Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

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**easysauce**

Frazzled wrote:

You must have forgotten about that whole Korean War, Vietnam War things...

Nope, just there are far too many examples to name lol

**Redcruisair**

Surprised no one brought this up yet. Apparently armed rebels led by a man calling himself “demon” recently attacked a military checkpoint, killing at least 14 men and wounding 27 others.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27515514

A dawn attack on a checkpoint in eastern Ukraine has left at least 14 soldiers dead, in the worst loss of life for government forces to date.

Heavily armed militants attacked the checkpoint in the Volnovakha area, in one of four attacks reported overnight in eastern Ukraine.

It is unclear who attacked the checkpoint, with one Ukrainian officer telling the BBC it was not separatists.

The attacks come just three days before Ukraine's presidential election.

Ukraine's interim Prime Minister, Arseny Yatseniuk, has called for an emergency session of the UN Security Council, saying he has evidence of Russian involvement in the violence.

Russia appears to be withdrawing troops from its border with Ukraine, easing fears of a military intervention like in Crimea in March.

Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said in a tweet that Russian troop activity near the Ukraine border might suggest that some Russian forces were preparing to pull back.

Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops near the border to withdraw to their bases earlier this week. Correspondents say removing the troops - estimated to number 40,000 - could help de-escalate the Ukraine crisis.

Ukrainians go to the polls on Sunday to choose a new president but voting in Donetsk and Luhansk has been seriously disrupted by the insurgency there.

The election was called after the last elected President, Viktor Yanukovych, was deposed in February amid mass protests against his pro-Russian policies.

Photographs taken by an Associated Press news agency crew show bodies lying in a field or inside a car outside the village of Blahodatne, which is near the town of Volnovakha.

Three charred armoured infantry vehicles, their turrets blown away by powerful explosions, and several burned lorries could also be seen.

Residents told AP the attackers had used an armoured bank lorry which the unsuspecting Ukrainian soldiers had waved through the checkpoint. The attackers then reportedly shot down the soldiers at point-blank range.

BBC journalists who reached the scene were not allowed to film by Ukrainian soldiers. The BBC's Olga Ivshina found 27 wounded survivors at the central hospital in Volnovakha.

Local people said fighting had erupted at 05:00 local time (02:00 GMT). They said they had heard explosions and gunfire, and some spoke of seeing many wounded later.

The defence ministry blamed the latest attack on "terrorists" - the term commonly used by Ukrainian officials for armed pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk and the neighbouring Luhansk region.

Rebel claim
Speaking on condition of anonymity, an army major who spoke to the survivors of the attack told our correspondent he was sure that the attackers were not Donetsk separatists but "mercenaries".

Donetsk rebel leader Pavel Gubarev went on Facebook to deny that separatist forces had attacked the soldiers.

However, a self-styled rebel commander in a nearby town, Horlivka, told AP that his forces had carried out the assault and had seized weapons.

"We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land of the Donetsk Republic,'' said the commander, who wore a balaclava and identified himself by his nom de guerre, Bess ("demon" in Russian).

Separatists have been skirmishing with security forces in Donetsk for weeks but this is the deadliest attack on soldiers to date.

Ukrainian security chief Andriy Parubiy said four attacks had taken place overnight, three of them repelled with loss of life and one - in the Luhansk region - was still going on.

In another development, residents of a village near Sloviansk, a town in Donetsk often seen as the separatists' stronghold, complained of shelling that appeared to come from government positions.

"Why they are hitting us?'' asked Zinaida Patskan, 80, outside her ruined house in Semenovka. "We are civilians!"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pictures taken in the aftermath of the attack.

A pro-Russian gunman shows off weapons reportedly seized from the Ukrainian soldiers during the attack

**AlmightyWalrus**

Now I've got little to no knowledge of these things, but what sort of firepower are we talking in order to take on IFVs like that? RPGs or something heavier?

**Grey Templar**

RPGs and Molotov Cocktails.

**Jihadin**

Those little green tubes in the weapon pic is their version of an AT4

**Kanluwen**

Jihadin wrote:
Those little green tubes in the weapon pic is their version of an AT4

Isn't it the AT4-CS?

**Jihadin**

More likely but we can't read the data plate

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Jihadin wrote:
Those little green tubes in the weapon pic is their version of an AT4

According to the article, those weapon were seized from Government/Military forces by the Separatist Militants.

**Kanluwen**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Those little green tubes in the weapon pic is their version of an AT4

According to the article, those weapon were seized from Government/Military forces by the Separatist Militants.

Right, and the Ukrainian government bought up a ton of AT4s from Sweden(where the AT4 originated at Saab Bofors Dynamics).

**Ensis Ferrae**

And if you look in the bottom corner of the picture, there is a US Government Issue MRE

(yeah, I know we sell them elsewhere too... i just thought it funny, and will fuel the conspiracy theorist fires)

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

My point was that according to the article, the collection of weapons pictured in the article were not used to carry out the attack, but were in fact seized afterwards.

**Jihadin**

That was one big Fracking check point

**Iron_Captain**

Jihadin wrote:
Putin IMHO has outdid Obama

**Wyrmalla**

Damn, I just realised how annoyed all the world's Geography teachers are about now (well those that recognise the annexation). That's a lot of new textbooks and maps they'll have to be ordering. Tsk. think of the little guy Russia!

**-Shrike-**

From the BBC again. Pictures can be found at the link.

Ukraine crisis: Battle to control Donetsk airport
2 hours ago

Mark Lowen said rebels seemed to be grouping together to seize control
Ukrainian troops have launched air attacks to regain control of Donetsk airport from pro-Russia rebels.

A fierce gun battle ensued, and smoke can be seen rising from the area.

The fighting comes as the man tipped to become Ukraine's new President, Petro Poroshenko, said he wanted to talk to Russia to end the crisis.

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was "open to dialogue" with Mr Poroshenko but military action against separatists must end.

Mr Poroshenko said he hoped to meet Russian leaders early next month, after a trip to Poland where he will meet the US president and EU leaders.

However, he warned he would take a tough line on armed militiamen.

Petro Poroshenko: "Without Russia it would be much less effective or almost impossible to speak about the security in the whole region"
He said: "Their goal is to turn Donbass [east Ukraine] into Somalia. I will not let anyone do this to our state and I hope that Russia will support my approach."

Meanwhile election observers said Sunday's vote was a genuine one that largely met international standards.

The mission from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) also said it gave the new president "legitimacy" to open a dialogue with separatists in the east.

Welcoming the election as "a major step", the EU said it was looking forward "to further concrete steps on this constructive path, including the use of leverage on armed groups to de-escalate the situation on the ground".

Mr Poroshenko, 48, currently has about 54% of the vote, with 75% of the ballots counted, and would not need a run-off. Former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko is a distant second on 13%.

Media reaction to election

"Has Ukraine been reborn?" asks the Ukrainian edition of Komsomolskaya Pravda. It says the election "will have a special place in the history books". But the paper notes that Crimeans did not vote and the voting in Donbass and Luhansk - formerly Ukraine's "electoral core", proceeded with "great difficulty".

"We have survived," proclaims popular Ukrainian daily Segodnya.

Claims in the Russian media that Ukraine is overrun by extremists and neo-Nazis are ridiculed by some social media commentators. The two right-wing candidates - Dmytro Yarosh and Oleh Tyahnybok - polled less than 2% in total.

Prominent Ukrainian journalist Mustafa Nayyem proclaims an "epic fail" of Russian propaganda. "Vladimir Putin won't sleep tonight," he predicts.

A turning point, or business as usual?

Pro-Russia rebels stormed Sergei Prokofiev Donetsk airport on Monday after it became clear that Mr Poroshenko was heading for outright victory in Ukraine's presidential election.

Fighter jets circled over the airport as attack helicopters fired rockets at the building. There are no confirmed reports of casualties.

Ukraine's interim government is engaged in an offensive in the east to quash the uprising that has left scores dead.

There is hope that the Ukrainian election will lead to a de-escalation of the crisis
Pro-Russian separatists severely disrupted voting there. No polling stations were open in Donetsk city, and across the region.

On Monday, Mr Poroshenko said "the anti-terrorist operation cannot and should not last two or three months".

"It should and will last hours."

Addressing reporters in Moscow, the Russian foreign minister said continuing military operations against the separatists would be a "colossal mistake".

Mr Lavrov said: Russia was "ready for dialogue with Kiev's representatives, with Petro Poroshenko" and EU and US mediation were not needed.

He said: "As our president [Vladimir Putin] has said, we shall treat the results of the expression of will of the Ukrainian people with respect."

Sunday's election came three months after pro-Moscow President Viktor Yanukovych fled Kiev amid bloody street protests and calls for closer ties with the EU.

Since then, Russia has annexed the Crimean peninsula in southern Ukraine and armed separatists in the eastern provinces of Luhansk and Donetsk have declared independence.

The part in bold worries me... It sounds as if he plans to wipe out the separatists.

**Iron_Captain**

Well, the election have been somewhat reassuring. The support of the (Western) Ukrainian people for extremist parties is not as great as I had feared. Now Poroshenko only need to purge the fascist scum from those influential positions.
He should also stop the military operation and start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk. Unfortenately, it does not look like he is planning that. That is bad. It means there will be only more bloodshed before the seperatists emerge victorious. Ukraine simply does not have the equipment and manpower neccessary to deal with the seperatists. Poroshenko stating that it should be ended in hours is just him talkin big to make himself look good and in control. The truth is that Kiev is everything except in control.

**Kanluwen**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, the election have been somewhat reassuring. The support of the (Western) Ukrainian people for extremist parties is not as great as I had feared. Now Poroshenko only need to purge the fascist scum from those influential positions.
He should also stop the military operation and start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk. Unfortenately, it does not look like he is planning that. That is bad. It means there will be only more bloodshed before the seperatists emerge victorious. Ukraine simply does not have the equipment and manpower neccessary to deal with the seperatists. Poroshenko stating that it should be ended in hours is just him talkin big to make himself look good and in control. The truth is that Kiev is everything except in control.

Keep spouting that stuff, Puppetin.

There is NO reason for him to "start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk". These "pro-Russian separatists" blocked people from voting, and then this morning seized an airport.

You don't negotiate with that kind of nonsense.

**-Shrike-**

Kanluwen wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, the election have been somewhat reassuring. The support of the (Western) Ukrainian people for extremist parties is not as great as I had feared. Now Poroshenko only need to purge the fascist scum from those influential positions.
He should also stop the military operation and start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk. Unfortenately, it does not look like he is planning that. That is bad. It means there will be only more bloodshed before the seperatists emerge victorious. Ukraine simply does not have the equipment and manpower neccessary to deal with the seperatists. Poroshenko stating that it should be ended in hours is just him talkin big to make himself look good and in control. The truth is that Kiev is everything except in control.

Keep spouting that stuff, Puppetin.

There is NO reason for him to "start dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk". These "pro-Russian separatists" blocked people from voting, and then this morning seized an airport.

You don't negotiate with that kind of nonsense.

What else do you do? Kill them? I'm glad to see that the election went well, and there are signs of co-operation between Russia and Poroshenko, but he should really be figuring out how to get their support, rather than trying to fight them.

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There have been far too many deaths in Ukraine already. We don't need any more.

**djones520**

If you have to kill them? Yes. But you do exactly what he is doing. Go in with force. Apprehend who you can. You cannot deal with these types with kid gloves.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Last I heard the rebels prevented people from voting in their federal election.

Also heard something about a Russian air-strike within Ukraine but don't know if that's confirmed.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Last I heard the rebels prevented people from voting in their federal election.

Also heard something about a Russian air-strike within Ukraine but don't know if that's confirmed.

I thought it was the Kiev government, bombing the separatists.

Unless you're referring to an entirely different incident.

**Kanluwen**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Last I heard the rebels prevented people from voting in their federal election.

Also heard something about a Russian air-strike within Ukraine but don't know if that's confirmed.

I thought it was the Kiev government, bombing the separatists.

Unless you're referring to an entirely different incident.

Stop calling it "the Kiev government". That stopped being cute ages ago.

It is the Ukrainian government. Their populace literally just had an election, which resulted in Poroshenko getting elected.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Last I heard the rebels prevented people from voting in their federal election.

Also heard something about a Russian air-strike within Ukraine but don't know if that's confirmed.

I thought it was the Kiev government, bombing the separatists.

Unless you're referring to an entirely different incident.

Stop calling it "the Kiev government". That stopped being cute ages ago.

It is the Ukrainian government. Their populace literally just had an election, which resulted in Poroshenko getting elected.

Wasn't aware the election is over and the result announced. Havn't kept up with the news the last couple of days as it was my birthday recently. And as far as I was concerned, "Kiev Government/Regime" was entirely appropriate for an unelected illegitimate government imposed via a coup, opposed by half the country. I don't care if you didn't think the term was "cute".

Does this new President have broad support from across the country, West and East?

**Jihadin**

That be a big fat NO....as the duck kicks the ball into the hole

**Kanluwen**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Last I heard the rebels prevented people from voting in their federal election.

Also heard something about a Russian air-strike within Ukraine but don't know if that's confirmed.

I thought it was the Kiev government, bombing the separatists.

Unless you're referring to an entirely different incident.

Stop calling it "the Kiev government". That stopped being cute ages ago.

It is the Ukrainian government. Their populace literally just had an election, which resulted in Poroshenko getting elected.

Wasn't aware the election is over and the result announced. Havn't kept up with the news the last couple of days as it was my birthday recently. And as far as I was concerned, "Kiev Government/Regime" was entirely appropriate for an unelected illegitimate government imposed via a coup, opposed by half the country. I don't care if you didn't think the term was "cute".

Election is over. Early results were in and Poroshenko was elected.

Does this new President have broad support from across the country, West and East?

84% voter turn out, 50ish % early vote count was for Poroshenko with Tymoshenko at something like 14%.

The only places where I am aware that were not able to vote were held in pro-Russian territory where pro-Russian gunmen were keeping the populace from voting.

**Wyrmalla**

Given that the east of the country's full of separatists how many of those who don't care for the president actually voted? One view about the east right now put forward by a blogger is that how the situation works is some pro-Russians roll into an impoverished area, stir up the locals a bit, then just throws guns and a stable wage at them so they join the separatist movement. She did point out though that this may wind up blowing up on the guys that're funding the separatist faces however when these fighters go back to the now Russian areas and start stirring up trouble there once all the issues in the West are over with. That and that in Russia Putin's stirred up so much propaganda that he's going to lose face if he doesn't run Ukraine into the ground, youknow with all this talk of revenge against the traitors and all that.

Frankly I can agree with what's been said about the nukes, if the Ukrainians still had them then I'm guessing that the Russians wouldn't have been so flagrant with the whole invasion. Then again how many countries broke their defence treaties with Ukraine because they didn't want to piss off big bag Russia? Sad really, I was planning a trip to the country at some point, with all the crap that's gone down there I suppose that won't be happening for a while.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Kanluwen wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Last I heard the rebels prevented people from voting in their federal election.

Also heard something about a Russian air-strike within Ukraine but don't know if that's confirmed.

I thought it was the Kiev government, bombing the separatists.

Unless you're referring to an entirely different incident.

Stop calling it "the Kiev government". That stopped being cute ages ago.

It is the Ukrainian government. Their populace literally just had an election, which resulted in Poroshenko getting elected.

Wasn't aware the election is over and the result announced. Havn't kept up with the news the last couple of days as it was my birthday recently. And as far as I was concerned, "Kiev Government/Regime" was entirely appropriate for an unelected illegitimate government imposed via a coup, opposed by half the country. I don't care if you didn't think the term was "cute".

Election is over. Early results were in and Poroshenko was elected.

Does this new President have broad support from across the country, West and East?

84% voter turn out, 50ish % early vote count was for Poroshenko with Tymoshenko at something like 14%.

The only places where I am aware that were not able to vote were held in pro-Russian territory where pro-Russian gunmen were keeping the populace from voting.

Well, the Moscow troops are using their guns to prevent voting because they need to protect their city-state from fascism.

**sebster**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Does this new President have broad support from across the country, West and East?

The red bits voted for Poroshenko. The green bit voted for Dobkin.

It's not quite Reagan in 1984, but it's close to that.

**Ketara**

sebster wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Does this new President have broad support from across the country, West and East?

The red bits voted for Poroshenko. The green bit voted for Dobkin.

It's not quite Reagan in 1984, but it's close to that.

It should be remembered though, that whilst Poroshenko is now legitimate, the rest of the Ukrainian Government is not. The elections were simply presidential elections, not general ones. Arseniy Yatsenyuk and the rest of the Kiev revolutionary administration are still holding the reins of government, albeit in concert with Poroshenko's advice/input.

-Shrike- wrote:

What else do you do? Kill them? I'm glad to see that the election went well, and there are signs of co-operation between Russia and Poroshenko, but he should really be figuring out how to get their support, rather than trying to fight them.

I read an analysis the other day suggesting that by gearing up as if to invade Eastern Ukraine, and then backing down, Putin in effect shifted all debate away from his seizure of the Crimea. The result being, by the time he's now toning down operations in the Ukraine, people have already more or less accepted his occupation of the Crimea as a done thing not even worthy of discussion anymore.

Clever bugger.

**sebster**

Ketara wrote:
It should be remembered though, that whilst Poroshenko is now legitimate, the rest of the Ukrainian Government is not. The elections were simply presidential elections, not general ones. Arseniy Yatsenyuk and the rest of the Kiev revolutionary administration are still holding the reins of government, albeit in concert with Poroshenko's advice/input.

Sure, but this vote can hardly be seen as a rejection of that government. Poroshenko may have chosen his words carefully regarding aligning the Ukraine with the West, but he's a mile away from a pro-Russian candidate. The pro-Russian candidate... well his electoral triumph is the little green bit.