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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 01:24:17
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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He's so ronely...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 01:37:05
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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I don't think Putin sleeps.
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Prestor Jon wrote:Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 01:38:15
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Good point. He's too badass for that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 02:59:08
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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IIRC from that pic Putin was first out follow by the rest. Entering left, extending left, and then walking down
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 07:39:04
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds
Eschara
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Guys, I've watched this thread from the beginning, and I can tell you that I am thoroughly interested in what both sides have to say. I would like to say that my view is rather ambivalent, but some members of this discussion are thundering the so-called unquestionable truth, that it makes me quite sad, really.
To start this, I'd like to start talking a bit about myself. I'm 17 and currently live in Northern Ireland (for 8 years now). I was originally born in Kishinev, Moldova and come from a family of simple decent folk, my parent- one a language teacher another a botanist and my grandparents used to be leaders of one of the big agricultural organisation in the Criuleni district- known as a Kolhoz. They are the nicest and most hardworking pair of 70-year olds that I know (Interesting fact- my grandpa won a prize for being one of the first to install solar panels in Moldova). Anyway, I would like to say that I, in heart am quite humanitarian and caring when it comes to other people. When I first heard of the west and that I'd be going there, I had such amazing expectations. WOW- high tech gadgets, upper-class education, friendly people. By the years, most people were friendly enough, but my view of the west started tarnishing after several incidents of racist verbal abuse, subtle forms of racism at work and in the classroom- such as race related jokes. Everything was a bit sour for a couple of years and after listing about the wars in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Egypt and the unnecessary bloodshed carried there, I would like to say that my heart cried with indignation when I've heard that the noble civilized America and some of her allies still waged war- in an age of innovation like this?!
Anyway, here in my house at Armagh, I have a satellite installed in and I watch these news channels- BBC, iTV, CNN, Channel 4, Pervii Canal, Rossya 24 and a German one that I'm not sure of the name (I can speak Romanian, Russian and German fluently- currently learning French.). Now I would like to say that (watching the news very frequently from January, the efforts made by the West to destabilize the situation, by imposing economic sancions on Russia, which never started this conflict or was involved in this conflict at first. I'd like to raise a few point about this situation that I feel are important.
1) Crimea was never invaded by Russia as many people claim. The Russians had a military and naval base there on contract, and had every right to stay where they were. To invade a country is to bring in your army and forcibly take or do something. The Russians didn't do that and there's plenty of evidence to support this, even for the local election. So many people say that the Crimean elections was held at the point of the Russian Kalashnikov, but those are plain lies, because I have seen at least 14 different videos showing how Crimeans happily come into the balloting stations to vote for whomever. No militants of any kind were inside or outside the building. The only guards that were seen were those guarding the checkpoints going into sevastopol, SO that no Right-Wing activists tried to target the balloting stations.
2)Remember Odessa on the 2nd of May? Perhaps not so much. BBC and CNN said a few words on the day I remember -clashes between right-sector and separatist groups. AND that's about all that they've talked about it. The real story gentlemen is that in that commerce building was initially occupied by about 120 or so activists who wanted to make petitions for the Kiev Government. How was that answered? A ring of a few hundred right-sector fanatics stormed the building and pushed all those activist right in- and I'll tell you, those people inside were NOT terrorists but simple, common folk like me, discussing the future of their city. 44 innocent people were killed that day, echoing an event of WW2 at Hatini, when Badera- right-sector "hero and champion" burned 137 people alive" in an old fortress. Numerous videos have been seen showing teenagers of my age, pouring ethanol and napalm into bottles for molotovs. Aged men have been seen Wearing blue and yellow armbands shooting anyone clinging on the ledges and trying to come down on makeshift ropes. Yous in the West probably never heard of this and think that I'm ling, but watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PVMDUU_UXY and look at 4:10 and you will clearly see my point. 44 innocent people died that day, and BBC and the CNN could have at least hold some condolences for the families of the deceased. The people in Lugansk, Donetsk and Sevastopol did- but who cares right? They're "terrorist scum".
3) Also about the "terrorist scum" afore mentioned so interestingly by someone. The people guarding Donbass now are -as the BBC also described them- scared nervous people who fear for what's to come next. The truth is, that these people are not separatists or terrorist- they are old retired military folk, or simple citizens who had no choice but to take up arms and defend their republic. Most are armed with old hunting rilfles and shotguns, and those silly stripy undershirts that you mentioned earlier- mad of somewhat horsehair? are just simple apparel worn in the eastern countries. I have and sometimes wear one (they are very cozy- which is why they use them in the navy also- my granduncle served in the navy for 50 years in Vladivostok and gave me mine), but one thing these men are- is brave. One account just yesterday shows a man (formerly an accountant, picking up arms because his best friend was shot dead by overpassing aircraft fire from the Ukrainian army. Also lately in the news, the Ukraininan army has started employing one of the heaviest classes of mortar- Tulipan, I believe- which are meant to be used in case of a nuclear strike! Against what- old done men defending barricades and the 9,418,034 (probably slightly less now0 civilian population who Doesn't agree with what the government is saying. 120 and more deaths have been confirmed and shown with clear video evidence of the dead (lying on the road to Kramatorsk airport- courtesy of right-sector snipers) and the dead and dying in the hospitals of Lughansk and Donetsk which are bombed daily. Did you hear of this?! The civilians are scared and hiding in basements- the children are crying for their dead fathers and mothers who are what- collateral damage?! If someone killed my parents- no offence- I will demand justice, and by the God above, they will be judged for the wicked things these Ukrainian troops do. Now I agree the defenders have caused some deaths on the ukranian side- but they only killed soldiers in defense of themselves and they weren't half as many casualties caused by the Ukranian Arm- sorry "National Guard" as if they guarded their own nation. If you think what the defenders are doing is wrong- the I hope I'll never have to fight in a war on your side- for you either have to be craven not to defend your country or
I'm just a simple man. I support no side, but I tell you this- start paying attention to what's really happening- innocent mean, women and children are dying- for legally proclaiming themselves a separate republic! If you westerners wanted to destabilize the situation and stop the bloodshed, the Western powers should tell the bloodthirsters in KIev to stop this "clensing" operation. This is not even war. This is plain genocide. I'm sick of the political differences, the backstabbing and propaganda war. All I want of our governments is one thing- to stop this massacre in a time as civilized as this- and the everyone would gain from it!
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In dedicato imperatum ultra articulo mortis |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 07:48:02
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:Guys, I've watched this thread from the beginning, and I can tell you that I am thoroughly interested in what both sides have to say. I would like to say that my view is rather ambivalent...
....If you westerners wanted to destabilize the situation and stop the bloodshed, the Western powers should tell the bloodthirsters in KIev to stop this "clensing" operation. This is not even war. This is plain genocide.
Not seeing much that's ambivalent or even handed about that post. The phrase, 'noble civilized America' amused me though.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/07 07:48:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 10:05:07
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds
Eschara
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I'm just pointing out some wrongdoings. I prefer the side that doesn't want trouble and as much as you might not believe it, Russia is trying to do that- Lavror and Putin sending quite a number of requests to both the EU and Kiev government to stop the violence
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In dedicato imperatum ultra articulo mortis |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 13:47:12
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Ketara wrote: Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:Guys, I've watched this thread from the beginning, and I can tell you that I am thoroughly interested in what both sides have to say. I would like to say that my view is rather ambivalent...
....If you westerners wanted to destabilize the situation and stop the bloodshed, the Western powers should tell the bloodthirsters in KIev to stop this "clensing" operation. This is not even war. This is plain genocide.
Not seeing much that's ambivalent or even handed about that post. The phrase, 'noble civilized America' amused me though. 
Me too. America is not noble, nor civilised.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/07 13:47:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 14:31:35
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 14:38:41
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Barbarism and awesomeness are not mutually exclusive.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 17:14:07
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Seaward wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:That depends entirely on your point of view. Claiming that the US supplying the Ukrainian military does not need lead to violence is rather funny.
As you seem to know, could you tell me what we're supplying them with? All those AK-74s we make? SU-25s? Those weird striped undershirts?
Most importantly, the US supplies food for the Ukrainian military, as Ukraine can't even feed its own soldiers. It also supplies helmets and body armour and other non-lethal stuff. Also, don't insult the telnyaskha. Telnyaskha is manliest of all manly clothing. Automatically Appended Next Post: sebster wrote: The Army was sent in to kill them. Wtf did you expect them to do? Not fight back? I expect them to fight. The weirdness is coming from people on this forum who seem to have ended up concluding that occupying government buildings by force is reasonable, but government military action to retake those buildings is terrible.
No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate. Immediatly sending in the army and bombing civilian targets and pretty much starting a civil war is not something that a democratic government is supposed to do. Using so much violence against anti-government protesters is something that fits more with Stalin or other authoritarian regimes. I find it weird that you can not understand this. I take it that you are also a staunch supporter of Bashar al-Assad and Muammar Khadaffi? They also loved to use violence against protesters...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/07 19:02:24
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 03:17:32
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I'm sorry but I haven't seen anyone pull out the genocide card until this guy. Well written post but hardly "ambivalent" or even realistic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 10:37:58
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Iron_Captain wrote: Seaward wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:That depends entirely on your point of view. Claiming that the US supplying the Ukrainian military does not need lead to violence is rather funny.
As you seem to know, could you tell me what we're supplying them with? All those AK-74s we make? SU-25s? Those weird striped undershirts?
Most importantly, the US supplies food for the Ukrainian military, as Ukraine can't even feed its own soldiers. It also supplies helmets and body armour and other non-lethal stuff.
Also, don't insult the telnyaskha. Telnyaskha is manliest of all manly clothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
The Army was sent in to kill them. Wtf did you expect them to do? Not fight back?
I expect them to fight. The weirdness is coming from people on this forum who seem to have ended up concluding that occupying government buildings by force is reasonable, but government military action to retake those buildings is terrible.
No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate. Immediatly sending in the army and bombing civilian targets and pretty much starting a civil war is not something that a democratic government is supposed to do. Using so much violence against anti-government protesters is something that fits more with Stalin or other authoritarian regimes. I find it weird that you can not understand this.
I take it that you are also a staunch supporter of Bashar al-Assad and Muammar Khadaffi? They also loved to use violence against protesters...
I'm fully expecting Whembly to come in and explain the difference between an angry mob of protesters and armed insurgents (never forget!).
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 14:51:04
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Iron_Captain wrote: Seaward wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:That depends entirely on your point of view. Claiming that the US supplying the Ukrainian military does not need lead to violence is rather funny.
As you seem to know, could you tell me what we're supplying them with? All those AK-74s we make? SU-25s? Those weird striped undershirts?
Most importantly, the US supplies food for the Ukrainian military, as Ukraine can't even feed its own soldiers. It also supplies helmets and body armour and other non-lethal stuff.
Also, don't insult the telnyaskha. Telnyaskha is manliest of all manly clothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
The Army was sent in to kill them. Wtf did you expect them to do? Not fight back?
I expect them to fight. The weirdness is coming from people on this forum who seem to have ended up concluding that occupying government buildings by force is reasonable, but government military action to retake those buildings is terrible.
No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate. Immediatly sending in the army and bombing civilian targets and pretty much starting a civil war is not something that a democratic government is supposed to do. Using so much violence against anti-government protesters is something that fits more with Stalin or other authoritarian regimes. I find it weird that you can not understand this.
I take it that you are also a staunch supporter of Bashar al-Assad and Muammar Khadaffi? They also loved to use violence against protesters...
I'm fully expecting Whembly to come in and explain the difference between an angry mob of protesters and armed insurgents (never forget!).
Both sides have both.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:44:36
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: Iron_Captain wrote: Seaward wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:That depends entirely on your point of view. Claiming that the US supplying the Ukrainian military does not need lead to violence is rather funny.
As you seem to know, could you tell me what we're supplying them with? All those AK-74s we make? SU-25s? Those weird striped undershirts?
Most importantly, the US supplies food for the Ukrainian military, as Ukraine can't even feed its own soldiers. It also supplies helmets and body armour and other non-lethal stuff.
Also, don't insult the telnyaskha. Telnyaskha is manliest of all manly clothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
The Army was sent in to kill them. Wtf did you expect them to do? Not fight back?
I expect them to fight. The weirdness is coming from people on this forum who seem to have ended up concluding that occupying government buildings by force is reasonable, but government military action to retake those buildings is terrible.
No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate. Immediatly sending in the army and bombing civilian targets and pretty much starting a civil war is not something that a democratic government is supposed to do. Using so much violence against anti-government protesters is something that fits more with Stalin or other authoritarian regimes. I find it weird that you can not understand this.
I take it that you are also a staunch supporter of Bashar al-Assad and Muammar Khadaffi? They also loved to use violence against protesters...
I'm fully expecting Whembly to come in and explain the difference between an angry mob of protesters and armed insurgents (never forget!).
Both sides have both.
The difference between angry protesters and armed insurgents is very small. All it takes is a gun.
And the protesters did not arm themselves until the military was sent in.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:54:16
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Iron_Captain wrote:
No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate.
Which is exactly what happened. The terrorists who seized governmental buildings refused to negotiate with either side and refused to join a discussion with all involved parties.
Taking military actions to either force them to surrender or kill all of them is totally legit as they have proven themselves to be terrorists and thus lose all protection they had.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 15:59:52
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Sigvatr wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:
No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate.
Which is exactly what happened. The terrorists who seized governmental buildings refused to negotiate with either side and refused to join a discussion with all involved parties.
Taking military actions to either force them to surrender or kill all of them is totally legit as they have proven themselves to be terrorists and thus lose all protection they had.
Again, the government did not even attempt to negotiate with the seperatists. It sent in the military straight away. Please get your facts and your definition of 'terrorist' straight.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:04:06
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Iron_Captain wrote:Again, the government did not even attempt to negotiate with the seperatists. Again, the terrorists did not even attempt to negotiate with the other parties. Get your facts straight. They said "We want Russia!" and denied every single attempt by either side to get into contact for negotiations. Including taking neutral observers hostage. But alas, terrorists be terrorists. Negotiations have been offered and denied on multiple occasions (offered by all involved parties!) while they kept seizing governmental buildings and attacking their forces. Diplomacy has failed, now root them out with an iron fist.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 16:04:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:11:48
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Sigvatr wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:Again, the government did not even attempt to negotiate with the seperatists.
Again, the terrorists did not even attempt to negotiate with the other parties. Get your facts straight.
They said "We want Russia!" and denied every single attempt by either side to get into contact for negotiations. Including taking neutral observers hostage. But alas, terrorists be terrorists.
Negotiations have been offered and denied on multiple occasions (offered by all involved parties!) while they kept seizing governmental buildings and attacking their forces.
Diplomacy has failed, now root them out with an iron fist.
'They said "We want Russia!" That is incorrect. Most protesters did not want to join Russia at all, but just more autonomy.
And so far, the seperatists (unlike the military) have not been terrorising the local population, (which for a majority also consists of seperatists btw) so calling them terrorists is ridiculous.
''Negotiations have been offered and denied on multiple occasions'' Please point me to where the Ukrainian government offered to negotiate with the seperatists, as I seem to have forgotten
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:12:46
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet interviewed the Russian envoy Sergej Markov, I've included a translation (made by myself, meaning any translation errors are all my fault):
Svenska Dagbladet wrote:
Putin's man warns about Swedish "Rusophobia"
Sergej Markov, Putin's personal envoy, considers Sweden to be one of the most Rusophobic in Europe. He warns that a World War could be the result if Russia is pushed into a corner.
-Five, six countries are at the forefront of European Rusophobia: Sweden, Poland, the Baltic countries, and Finland. In the cases of Sweden and Poland this hatred of Russia can be explained with old great-power-complexes, in the case of Lithuania and Estonia it's a case of politics. The Rusophobia in Finland, on the other hand, is incomprehensible, seeing as Finland's benefitted from the increase in trade with Russia. Everything points to Sweden and the Baltic nations having influenced Finland, says Sergej Markov, Putin's doverennoje litso.
The title means he [Markov] is the Russian president's personal envoy and represents him [Putin] in public.
Markov is a political scientist and heads his own think-tank, Institute for political research. He is also a member of the Civic Chamber of the Russian Federation, and a known hawk whose ideas are close to Putin's. And he has the president's ear.
-Vladimir Putin and I meet between one and three times a month. I became his personal envoy during the run-up to the 2012 presidential election. Back then we met every week. After the election he [Putin] announced that I had his continued confidence, says Markov.
SvD interviews Markov at Hotel Kosmos in Moscow, where he is opening a seminar for media directors of the region. During his entire opening speech the microphone is malfunctioning. Markov speaks for 40 minutes without the audience hearing a thing. No one dares say anything.
When SvD asks Markov about the deterioration of security policy in Europe he gets upset and almost snarls:
Enough with Russia being treated as inferior! The view of Russians in Europe today is the same as that regarding Jews in times past. Your goal is to destroy Russia. But you will not succeed. Napoleon tried, Hitler tried, without success. You'll destroy Europe instead.
How does this hatred of Russia manifest?
For example the monstrous lies about Ukraine. The claim that Porosjenko was elected in free and fair elections. It's like claiming Bashar al-Assad was democratically elected.
Russia supports al-Assad.
We support those who show understanding for ethnic minorities. The minorities in Syria, the Christians, the Alawites, the Circassians, pray to God that al-Assad remains president. In Ukraine people are killed because they want to elect their own governors and stick to their right to speak their native Russian language. Why does Europe refuse to see this? People were being murdered in Odessa, but your Western media doesn't report on that. Despite the culprit being obvious.
Markov warns for the consequences of cornering Russia.
-Antisemitism started the Second World War, Rusophobia could start a Third. The major problem is that NATO is trying to create artificial conflicts. NATO is no longer needed, it has lost its right to exist and is as a result looking for new purposes. NATO is de facto an American organisation. The American military budget is bigger than the rest of the world combined! The US is arming itself at an alarming rate and is also creating private armies of mercenaries that no one controls, like Blackwater. These developments are extremely dangerous.
What is going to happen in Ukraine?
The most likely solution is the Bosnian scenario. That is, an ethnicity-based federation. Eastern Ukraine becomes the federation of Novorossija, including Donetsk, Luhansk, Charkiv, Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk, and Zaporozjie.
But the separatists only control two of those cities
The others will join their struggle sooner or later. They can't accept the Ukranian nationalists either. In Russia we have to hold back a large stream of volunteers that want to go to Ukraine to protect their brethren. The pressure on Russia to intervene is steadily mounting, 70 percent of the Russian people want Russia to intervene in eastern Ukraine. But Putin doesn't want to. He wants a federation.
There's a number of Russian volunteers in Donbass. Apparently you didn't manage to hold them back
Many more have been stopped at the border.
The separatists are seemingly receiving military aid from Russia
Have you seen how out-of-date their missiles are? Russia has the best anti-air systems in the world. The Rebels are using 1970's weapons. But if the Kiev government doesn't stop using violence against their own people, we will be forced to aid the rebels - with both hardware and men.
Two spontaneous thoughts:
1. People being murdered in Odessa? I'm pretty sure they would've pushed that harder if they could back it up.
2. US defense expenditure greater than the rest of the world combined? Hardly.
I also think it's rather interesting that he can't see any reason the last 100 years for Finland to fear the Bear. There are still Karelians alive who remember.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:13:52
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Morphing Obliterator
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Sigvatr wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:Again, the government did not even attempt to negotiate with the seperatists.
Again, the terrorists did not even attempt to negotiate with the other parties. Get your facts straight.
They said "We want Russia!" and denied every single attempt by either side to get into contact for negotiations. Including taking neutral observers hostage. But alas, terrorists be terrorists.
Negotiations have been offered and denied on multiple occasions (offered by all involved parties!) while they kept seizing governmental buildings and attacking their forces.
Diplomacy has failed, now root them out with an iron fist.
You appear to be suggesting that it is acceptable for the Ukrainian government to kill every militant. Do you have any idea how many people that is?
As a related point, killing so many people will (it already has) result in unarmed civilian casualties. What do you consider an acceptable ratio of armed militant deaths to civilian deaths?
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See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:45:00
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: (Interesting article) I also think it's rather interesting that he can't see any reason the last 100 years for Finland to fear the Bear. There are still Karelians alive who remember.
Finland one of the most russophobic countries? Hardly. Finland is actually one of the countries where I have barely encountered any russophobia. Relations between Finland and Russia have mostly been good, and most Russians have a very positive opinion of Finland. There is a lot of cooperation between Finland and Russia, and Finns and Russians have a lot of interaction with each other. Sure, the Finns have reasons to be mad at Russia, and the Russians have reasons to be mad at the Finns (*cough* Leningrad *cough*), but since the end of the continuation war, things have been fine. I do not think there are many Finns who can still get worked up about Karelia. After all, Finland thanks its independence to Russia. Russia conquered Finland from the Swedes, and after 108 years in the Russian Empire, in which the Finns were treated well (unlike the Poles for example, who have a genuine reason to be mad at the Russians), and were granted independence by the Bolsheviks after the Finns expressed their desire to be independent. Without Russia, Finland might still have been a part of Sweden today...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 16:47:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 16:54:20
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Modern Russia =/= the communist Soviet Union.
If Finland, Poland and other countries still bitter about The Soviet Union's (undoubted) crimes during WW2 have the right to still bear a grudge against modern Russia and continue that hostility and enmity today, then by that logic most of Europe (and especially Russia) still have the right to bear a grudge against Germany because...you know, the Nazis.
But of course, Modern Germany =/= Nazi Germany.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 17:33:39
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Modern Russia =/= the communist Soviet Union.
If Finland, Poland and other countries still bitter about The Soviet Union's (undoubted) crimes during WW2 have the right to still bear a grudge against modern Russia and continue that hostility and enmity today, then by that logic most of Europe (and especially Russia) still have the right to bear a grudge against Germany because...you know, the Nazis.
But of course, Modern Germany =/= Nazi Germany.
But Germany changed much more radically than Russia. The Bundesrepublik is virtually unrecognizable from the the Third Reich, whereas the Russian Federation, especially under Putin, is much closer to its Soviet roots.
Aside from that, Russia has a very, very long history of militarism, nationalism and conquest, and to be honest, the Russian Federation does not seem to be very different in that regard. The 'All belongs to Mother Russia' mentality is still very much present, while in Germany, 'Drang nach Osten' and 'Lebensraum' ire almost considered obscenities. They even deleted the first stanza from their anthem.
Now of course you can't blame Soviet actions on present-day Russia, but the Poles and other former subject peoples still have a valid reasons to be wary of the Russians.
I may love Russia, yet that does not mean I am completely blind to its faults.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 03:23:56
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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The missile strikes were in support of fighting for border positions in the outskirts of the city.
It's also obvious that neither side wants to try diplomacy at the moment.
Exactly what diplomacy is the Ukraine supposed to be attempting? They are dealing with people with no list of demands, who are seizing government buildings through force of arms. It absolutely fething staggers me that anyone on Earth would argue the response ought to be asking the attackers what they would like.
I don't discount that possibility. Given that they have access to the Crimean armouries, and they have taken a metric gak tonne of weapons and vehicles from the Ukrainian military, it's possible.
When insurgents rely on pilfered guns, it looks like the Algerian insurgency, or the Malayan Emergency. Lots of low level operations, almost entirely small arms and not even that much. Where larger operations occur they rely on large numbers, but even then sustained fighting is impossible.
That's not what is happening in the Ukraine. There we are seeing very well equipped troops, who've undertaken quite a lot of fighting and showing no sign of supply shortages. You just cannot sustain that kind of fighting by stealing stuff off the other side.
Assuming you believe that the vast majority of the militants weapons come from Russia. You still haven't provided any evidence of that.
I explained why it is quite obvious, because the alternative is that the insurgents have managed to find a black market supplier in a matter of months and the funds to pay them, or they're making the weapons out of cans and lackey bands, or it's just stuff they've nicked off the Ukrainians. As all those options are silly, we're left with the reality that Russia is supporting the insurgents.
Yes, it's an interim government which is currently waging war against it's own people. I can't see any reason why people might not like it.
If the question were why people might not like the government, you might have a point.
 EDIT: And when people don't want to listen to a government they don't like, branding it as illegitimate is the easiest option.
Who cares if its easy? It's nonsense. Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fighting in the outskirts of the city...
Wtf..
Let me get this straight...
Ukraine's government was overthrown. The western half of the country liked that idea. The eastern half of the country didn't.
Yeah, look at that sharply divided electorate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That picture is awkward, but it can't be anywhere near as awkward as that whole trip must have been for Angela Merkel.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/09 03:48:21
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 17:07:27
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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sebster wrote:
It's also obvious that neither side wants to try diplomacy at the moment.
Exactly what diplomacy is the Ukraine supposed to be attempting? They are dealing with people with no list of demands, who are seizing government buildings through force of arms. It absolutely fething staggers me that anyone on Earth would argue the response ought to be asking the attackers what they would like.
Suggesting the seperatists have no list of demands is hilariously incorrect. If they have no demands, than why did they take to the streets?
It saddens me that you embrace violence so fervently like this. If you can avoid violence by having a good conversation and making compromises, than how can that be anything but good?
You should always, always try diplomacy first. If that fails, than you can still resort to barbaric violence.
A question for you: Did you also support Yanukovich's crackdown on the armed protesters occupying government buildings?
sebster wrote:
I don't discount that possibility. Given that they have access to the Crimean armouries, and they have taken a metric gak tonne of weapons and vehicles from the Ukrainian military, it's possible.
When insurgents rely on pilfered guns, it looks like the Algerian insurgency, or the Malayan Emergency. Lots of low level operations, almost entirely small arms and not even that much. Where larger operations occur they rely on large numbers, but even then sustained fighting is impossible.
That's not what is happening in the Ukraine. There we are seeing very well equipped troops, who've undertaken quite a lot of fighting and showing no sign of supply shortages. You just cannot sustain that kind of fighting by stealing stuff off the other side.
Assuming you believe that the vast majority of the militants weapons come from Russia. You still haven't provided any evidence of that.
I explained why it is quite obvious, because the alternative is that the insurgents have managed to find a black market supplier in a matter of months and the funds to pay them, or they're making the weapons out of cans and lackey bands, or it's just stuff they've nicked off the Ukrainians. As all those options are silly, we're left with the reality that Russia is supporting the insurgents.
You have absolutely no idea as to the huge stockpiles in the Crimean armouries. As a result of the Cold War, Ukraine has a huge stockpile of weaponry. Crimea alone contains enough guns to supply entire armies, and the insurgents also captured several bases in the East. There is no need for them to have gotten anything from Russia or the Black Market.
sebster wrote:Yes, it's an interim government which is currently waging war against it's own people. I can't see any reason why people might not like it.
If the question were why people might not like the government, you might have a point.
 EDIT: And when people don't want to listen to a government they don't like, branding it as illegitimate is the easiest option.
Who cares if its easy? It's nonsense.
So you think the original uprising against Yanukovich was also nonsense? And the one against Assad? And Ghadaffi? And the founding of the US was also nonsense?
sebster wrote:
Wtf..
Let me get this straight...
Ukraine's government was overthrown. The western half of the country liked that idea. The eastern half of the country didn't.
Yeah, look at that sharply divided electorate.

Yes indeed. This is the relevant picture you are looking for. Poroshenko was not part of the original government, nor of the coup-imposed interim government. The original government was very popular in the East, but not in the West. It is the reverse with the interim government.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 04:03:08
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Iron_Captain wrote:No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate. Immediatly sending in the army and bombing civilian targets and pretty much starting a civil war is not something that a democratic government is supposed to do. Using so much violence against anti-government protesters is something that fits more with Stalin or other authoritarian regimes. I find it weird that you can not understand this.
I take it that you are also a staunch supporter of Bashar al-Assad and Muammar Khadaffi? They also loved to use violence against protesters...
If you want to protest and petition the government, then you march in the streets. If you want to force government out then you take over government buildings armed with military weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron_Captain wrote:It saddens me that you embrace violence so fervently like this. If you can avoid violence by having a good conversation and making compromises, than how can that be anything but good?
You should always, always try diplomacy first. If that fails, than you can still resort to barbaric violence.
A question for you: Did you also support Yanukovich's crackdown on the armed protesters occupying government buildings?
I didn't make a false show of moral outrage, like some people here. Because I understand how government works. If you use force to break the laws of government, the government responds with force. Pretending to be outraged when that happens is fundamentally false.
You have absolutely no idea as to the huge stockpiles in the Crimean armouries. As a result of the Cold War, Ukraine has a huge stockpile of weaponry. Crimea alone contains enough guns to supply entire armies, and the insurgents also captured several bases in the East. There is no need for them to have gotten anything from Russia or the Black Market.
Oh, so the guns aren't being supplied by Russia. They're being supplied out of stores in Crimea, which just so happens to be under Russian control. That's totally different. Good point there. Well done.
Poroshenko was not part of the original government, nor of the coup-imposed interim government. The original government was very popular in the East, but not in the West. It is the reverse with the interim government.
At this point you're asking people to believe that the situation is desperate enough to justify taking over government buildings and seperate from the rest of the country, but not desperate enough for a majority of people in the East to vote for a different president.
It's beyond ridiculous.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 05:51:16
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 05:25:15
Subject: Re:Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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sebster wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:No, the weirdness is the excessive use of violence by the Ukrainian military. Normally, when government buildings are occupied by angry protesters, the government tries to negotiate. Immediatly sending in the army and bombing civilian targets and pretty much starting a civil war is not something that a democratic government is supposed to do. Using so much violence against anti-government protesters is something that fits more with Stalin or other authoritarian regimes. I find it weird that you can not understand this.
I take it that you are also a staunch supporter of Bashar al-Assad and Muammar Khadaffi? They also loved to use violence against protesters...
If you want to protest and petition the government, then you march in the streets. If you want to force government out then you take over government buildings armed with military weapons.
And don't complain when they shoot back.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 05:47:51
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Everytime I'm reading Iron_Captain's posts I wonder if that is how our international posters are feeling everytime they read "hurr durr 'MURICA" posts about our military operations...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 06:40:34
Subject: Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!
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Posts with Authority
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d-usa wrote:Everytime I'm reading Iron_Captain's posts I wonder if that is how our international posters are feeling everytime they read "hurr durr 'MURICA" posts about our military operations...
... jealous?
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