had been photographed during Russia’s invasion of Georgia with a Russian special forces patch on his left arm.

Another character in Ukraine’s case against Russia is Mr. Strelkov, the alleged military intelligence officer who Kiev says took part in a furtive Russian operation to prepare for the annexation of Crimea and, more recently, in insurgent action in Slovyansk.

No photographs have yet emerged of Mr. Strelkov, but the Security Service of Ukraine, the successor organization to what used to be Ukraine’s local branch of the K.G.B., has released a sketch of what it says is his face.

The security agency, known by its Ukrainian abbreviation S.B.U., first identified him publicly early last week after releasing an audio recording of what it said was a recording of an intercepted communication between Russian operatives in eastern Ukraine and their controller back in Russia.

In the recording, a man nicknamed “Strelok” — who the Ukrainian agency says is Mr. Strelkov — and others can be heard discussing weapons, roadblocks and how to hold on to captured positions in and near Slovyansk with a superior in Russia.

The superior, clearly anxious to keep Russia’s role hidden, can be heard ordering his men on the ground in Ukraine not to identify themselves and to find someone with a Ukrainian accent who can give an interview to a Russian television channel. It was very important, he added, to say on air that all the pro-Russian insurgents want is “federalization,” or constitutional changes to give eastern Ukraine more autonomy.

Military analysts say the Russian tactics show a disturbing amount of finesse that speak to long-term planning.

“The Russians have used very specialized, very effective forces,” said Jacob W. Kipp, an expert on the Russian military and the former deputy director of the United States Army’s School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

“They don’t assume that civilians are cluttering up the battlefield; they assume they are going to be there,” he said. “They are trained to operate in these kind of environments.”

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 08:55:06


 
   
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 Andrew1975 wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well, Tymoshenko did say she wanted to "exterminate the Russians" or something to that effect.

Also, has anyone else noticed that all the gung-ho, pro-West war hawks posting in this thread seem to have gone quiet lately? I guess finding out that you're backing a motley bunch of violent Neo Nazi's will tend to curb your enthusiasm.


Well a lot of them moved to the other thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/590491.page



Yeah, several of them, and Western media in general are pretty transparent in their motivations.

"Send in NATO!"
"Enter Ukraine into the EU!"
"Station ballistic missiles in Ukraine!"
"Station NATO troops and tanks on the Russian border!"
"Isolate Russia!"


Its a dangerous, bloodthirsty attitude. Rubbing their hands with glee and anticipation at the prospect of war. This will be World War 2 all over again.

A once proud and powerful nation, defeated and impoverished through a long war? (Cold War) Check.
Subjected to further humiliation as slices (in Russia's case, entire countries) of its territory are sliced off and annexed by other countries. Check.
Isolated and surrounded by an alliance of hostile nations? Check.
A new charismatic leader takes power, and offers a brighter future? No more will the nation be bullied and humiliated. Check.
Said new leader re-arms his countries military, and exercises its military might by annexing territories lost to them in recent decades; and to ruthlessly protect its national interests? Check.
   
 
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