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However earlier in this thread wasn't there an allegation made that some of the right wing fascist groups involved may have staged a false flag attack by having snipers target both sides (protesters and Police) and pinned it (initially) on the government? And then there was a leaked telephone phone between EU/NATO officials discussing the possibility that it was a false flag?

So whilst they may not have had military hardware, they were surely armed from the beginning, right?

Also, just in case anyone wanted to talk about double standards for the use of the word "insurgency", here's some headlines from Pravda.ru (one of Russia's oldest news organizations and currently owned by the Communist Party of Russia)

"Criminal Kiev authorities continue to kill civilians, US turns blind eye on murder"

"In Odessa, fascists were gloating over people's deaths"

"A strange, soulless man and his utterly failed presidency" (in regards to Obama)

"Fascist massacre in Odessa: Shocking details unveiled"

"Kiev authorities must be held accountable for genocide"



or statement's like this from ITAR-TASS (the official Russian state news agency...)

"Self-defense forces in the eastern Ukrainian city of Sloviansk helped to release military observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to keep them away from Kiev’s punitive operation in the south-eastern regions of the country"

The same observers which were arrested and detained by said "self defense forces" under Vyacheslav Ponomarev...the self proclaimed mayor of Slovyansk, who had earlier held VICE journalist Simon Ostrovsky.

Dude you're quoting Pravda. Thats like quoting Goebbels.

GODWIN HAMMER BAMM!

 Frazzled wrote:
Dude you're quoting Pravda. Thats like quoting Goebbels.

GODWIN HAMMER BAMM!

Is it? It'd imagine it'd be no different than quoting US cable news like Fox or MSNBC.

I might be "poo pooing" the word "Insurgent" though I say "Foo Foo". I should have clarify how easy its becoming to be influence by media. Calling them "Insurgents" puts them up there with the Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's two different animals. The definition of "Insurgents" applies to both but the ACTIONS of both are in two different columns yet both are the same column by media view. Truth told. I rather deal with "Insurgents" in Ukraine then deal with the ones again in Afghanistan. The ones in Ukraine are at least in my view playing by a set of rules. Till they start using terror tactics then I would lump them in with the Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 Jihadin wrote:
I might be "poo pooing" the word "Insurgent" though I say "Foo Foo". I should have clarify how easy its becoming to be influence by media. Calling them "Insurgents" puts them up there with the Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's two different animals. The definition of "Insurgents" applies to both but the ACTIONS of both are in two different columns yet both are the same column by media view. Truth told. I rather deal with "Insurgents" in Ukraine then deal with the ones again in Afghanistan. The ones in Ukraine are at least in my view playing by a set of rules. Till they start using terror tactics then I would lump them in with the Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Its deliberate. By labelling the pro-Russia people as "Insurgents", they [the media] are attempting to associate them with all the negative connotations of the word that you brought up.

Is this an example of NewSpeak?

I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

But if you and others insist on using it to describe the pro-Russia armed groups, then I must insist that you/others also use it to describe the Kiev aligned armed groups.

Issue on that is those groups are "Pro West"

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

But if you and others insist on using it to describe the pro-Russia armed groups, then I must insist that you/others also use it to describe the Kiev aligned armed groups.

Nobody here is insisting on using it, at least that I've seen. Only saying that it's not an incorrect term.

And let's be real here. There's a world of difference between the armament we're looking at here. The Maidan protestors had molotov cocktails, police shields, and eventually a few AKM's which didn't appear until ~Feb (when the protests started in Nov), while the Eastern seperatists are armed with AK74's and 74M's, PKP Pecheneg's, armored vehicles, MANPADS anti-aircraft systems, military uniforms and helmets, etc.

Well. You have Neo Nazi's in Pro West. Might as well have Insurgents in Pro East. If they're fighting it out what does that leave us on the Bingo Card of Dakka?

 Jihadin wrote:
Well. You have Neo Nazi's in Pro West. Might as well have Insurgents in Pro East. If they're fighting it out what does that leave us on the Bingo Card of Dakka?

Pudding

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

But if you and others insist on using it to describe the pro-Russia armed groups, then I must insist that you/others also use it to describe the Kiev aligned armed groups.

Nobody here is insisting on using it, at least that I've seen. Only saying that it's not an incorrect term.

And let's be real here. There's a world of difference between the armament we're looking at here. The Maidan protestors had molotov cocktails, police shields, and eventually a few AKM's which didn't appear until ~Feb (when the protests started in Nov), while the Eastern seperatists are armed with AK74's and 74M's, PKP Pecheneg's, armored vehicles, MANPADS anti-aircraft systems, military uniforms and helmets, etc.

Some of that will be from the military units that defected, or the weapons and equipment they confiscated from other military units. Just something to bear in mind.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

It's only commonly associated with Terrorism if one uses it incorrectly. What'd you rather have them be called? "Rebels" is just as potentially loaded, "glorious freedom fighters" is silly, and "separatists" could just as easily be seen as something negative.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

But if you and others insist on using it to describe the pro-Russia armed groups, then I must insist that you/others also use it to describe the Kiev aligned armed groups.

Nobody here is insisting on using it, at least that I've seen. Only saying that it's not an incorrect term.

And let's be real here. There's a world of difference between the armament we're looking at here. The Maidan protestors had molotov cocktails, police shields, and eventually a few AKM's which didn't appear until ~Feb (when the protests started in Nov), while the Eastern seperatists are armed with AK74's and 74M's, PKP Pecheneg's, armored vehicles, MANPADS anti-aircraft systems, military uniforms and helmets, etc.

Some of that will be from the military units that defected, or the weapons and equipment they confiscated from other military units. Just something to bear in mind.

Which really has no relevance given that people are trying to equate the Maidan protesters with insurgents. Molotov cocktails, riot shields, and a few AKMs is a far cry from armaments that put the separatists on par with the Ukrainian military.

Well duh, if you have members of the military on your side, of course your equipment is on par with the military.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Well duh, if you have members of the military on your side, of course your equipment is on par with the military.

There were "members of the military" siding with the Maidan protesters, so why were weapons so scarce there?

Really? I genuinely haven't heard that before, do you have a link for it?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

It's only commonly associated with Terrorism if one uses it incorrectly. What'd you rather have them be called? "Rebels" is just as potentially loaded, "glorious freedom fighters" is silly, and "separatists" could just as easily be seen as something negative.

Separatists is more appropriate I think, for members of a Separatist movement.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Dude you're quoting Pravda. Thats like quoting Goebbels.

GODWIN HAMMER BAMM!

Is it? It'd imagine it'd be no different than quoting US cable news like Fox or MSNBC.

Well, Pravda is... not always pravda. It is the propaganda newspaper of the CPRF and thus heavily coloured by the CPRF's conservative ultranationalist viewpoints. They are like Fox News, but than even more conservative and nationalist.
I do not know many people that actually take Pravda that seriously, however, the general tone of many Russian newspapers is little different from Pravda. Godwin's Law and the words 'fascist' and 'liberast' are used very frequently when describing the 'enemies of the sacred Motherland' like those dastardly decadent deceitful American liberasts and the vile Banderite Ukrainian fascist scum Their news value might be very low, but at least they are good for hilarious entertainment with their outrageous claims and making up creative new insults.
Russian news agencies and newspapers that are more reliable and neutral in their statements include RIA Novosti, Komsomolskaya Pravda, Kommersant and RT.

Latest issue of Pravada. Commissar APPROVED!!

http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-mariupol-20-dead-russia-putin-crimea-sevastopol


Says a lot when even Channel 4 can't deny that the Ukrainian military were excessive in their use of force. In one clip when all the Ukrainians are around the bus you can clearly see a few of them turning and shooting into the crowd. The bit where they walk out of the town and all the civilians are jeering them really says volumes about where this is going.

We shouldn't be letting this country join Europe. Much less supporting them with military (some Ukraine units have been filmed driving hummers and with Western camo patterns) and financial aid.

But I guess the Western leaders are perfectly fine letting the eastern slavs kill eachother. Their blood our gold and all that.

I almost want to see the Ukrainian army lose. I can't stand the endless propaganda off the BBC and Channel 4 about how we should show solidarity with the Ukrainian army.

It takes a lot to make Putin look like the good guy, but I think the Kiev Regime is managing that quite convincingly.

Doesn't help that their leader looks like ukrainian Hizenburg.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you'll find that it's people being upset that media is using a technical term in a correct manner.

The point is that its a loaded term with very negative connotations and commonly associated with Terrorism when other, less loaded and incendiary terms will suffice.

But if you and others insist on using it to describe the pro-Russia armed groups, then I must insist that you/others also use it to describe the Kiev aligned armed groups.

Nobody here is insisting on using it, at least that I've seen. Only saying that it's not an incorrect term.

And let's be real here. There's a world of difference between the armament we're looking at here. The Maidan protestors had molotov cocktails, police shields, and eventually a few AKM's which didn't appear until ~Feb (when the protests started in Nov), while the Eastern seperatists are armed with AK74's and 74M's, PKP Pecheneg's, armored vehicles, MANPADS anti-aircraft systems, military uniforms and helmets, etc.

Some of that will be from the military units that defected, or the weapons and equipment they confiscated from other military units. Just something to bear in mind.

Which really has no relevance given that people are trying to equate the Maidan protesters with insurgents. Molotov cocktails, riot shields, and a few AKMs is a far cry from armaments that put the separatists on par with the Ukrainian military.

This might explain it

This once again clearly shows what kind of people are in power now in Ukraine.


This is the governor of Kherson, a region in the south of Ukraine, and he is holding a speech in honour of Victory Day.
And guess what he says?
I am not going to translate everything as it is too ridiculous and would get me too , but it comes down to: ''The Soviet Union was the agressor and tried to enslave Ukraine and the Ukrainian people while falsely claiming to be liberators, while Hitler and the nazis were the true liberators and fought WW2 against the evil Soviet (Russian) agressors to liberate the Ukrainians and other peoples from the tyrant Stalin."
He even has the gut to say that is obvious if you read a history book. Well, I wonder what history book he has been reading? Must have been Mein Kampf.
A governor that calls Hitler a 'liberator'... Even Zhirinovsky is not that crazy...
Glory to the women that snatches the microphone away from him though.

All we need now is a particularly charismatic leader to gain popularity and seize power, and we'll have the Fourth Reich.

In the UK, our left wing mainstream media and political parties are regularly scaremongering over the rise of Right Wing parties and ideology in Europe.

"UKIP is racist, UKIP is fascist, we must stop the rise of far right wing parties!".

Well, here we see the rise of TRUE Far Right Wing parties in the Ukraine, in control of or with significant influence over important GOVERNMENT ministries, including the MILITARY. The military is apparently carrying out massacres, and mobs of Ukrainian's are burning pro-Russia protesters to death.

Popular Ukrainian leaders, including a former Prime Minister, are talking about "exterminating the Russians". Far Right parties are calling for violence against Russians and Jews. Some are even openly praising Hitler, calling him "a liberator" and condemning Russia and Stalin as the "aggressor" of WW2 and a "tyrant"... Conveniently overlooking the fact that Germany invaded Poland, Ukraine, Russia etc first (making Germany the aggressor), and that BOTH Hitler and Stalin were murderous tyrants responsible for horrific crimes throughout Europe.


And yet we're getting barely a peep out of our MSM and political establishments on Ukraine's Far Right movement. WHY???


I'm sick of our media and political establishments' empty rhetoric and scaremongering over Right Wing political groups. We're expected to believe that UKIP is racist and fascist for wanting political independence for the UK from the European Union and proper immigration controls on our borders so we can control who is allowed to come to this country. Yet when faced with real and violent Far Right extremism in Ukraine, all they have to say is "Russia must respect the soveriegn independence of Ukraine! Russia must be punished!"

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
All we need now is a particularly charismatic leader to gain popularity and seize power, and we'll have the Fourth Reich.

In the UK, our left wing mainstream media and political parties are regularly scaremongering over the rise of Right Wing parties and ideology in Europe.

"UKIP is racist, UKIP is fascist, we must stop the rise of far right wing parties!".

Well, here we see the rise of TRUE Far Right Wing parties in the Ukraine, in control of or with significant influence over important GOVERNMENT ministries, including the MILITARY. The military is apparently carrying out massacres, and mobs of Ukrainian's are burning pro-Russia protesters to death.

Popular Ukrainian leaders, including a former Prime Minister, are talking about "exterminating the Russians". Far Right parties are calling for violence against Russians and Jews. Some are even openly praising Hitler, calling him "a liberator" and condemning Russia and Stalin as the "aggressor" of WW2 and a "tyrant"... Conveniently overlooking the fact that Germany invaded Poland, Ukraine, Russia etc first (making Germany the aggressor), and that BOTH Hitler and Stalin were murderous tyrants responsible for horrific crimes throughout Europe.


And yet we're getting barely a peep out of our MSM and political establishments on Ukraine's Far Right movement. WHY???


I'm sick of our media and political establishments' empty rhetoric and scaremongering over Right Wing political groups. We're expected to believe that UKIP is racist and fascist for wanting political independence for the UK from the European Union and proper immigration controls on our borders so we can control who is allowed to come to this country. Yet when faced with real and violent Far Right extremism in Ukraine, all they have to say is "Russia must respect the soveriegn independence of Ukraine! Russia must be punished!"

Don't forget Golden Dawn in Greece

Swedish newspaper (and yes, proper newspaper, as opposed to tabloid) DN's (in Swedish, sorry) reporter in Mariupol's apparently gotten conflicting versions of the events, with one eyewittness (who was wounded in the attack, regardless of who did it) saying the police fought on the side of the military against a bunch of people who showed up in minivans with automatic weapons and started attacking the police station and only opened fire on what is described as a "mob" when they attacked the soldiers, whereas other unnamed sources are saying that the army started shooting into the mass of people for no apparent reason.

So yeah, the reason "mainstream media" isn't condemning anything right now is probably because we've not actually got any clue what happened yet. You're complaining that "mainstream media" is doing it's job as news agencies and not reporting more than what is known. Further, you're doing it while condemning alleged bias in the reporting of those news agencies, while blindly accepting the word of the pro-Russian side that what they said happened is true.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
All we need now is a particularly charismatic leader to gain popularity and seize power, and we'll have the Fourth Reich.

In the UK, our left wing mainstream media and political parties are regularly scaremongering over the rise of Right Wing parties and ideology in Europe.

"UKIP is racist, UKIP is fascist, we must stop the rise of far right wing parties!".

Well, here we see the rise of TRUE Far Right Wing parties in the Ukraine, in control of or with significant influence over important GOVERNMENT ministries, including the MILITARY. The military is apparently carrying out massacres, and mobs of Ukrainian's are burning pro-Russia protesters to death.

Are you honestly arguing that Jobbik and Golden Dawn aren't true far-right parties just beacuse they're not burning people to death (which, as far as I remember, wasn't actually done by the Ukranian state or sanctioned by them)? We're talking about a party that thought it'd be a good idea to call for the registration of all Jews as "public enemies" in Parliament and a party that called Hitler "a great social reformer". If it's such an outrage that one politician calls Hitler a "liberator" (and it absolutely is, don't get me wrong), then it's inconsistent at best and outright dishonest at worst to question whether or not Golden Dawn is a far-right party.

Further, you're doing it while condemning alleged bias in the reporting of those news agencies, while blindly accepting the word of the pro-Russian side that what they said happened is true.

No, I'm not. I KNOW both sides are biased and I don't take either side at face value, unlike some in this thread.

Its established fact that pro-Russian protesters were burned to death.
Its established fact that Ukrainian fascist groups have representatives in the new Kiev government, and have influence if not direct control over the military.
Its established fact that Tymoshenko said in a leaked telephone call that she wanted "to kill the Russians."

Not once did I say the Ukrainian government was responsible for burning those people to death. In the video clips of the incident, its clearly not the police and military throwing the molotov bombs, its plain clothed civilians. i.e. the far right groups.

And I also mentioned western political leaders, not just the media. I've heard our Prime Minister David Cameron and Foreign Secretary William Hague condemn Russia's "acts of aggression" and violation of Ukraine's sovereignty, but I've not heard them condemn Ukraine's far right groups, the violence committed by those groups and the excessive force used by the Kiev government.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Are you honestly arguing that Jobbik and Golden Dawn aren't true far-right parties just because ...

No, I'm not.

Please point out where I said "Jobbik and Golden Dawnare not true Far Right parties."