A once proud and powerful nation, defeated and impoverished through a long war? (Cold War) Check.
Subjected to further humiliation as slices (in Russia's case, entire countries) of its territory are sliced off and annexed by other countries. Check.
Isolated and surrounded by an alliance of hostile nations? Check.
A new charismatic leader takes power, and offers a brighter future? No more will the nation be bullied and humiliated. Check.
Said new leader re-arms his countries military, and exercises its military might by annexing territories lost to them in recent decades; and to ruthlessly protect its national interests? Check.

 Seaward wrote:
So, there appears to be confirmation that all those guys seizing Ukrainian government buildings are indeed Russian special operations soldiers and intelligence operatives working in sanitized kit. New York Times has the story. I've pasted it below, broken up into three spoiler sections (it's long).

Spoiler:

KIEV, Ukraine — For two weeks, the mysteriously well-armed, professional gunmen known as “green men” have seized Ukrainian government sites in town after town, igniting a brush fire of separatist unrest across eastern Ukraine. Strenuous denials from the Kremlin have closely followed each accusation by Ukrainian officials that the world was witnessing a stealthy invasion by Russian forces.

Now, photographs and descriptions from eastern Ukraine endorsed by the Obama administration on Sunday suggest that many of the green men are indeed Russian military and intelligence forces — equipped in the same fashion as Russian special operations troops involved in annexing the Crimea region in February. Some of the men photographed in Ukraine have been identified in other photos clearly taken among Russian troops in other settings.

And Ukraine’s state security service has identified one Russian reported to be active among the green men as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s. He is said to have a long résumé of undercover service with the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian general staff, most recently in Crimea in February and March and now in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk.

“There has been broad unity in the international community about the connection between Russia and some of the armed militants in eastern Ukraine, and the photos presented by the Ukrainians last week only further confirm this, which is why U.S. officials have continued to make that case,” Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said Sunday.

The question of Russia’s role in eastern Ukraine has a critical bearing on the agreement reached Thursday in Geneva among Russian, Ukrainian, American and European diplomats to ease the crisis. American officials have said that Russia would be held responsible for ensuring that the Ukrainian government buildings were vacated, and that it could face new sanctions if the terms were not met.

Spoiler:

The Kremlin insists that Russian forces are in no way involved, and that Mr. Strelkov does not even exist, at least not as a Russian operative sent to Ukraine with orders to stir up trouble. “It’s all nonsense,” President Vladimir V. Putin said Thursday during a four-hour question-and-answer session on Russian television. “There are no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine.” Pro-Russian activists who have seized government buildings in at least 10 towns across eastern Ukraine also deny getting help from professional Russian soldiers or intelligence agents.

But masking the identity of its forces, and clouding the possibilities for international denunciation, is a central part of the Russian strategy, developed over years of conflict in the former Soviet sphere, Ukrainian and American officials say.

John R. Schindler, a former National Security Agency counterintelligence officer who now teaches at the Naval War College, calls it “special war”: “an amalgam of espionage, subversion, even forms of terrorism to attain political ends without actually going to war in any conventional sense.”

And one country, Mr. Schindler noted in an article last year in which he coined the term, that particularly excels at special war is Russia, which carried out its first post-Soviet war to regain control of rebellious Chechnya back in 1994 by sending in a column of armored vehicles filled with Russian soldiers masquerading as pro-Moscow Chechens.

Russia’s flair for “maskirovka” — disguised warfare — has become even more evident under Mr. Putin, a former K.G.B. officer whose closest advisers are mostly from that same Soviet intelligence agency.

For nearly two months now, the shaky new Ukrainian government has been left to battle phantoms, first in Crimea and now in eastern Ukraine, where previously fringe pro-Russian political activists have had their fortunes lifted by small but heavily armed groups of masked men.

In the eastern city of Slovyansk, under the control of pro-Russian insurgents for more than a week now, the green men have worked hard to blend in with locals but have occasionally let the mask slip, apparently to send a clear message that any push to regain control by Ukrainian forces would risk bringing down the wrath of the Russian military.

A gradation of forces control the city and other areas now in the hands of separatist rebels, ranging from clearly professional masked soldiers and unruly groups of local men in camouflage, rifles slung over their shoulders, to teenage boys in sweatpants carrying baseball bats or hunting knives. At most times, only the local toughs are visible on the streets.

But when a woman sidled up to one of the masked gunmen in the city’s central square last week and asked where he was from, she got an answer that summed up Russia’s bedeviling and constantly shifting disguises. The gunman initially said he was “from Russia,” but when pressed, said coyly that he was “from New Russia,” a long-forgotten czarist-era term revived last week by Mr. Putin to describe a large section of eastern and southern Ukraine.

Asked by the woman what would happen if the Ukrainian Army attacked, he replied, “We have to stand for only 24 hours, to tend the fire, and after that, a one million man army will be here.”

When a Ukrainian armored column approached the town last Wednesday and then swiftly surrendered, a group of disciplined green men suddenly appeared on the scene and stood guard. Over the course of several hours, several of them told bystanders in the sympathetic crowd that they were Russians. They allowed themselves to be photographed with local girls, and drove an armored personnel carrier in circles to please the crowd.

Spoiler:

“It’s hard to fathom that groups of armed men in masks suddenly sprang forward from the population in eastern Ukraine and systematically began to occupy government facilities,” Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, NATO’s top military commander, wrote in a blog post on the alliance’s website. “It’s hard to fathom because it’s simply not true. What is happening in eastern Ukraine is a military operation that is well planned and organized, and we assess that it is being carried out at the direction of Russia.”

His evidence, however, was mostly circumstantial: Pro-Russian gunmen “exhibit telltale military training and equipment”; they handle weapons like professional soldiers, not new recruits to a pickup “self-defense” force; they carry weapons and equipment that are primarily Russian Army issue, not gear “that civilians would be likely to be able to get their hands on in large numbers.” General Breedlove conceded that such points, taken alone, might not prove much, “but taken in the aggregate, the story is clear.”

Heightening skepticism of Russia’s denials is also the fact that Mr. Putin, after denying any Russian link to the masked gunmen who seized government buildings in Crimea and blockaded Ukrainian military bases there, last week changed his story and said, “Of course, Russian servicemen did back the Crimean self-defense forces.”

More direct evidence of a Russian hand in eastern Ukraine is contained in a dossier of photographs provided by Ukraine to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, a Vienna-based organization now monitoring the situation in Donetsk and other parts of the country. It features pictures taken in eastern Ukraine of unidentified gunmen and an earlier photograph of what looks like the same men appearing in a group shot of a Russian military unit in Russia.

One set of photographs shows what appears to be the same gunman in pictures taken in the Crimean annexation and more recently in Slovyansk. Another features a portly bearded man photographed in Slovyansk on April 14, wearing a camouflage uniform without insignia, but six years earlier, had been photographed during Russia’s invasion of Georgia with a Russian special forces patch on his left arm.

Another character in Ukraine’s case against Russia is Mr. Strelkov, the alleged military intelligence officer who Kiev says took part in a furtive Russian operation to prepare for the annexation of Crimea and, more recently, in insurgent action in Slovyansk.

No photographs have yet emerged of Mr. Strelkov, but the Security Service of Ukraine, the successor organization to what used to be Ukraine’s local branch of the K.G.B., has released a sketch of what it says is his face.

The security agency, known by its Ukrainian abbreviation S.B.U., first identified him publicly early last week after releasing an audio recording of what it said was a recording of an intercepted communication between Russian operatives in eastern Ukraine and their controller back in Russia.

In the recording, a man nicknamed “Strelok” — who the Ukrainian agency says is Mr. Strelkov — and others can be heard discussing weapons, roadblocks and how to hold on to captured positions in and near Slovyansk with a superior in Russia.

The superior, clearly anxious to keep Russia’s role hidden, can be heard ordering his men on the ground in Ukraine not to identify themselves and to find someone with a Ukrainian accent who can give an interview to a Russian television channel. It was very important, he added, to say on air that all the pro-Russian insurgents want is “federalization,” or constitutional changes to give eastern Ukraine more autonomy.

Military analysts say the Russian tactics show a disturbing amount of finesse that speak to long-term planning.

“The Russians have used very specialized, very effective forces,” said Jacob W. Kipp, an expert on the Russian military and the former deputy director of the United States Army’s School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

“They don’t assume that civilians are cluttering up the battlefield; they assume they are going to be there,” he said. “They are trained to operate in these kind of environments.”

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well, Tymoshenko did say she wanted to "exterminate the Russians" or something to that effect.

Also, has anyone else noticed that all the gung-ho, pro-West war hawks posting in this thread seem to have gone quiet lately? I guess finding out that you're backing a motley bunch of violent Neo Nazi's will tend to curb your enthusiasm.

 Seaward wrote:
So, there appears to be confirmation that all those guys seizing Ukrainian government buildings are indeed Russian special operations soldiers and intelligence operatives working in sanitized kit. New York Times has the story. I've pasted it below, broken up into three spoiler sections (it's long).

Spoiler:

KIEV, Ukraine — For two weeks, the mysteriously well-armed, professional gunmen known as “green men” have seized Ukrainian government sites in town after town, igniting a brush fire of separatist unrest across eastern Ukraine. Strenuous denials from the Kremlin have closely followed each accusation by Ukrainian officials that the world was witnessing a stealthy invasion by Russian forces.

Now, photographs and descriptions from eastern Ukraine endorsed by the Obama administration on Sunday suggest that many of the green men are indeed Russian military and intelligence forces — equipped in the same fashion as Russian special operations troops involved in annexing the Crimea region in February. Some of the men photographed in Ukraine have been identified in other photos clearly taken among Russian troops in other settings.

And Ukraine’s state security service has identified one Russian reported to be active among the green men as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s. He is said to have a long résumé of undercover service with the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian general staff, most recently in Crimea in February and March and now in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk.


“There has been broad unity in the international community about the connection between Russia and some of the armed militants in eastern Ukraine, and the photos presented by the Ukrainians last week only further confirm this, which is why U.S. officials have continued to make that case,” Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said Sunday.

The question of Russia’s role in eastern Ukraine has a critical bearing on the agreement reached Thursday in Geneva among Russian, Ukrainian, American and European diplomats to ease the crisis. American officials have said that Russia would be held responsible for ensuring that the Ukrainian government buildings were vacated, and that it could face new sanctions if the terms were not met.

Spoiler:

The Kremlin insists that Russian forces are in no way involved, and that Mr. Strelkov does not even exist, at least not as a Russian operative sent to Ukraine with orders to stir up trouble. “It’s all nonsense,” President Vladimir V. Putin said Thursday during a four-hour question-and-answer session on Russian television. “There are no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine.” Pro-Russian activists who have seized government buildings in at least 10 towns across eastern Ukraine also deny getting help from professional Russian soldiers or intelligence agents.

But masking the identity of its forces, and clouding the possibilities for international denunciation, is a central part of the Russian strategy, developed over years of conflict in the former Soviet sphere, Ukrainian and American officials say.

John R. Schindler, a former National Security Agency counterintelligence officer who now teaches at the Naval War College, calls it “special war”: “an amalgam of espionage, subversion, even forms of terrorism to attain political ends without actually going to war in any conventional sense.”

And one country, Mr. Schindler noted in an article last year in which he coined the term, that particularly excels at special war is Russia, which carried out its first post-Soviet war to regain control of rebellious Chechnya back in 1994 by sending in a column of armored vehicles filled with Russian soldiers masquerading as pro-Moscow Chechens.

Russia’s flair for “maskirovka” — disguised warfare — has become even more evident under Mr. Putin, a former K.G.B. officer whose closest advisers are mostly from that same Soviet intelligence agency.

For nearly two months now, the shaky new Ukrainian government has been left to battle phantoms, first in Crimea and now in eastern Ukraine, where previously fringe pro-Russian political activists have had their fortunes lifted by small but heavily armed groups of masked men.

In the eastern city of Slovyansk, under the control of pro-Russian insurgents for more than a week now, the green men have worked hard to blend in with locals but have occasionally let the mask slip, apparently to send a clear message that any push to regain control by Ukrainian forces would risk bringing down the wrath of the Russian military.

A gradation of forces control the city and other areas now in the hands of separatist rebels, ranging from clearly professional masked soldiers and unruly groups of local men in camouflage, rifles slung over their shoulders, to teenage boys in sweatpants carrying baseball bats or hunting knives. At most times, only the local toughs are visible on the streets.

But when a woman sidled up to one of the masked gunmen in the city’s central square last week and asked where he was from, she got an answer that summed up Russia’s bedeviling and constantly shifting disguises. The gunman initially said he was “from Russia,” but when pressed, said coyly that he was “from New Russia,” a long-forgotten czarist-era term revived last week by Mr. Putin to describe a large section of eastern and southern Ukraine.

Asked by the woman what would happen if the Ukrainian Army attacked, he replied, “We have to stand for only 24 hours, to tend the fire, and after that, a one million man army will be here.”

When a Ukrainian armored column approached the town last Wednesday and then swiftly surrendered, a group of disciplined green men suddenly appeared on the scene and stood guard. Over the course of several hours, several of them told bystanders in the sympathetic crowd that they were Russians. They allowed themselves to be photographed with local girls, and drove an armored personnel carrier in circles to please the crowd.

Spoiler:

“It’s hard to fathom that groups of armed men in masks suddenly sprang forward from the population in eastern Ukraine and systematically began to occupy government facilities,” Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, NATO’s top military commander, wrote in a blog post on the alliance’s website. “It’s hard to fathom because it’s simply not true. What is happening in eastern Ukraine is a military operation that is well planned and organized, and we assess that it is being carried out at the direction of Russia.”

His evidence, however, was mostly circumstantial: Pro-Russian gunmen “exhibit telltale military training and equipment”; they handle weapons like professional soldiers, not new recruits to a pickup “self-defense” force; they carry weapons and equipment that are primarily Russian Army issue, not gear “that civilians would be likely to be able to get their hands on in large numbers.” General Breedlove conceded that such points, taken alone, might not prove much, “but taken in the aggregate, the story is clear.”

Heightening skepticism of Russia’s denials is also the fact that Mr. Putin, after denying any Russian link to the masked gunmen who seized government buildings in Crimea and blockaded Ukrainian military bases there, last week changed his story and said, “Of course, Russian servicemen did back the Crimean self-defense forces.”

More direct evidence of a Russian hand in eastern Ukraine is contained in a dossier of photographs provided by Ukraine to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, a Vienna-based organization now monitoring the situation in Donetsk and other parts of the country. It features pictures taken in eastern Ukraine of unidentified gunmen and an earlier photograph of what looks like the same men appearing in a group shot of a Russian military unit in Russia.

One set of photographs shows what appears to be the same gunman in pictures taken in the Crimean annexation and more recently in Slovyansk. Another features a portly bearded man photographed in Slovyansk on April 14, wearing a camouflage uniform without insignia, but six years earlier, had been photographed during Russia’s invasion of Georgia with a Russian special forces patch on his left arm.

Another character in Ukraine’s case against Russia is Mr. Strelkov, the alleged military intelligence officer who Kiev says took part in a furtive Russian operation to prepare for the annexation of Crimea and, more recently, in insurgent action in Slovyansk.

No photographs have yet emerged of Mr. Strelkov, but the Security Service of Ukraine, the successor organization to what used to be Ukraine’s local branch of the K.G.B., has released a sketch of what it says is his face.

The security agency, known by its Ukrainian abbreviation S.B.U., first identified him publicly early last week after releasing an audio recording of what it said was a recording of an intercepted communication between Russian operatives in eastern Ukraine and their controller back in Russia.

In the recording, a man nicknamed “Strelok” — who the Ukrainian agency says is Mr. Strelkov — and others can be heard discussing weapons, roadblocks and how to hold on to captured positions in and near Slovyansk with a superior in Russia.

The superior, clearly anxious to keep Russia’s role hidden, can be heard ordering his men on the ground in Ukraine not to identify themselves and to find someone with a Ukrainian accent who can give an interview to a Russian television channel. It was very important, he added, to say on air that all the pro-Russian insurgents want is “federalization,” or constitutional changes to give eastern Ukraine more autonomy.

Military analysts say the Russian tactics show a disturbing amount of finesse that speak to long-term planning.

“The Russians have used very specialized, very effective forces,” said Jacob W. Kipp, an expert on the Russian military and the former deputy director of the United States Army’s School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

“They don’t assume that civilians are cluttering up the battlefield; they assume they are going to be there,” he said. “They are trained to operate in these kind of environments.”

 Andrew1975 wrote:
This is not shocking stuff at all, there is no proof to it, but I would be surprised if this wasn't the case. It doesn't change anything in my mind, we know Western institutions and operatives are formentied to uprising in the first place, so again its pretty hipocritical for the West to be calling Russia out on this.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
So, there appears to be confirmation that all those guys seizing Ukrainian government buildings are indeed Russian special operations soldiers and intelligence operatives working in sanitized kit. New York Times has the story. I've pasted it below, broken up into three spoiler sections (it's long).

Spoiler:

KIEV, Ukraine — For two weeks, the mysteriously well-armed, professional gunmen known as “green men” have seized Ukrainian government sites in town after town, igniting a brush fire of separatist unrest across eastern Ukraine. Strenuous denials from the Kremlin have closely followed each accusation by Ukrainian officials that the world was witnessing a stealthy invasion by Russian forces.

Now, photographs and descriptions from eastern Ukraine endorsed by the Obama administration on Sunday suggest that many of the green men are indeed Russian military and intelligence forces — equipped in the same fashion as Russian special operations troops involved in annexing the Crimea region in February. Some of the men photographed in Ukraine have been identified in other photos clearly taken among Russian troops in other settings.

And Ukraine’s state security service has identified one Russian reported to be active among the green men as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s. He is said to have a long résumé of undercover service with the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian general staff, most recently in Crimea in February and March and now in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk.


“There has been broad unity in the international community about the connection between Russia and some of the armed militants in eastern Ukraine, and the photos presented by the Ukrainians last week only further confirm this, which is why U.S. officials have continued to make that case,” Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said Sunday.

The question of Russia’s role in eastern Ukraine has a critical bearing on the agreement reached Thursday in Geneva among Russian, Ukrainian, American and European diplomats to ease the crisis. American officials have said that Russia would be held responsible for ensuring that the Ukrainian government buildings were vacated, and that it could face new sanctions if the terms were not met.

Spoiler:

The Kremlin insists that Russian forces are in no way involved, and that Mr. Strelkov does not even exist, at least not as a Russian operative sent to Ukraine with orders to stir up trouble. “It’s all nonsense,” President Vladimir V. Putin said Thursday during a four-hour question-and-answer session on Russian television. “There are no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine.” Pro-Russian activists who have seized government buildings in at least 10 towns across eastern Ukraine also deny getting help from professional Russian soldiers or intelligence agents.

But masking the identity of its forces, and clouding the possibilities for international denunciation, is a central part of the Russian strategy, developed over years of conflict in the former Soviet sphere, Ukrainian and American officials say.

John R. Schindler, a former National Security Agency counterintelligence officer who now teaches at the Naval War College, calls it “special war”: “an amalgam of espionage, subversion, even forms of terrorism to attain political ends without actually going to war in any conventional sense.”

And one country, Mr. Schindler noted in an article last year in which he coined the term, that particularly excels at special war is Russia, which carried out its first post-Soviet war to regain control of rebellious Chechnya back in 1994 by sending in a column of armored vehicles filled with Russian soldiers masquerading as pro-Moscow Chechens.

Russia’s flair for “maskirovka” — disguised warfare — has become even more evident under Mr. Putin, a former K.G.B. officer whose closest advisers are mostly from that same Soviet intelligence agency.

For nearly two months now, the shaky new Ukrainian government has been left to battle phantoms, first in Crimea and now in eastern Ukraine, where previously fringe pro-Russian political activists have had their fortunes lifted by small but heavily armed groups of masked men.

In the eastern city of Slovyansk, under the control of pro-Russian insurgents for more than a week now, the green men have worked hard to blend in with locals but have occasionally let the mask slip, apparently to send a clear message that any push to regain control by Ukrainian forces would risk bringing down the wrath of the Russian military.

A gradation of forces control the city and other areas now in the hands of separatist rebels, ranging from clearly professional masked soldiers and unruly groups of local men in camouflage, rifles slung over their shoulders, to teenage boys in sweatpants carrying baseball bats or hunting knives. At most times, only the local toughs are visible on the streets.

But when a woman sidled up to one of the masked gunmen in the city’s central square last week and asked where he was from, she got an answer that summed up Russia’s bedeviling and constantly shifting disguises. The gunman initially said he was “from Russia,” but when pressed, said coyly that he was “from New Russia,” a long-forgotten czarist-era term revived last week by Mr. Putin to describe a large section of eastern and southern Ukraine.

Asked by the woman what would happen if the Ukrainian Army attacked, he replied, “We have to stand for only 24 hours, to tend the fire, and after that, a one million man army will be here.”

When a Ukrainian armored column approached the town last Wednesday and then swiftly surrendered, a group of disciplined green men suddenly appeared on the scene and stood guard. Over the course of several hours, several of them told bystanders in the sympathetic crowd that they were Russians. They allowed themselves to be photographed with local girls, and drove an armored personnel carrier in circles to please the crowd.

Spoiler:

“It’s hard to fathom that groups of armed men in masks suddenly sprang forward from the population in eastern Ukraine and systematically began to occupy government facilities,” Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, NATO’s top military commander, wrote in a blog post on the alliance’s website. “It’s hard to fathom because it’s simply not true. What is happening in eastern Ukraine is a military operation that is well planned and organized, and we assess that it is being carried out at the direction of Russia.”

His evidence, however, was mostly circumstantial: Pro-Russian gunmen “exhibit telltale military training and equipment”; they handle weapons like professional soldiers, not new recruits to a pickup “self-defense” force; they carry weapons and equipment that are primarily Russian Army issue, not gear “that civilians would be likely to be able to get their hands on in large numbers.” General Breedlove conceded that such points, taken alone, might not prove much, “but taken in the aggregate, the story is clear.”

Heightening skepticism of Russia’s denials is also the fact that Mr. Putin, after denying any Russian link to the masked gunmen who seized government buildings in Crimea and blockaded Ukrainian military bases there, last week changed his story and said, “Of course, Russian servicemen did back the Crimean self-defense forces.”

More direct evidence of a Russian hand in eastern Ukraine is contained in a dossier of photographs provided by Ukraine to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, a Vienna-based organization now monitoring the situation in Donetsk and other parts of the country. It features pictures taken in eastern Ukraine of unidentified gunmen and an earlier photograph of what looks like the same men appearing in a group shot of a Russian military unit in Russia.

One set of photographs shows what appears to be the same gunman in pictures taken in the Crimean annexation and more recently in Slovyansk. Another features a portly bearded man photographed in Slovyansk on April 14, wearing a camouflage uniform without insignia, but six years earlier, had been photographed during Russia’s invasion of Georgia with a Russian special forces patch on his left arm.

Another character in Ukraine’s case against Russia is Mr. Strelkov, the alleged military intelligence officer who Kiev says took part in a furtive Russian operation to prepare for the annexation of Crimea and, more recently, in insurgent action in Slovyansk.

No photographs have yet emerged of Mr. Strelkov, but the Security Service of Ukraine, the successor organization to what used to be Ukraine’s local branch of the K.G.B., has released a sketch of what it says is his face.

The security agency, known by its Ukrainian abbreviation S.B.U., first identified him publicly early last week after releasing an audio recording of what it said was a recording of an intercepted communication between Russian operatives in eastern Ukraine and their controller back in Russia.

In the recording, a man nicknamed “Strelok” — who the Ukrainian agency says is Mr. Strelkov — and others can be heard discussing weapons, roadblocks and how to hold on to captured positions in and near Slovyansk with a superior in Russia.

The superior, clearly anxious to keep Russia’s role hidden, can be heard ordering his men on the ground in Ukraine not to identify themselves and to find someone with a Ukrainian accent who can give an interview to a Russian television channel. It was very important, he added, to say on air that all the pro-Russian insurgents want is “federalization,” or constitutional changes to give eastern Ukraine more autonomy.

Military analysts say the Russian tactics show a disturbing amount of finesse that speak to long-term planning.

“The Russians have used very specialized, very effective forces,” said Jacob W. Kipp, an expert on the Russian military and the former deputy director of the United States Army’s School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

“They don’t assume that civilians are cluttering up the battlefield; they assume they are going to be there,” he said. “They are trained to operate in these kind of environments.”

This is not shocking stuff at all, there is no proof to it, but I would be surprised if this wasn't the case. It doesn't change anything in my mind, we know Western institutions and operatives are formentied to uprising in the first place, so again its pretty hipocritical for the West to be calling Russia out on this.

You know... I tire if that argument.

EVERYONE is hyprocritical... but that should never stop us from doing what we think it's right. So the real question should be: What is the right thing to do in this case?

Point me to some ACE or SOG guys who took Ukrainian government buildings, and I'll agree with you.

His evidence, however, was mostly circumstantial:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

You know... I tire if that argument.

EVERYONE is hyprocritical... but that should never stop us from doing what we think it's right. So the real question should be: What is the right thing to do in this case?

The right thing would have been to wait and try to influence the elections that were only a few months away when the uprising started, not use influence to forment a revolution. That cat is out of the bag now though.

 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

You know... I tire if that argument.

EVERYONE is hyprocritical... but that should never stop us from doing what we think it's right. So the real question should be: What is the right thing to do in this case?

The right thing would have been to wait and try to influence the elections that were only a few months away when the uprising started, not use influence to forment a revolution. That cat is out of the bag now though.

How do you know that 'THE WEST' formented this revolution? Did anyone fessed up?

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

You know... I tire if that argument.

EVERYONE is hyprocritical... but that should never stop us from doing what we think it's right. So the real question should be: What is the right thing to do in this case?

The right thing would have been to wait and try to influence the elections that were only a few months away when the uprising started, not use influence to forment a revolution. That cat is out of the bag now though.

How do you know that 'THE WEST' formented this revolution? Did anyone fessed up?

According to The Guardian, the foreign donors included the U.S. State Department and USAID along with the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the International Republican Institute, the NGO Freedom House and George Soros's Open Society Institute. The National Endowment for Democracy, a foundation supported by the U.S. government, has supported non-governmental democracy-building efforts in Ukraine since 1988. Writings on nonviolent struggle by Gene Sharp contributed in forming the strategic basis of the student campaigns.

When we see these groups throwing massive amounts of money and support into Ukraine along with the EU push, we can see a direct influence. Its easy enough to put 2 and 2 together.

Lots of shadow games going on from both sides, but its all still pretty transparent.

So... it's promoting "our brand of democracy" is what you take issue here?

I just a lot of 'Proxy War' activities here... very reminisce of the Cold War.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

So... it's promoting "our brand of democracy" is what you take issue here?

I just a lot of 'Proxy War' activities here... very reminisce of the Cold War.

No, I'm saying that they used rather banal promoting institutions to do more than that. We know the West has used these kind of organizations as a tool to create revolutions clandestinely in the past. These are after all the same groups that were behind the Orange revolution.

If I can fess up that the Eastern resistance is being guided and advised by Russian Special forces agents (no proof, mid you, but it just makes sense in the context, I could be wrong, but I doubt it). You have to be able to see that pattern of Western involvement in the initial uprising and see that it was more that just hippie groups promoting democracy.

Like you said, very much cold war espionage going on here.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I don't follow you there. Russia did not take Crimea, it was given to them and they accepted. Russia did not invade Ukraine, the President of Ukraine called them in as part of a support agreement that has been in place since Ukraine gave up its Nukes. The Wests problem is that they instantly recognized a new regime, that has no real political legitimacy.

Russia Responded to Western aggression, in its own back yard. The West needs to respect Russia's sphere of influence and stay out unless we actually see Russia Rolling countries unprovoked. Its like we have nothing better to do than bait the bear.

Let look at what happens without Russian involvement, East and West Ukraine eventually degrade from sectarian violence, to complete civil war. This is not far fetched as we have seen since the "Cease fire", Russia relaxed its stance and got Eastern Ukrainians to disarm, leading to Eastern Ukraine sectarian Raids. Who wants that? Well the West might because it gives them an excuse to put boots on the ground.

For someone who argued that "very much cold war espionage going on here...." you seem to discount the possibility of Russian involvment of Crimea. I don't hold much credence of that referendum with the overt Russian military pressure. But, that's just me.

Do you think Russia would be doing this if the west's foriegn policy wasn't as week?

So... it's okay for major powers to annex (by whichever means) neighboring countries for the fear of unrest/civil wars?

Ukraine crisis: What the 'Russian soldier' photos say

Three photos provided by Ukrainian government appear to show the same soldier in operations in Georgia in 2008 and in Kramatorsk and Sloviansk in Ukraine in 2014 These photos purport to show the same bearded Russian soldier (circled) in operations in Georgia in 2008 and Kramatorsk and Sloviansk in Ukraine in 2014

Photos released by the Ukrainian government as "proof" of Russian soldiers on the ground in Donetsk leave many questions to be answered.

With thousands of Russian soldiers massed on Ukraine's frontiers, any evidence that they are actually over the border, as was the case in Crimea in March, is being taken very seriously.

What do the photos show?


Heavily armed gunmen in combat uniform, many of them masked.
Four photos provided by Ukrainian government appear to show similarly equipped and armed fighters in the Ukrainian towns of both Kramatorsk and Sloviansk Both masked and unmasked gunmen feature in the photos

The low-quality, annotated images were handed to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe on 16 April, as evidence that Russian "sabotage-reconnaissance groups" had been working with separatists in the Donetsk towns of Kramatorsk and Sloviansk.

According to a New York Times article, the photos and their descriptions were "endorsed by the Obama administration". Distributing the images, the US state department said they confirmed the "connection between Russia and some of the armed militants in eastern Ukraine". (Great, the US sponsors Ukrainian Nazis. Thanks, Obama! - Just for the Dakka Bingo. )

However, the BBC has been unable to verify the pictures and there was no immediate response from the Russian government.

How damning are they?

The Ukrainian press release says the photos show the same heavily bearded gunman taking part in militant operations in Kramatorsk and Sloviansk this year, and in an operation in Georgia in 2008, when Russia fought a brief war with that former Soviet republic.

This would be damning evidence indeed but in the 2014 photos, the man's greying beard appears to be black while in Georgia six years ago, the slimmer-looking man shown has a reddish beard. (Just to play devil's advocate, he might have dyed it. Unlikely, but I know someone will suggest it. )


Is this really the same gunman? (Seriously? They have a gun and similar clothes. Even the equipment is different. )

The Ukrainian government highlights a Russian special forces badge on the sleeve of the gunman in Georgia but such badges can be bought on the internet for less than $5 (£2.90).

Another set of photos purports to show the same masked gunman in both Crimea earlier and in the Donetsk region this month. However, while a similar combat uniform is worn in both photos, the masks are different, as is the way the pistol is worn on his belt.

Apart from the photo said to have been taken in Georgia, all of the images seem to be recent and there is nothing to suggest any of them were taken outside Ukraine.
line break

Do they prove anything?

What comes across from the photos is that at least one unit of heavily armed, well-equipped, pro-Russian paramilitaries has been operating in the Donetsk region.

But it cannot be said for sure that they are actual Russian special forces, as the Ukrainians argue. At the same time, the idea that they might be a local militia from Donetsk is belied by their apparent military professionalism.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said last week there were "no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine" but such denials of military involvement ring hollow for many after Russia's covert actions in Crimea, especially after he subsequently admitted troops had operated there.

Without using photos, Gen Philip Breedlove, Nato's commander in Europe, argued convincingly last week that they must be "Russian forces".

That said, theoretically, the paramilitaries in the photos could be ex-servicemen from Russia or elsewhere. Military veterans of the Soviet war in Afghanistan have been active on both the nationalist side in Ukraine and in patriotic groups in Russia.

Will more evidence emerge?

There are several clear photos of three of the gunmen's faces so their identity may be established eventually. However, the fact that they all have beards may complicate matters.

An article about covert warfare on the US website Defense One argues that iris scanning is a good way to identify masked men but admits the limitations to this approach in Donetsk. "Ukraine isn't Facebook," it notes.

Meanwhile pro-Ukrainian bloggers share photos of militants in the east, both masked and unmasked, in the hope that someone may be able to recognise them.
East Ukraine map

 Jihadin wrote:
Have to hand to Kiev for attempting shenanigans to escalate the involvement of the US

PhantomViper wrote:
It takes a special kind to defend the armed invasion and annexation of part(s) of an independent nation as being a plot by anyone else other than Russia... Truly they are just blameless victims in all of this western plot for world domination...

Funny how the people that defend this kind of behaviour are always comfortably living in those same western nations that they seem to despise so strongly.

BBC wrote:Ukraine's acting president has relaunched military operations against pro-Russian militants in the east after two men, one a local politician, were found "tortured to death".

Oleksandr Turchynov said the politician, named as Vladimir Rybak, was found near rebel-held Sloviansk.

"The terrorists who effectively took the whole Donetsk region hostage have now gone too far," he said.

The move came as US Vice-President Joe Biden was visiting Ukraine.

After meeting Ukrainian leaders in Kiev, Mr Biden called on Russia to "stop talking and start acting" to defuse the Ukraine crisis.

The US and the West accuse Russia of using undercover military to back separatists in eastern Ukraine, where public buildings are occupied in at least nine cities and towns. Russian denies this.

Announcing the decision to resume the military operation - suspended over the Easter period - Mr Turchynov said in a statement: "I call on the security bodies to resume and carry out successful anti-terrorist measures aimed at defending Ukrainian citizens living in the east of Ukraine against terrorists."

Mr Rybak, whose body was found on Tuesday, was described as a local councillor for the Fatherland party in the nearby town of Horlivka. The other man killed has not yet been publicly identified.

"These crimes are being committed with the full support and connivance of the Russian Federation," Mr Turchynov said.

PhantomViper wrote:
It takes a special kind to defend the armed invasion and annexation of part(s) of an independent nation as being a plot by anyone else other than Russia... Truly they are just blameless victims in all of this western plot for world domination...

Funny how the people that defend this kind of behaviour are always comfortably living in those same western nations that they seem to despise so strongly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


What I don't get is how the Ukrainian Nazis can be so deluded. How on earth can they possibly believe they stand a chance against Russia? It's kinda like Georgia all over again; sure, Russia's the aggressor, but why on earth are the Georgians/Ukrainians goading them on?

The Soviet Union may have collapsed 23 years ago but The West kept on fighting the Cold War.

I don't despise my country. I despise my government. Thats a huge fething difference.